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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Family Estrangement Is on the Rise. Are Politics to Blame?
00:28:45
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- [00:02]
A
Hey everyone, it's Tyler. I'd like to ask for your help with something. We're currently conducting a survey of our audience and we want to hear from you. As a Political Scene listener, this is one of the best ways for us to learn about what you value as a listener and a chance for you to help shape the future of our podcast. Whether it's a dream guest for the show or thoughts on your favorite episodes, we really want to hear from you. As a token of our appreciation, you'll be eligible to enter a prize drawing of up to $1,000 after you complete the surve. You can find links to the survey in our episode and show notes. Thanks so much for listening to the Political Scene from the New Yorker. Displacement is at its highest level since World War II, but more than $1 billion in essential programs are being cut just as needs grow. Families forced to flee war are arriving in camps hungry, cold and exhausted. With your support, unhcr, the UN refugee agency, provides essentials for emergencies. Warm clothes, blankets, cooking sets, and shelter materials help families survive the deadly winter ahead. Donate@unrefugees.org Scene. Hi Anna. Hi. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
- [01:28]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [01:29]
A
So Thanksgiving is around the corner, and this is obviously a time where a lot of people are kind of anticipating having difficult political conversations with their family or just difficult conversations in general. And then there's also the more extreme version of this, where people aren't going home at all. And you've written about the concept at its most extreme, which is this idea of family estrangement or going no contact. Is this a concept that you think is on the rise?
- [01:57]
B
Yes. When I started reporting on estrangement, I was shocked to discover that by some estimates, 27% of Americans are estranged from at least one relative. And that is a number that some psychologists think is rising. The kind of research on estrangement is in its infancy, but there's a lot of evidence to show that it is growing and some of it is politically motivated.
- [02:30]
A
That's Anna Russell, a contributing writer at the New Yorker. Last year, Anna wrote a piece about the rise of family estrangement, why more people are choosing to go no contact. I wanted to talk with Anna about how politics figures into decisions to cut off contact with family members, what's driving the broader increase in family estrangement, and whether reconciliation is possible both within individual relationships and perhaps across our civic life. This is the Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggit and I'm a senior editor at the New Yorker. So let's talk more about what estrangement actually means. Like, your piece is a lot about this idea of going no contact. So what exactly does that entail? Like, is it just exactly what it sounds like, Just kind of making a decision, I am not going to speak to this person or text them ever again, even if they are my mom. Or is it a little bit more subtle than that, where it's like, maybe I'll kind of have this distant relationship with her and I won't go home for Thanksgiving, but, like, I don't know, maybe I'll send her a birthday card every now and then.
- [03:29]
B
Yeah. So I think there's a wide range of types of estrangement. And no contact is what it sounds like. No contact. You're not contacting your family, you're not accepting contact from them. You've asked them to stop contacting you, maybe, except in case of certain emergencies. But there's also a very low contact and low contact, which are just sort of more distanced relationships that you might have. Like, you might occasionally send a birthday card or go over to somebody's house for Thanksgiving, for instance. But, yeah, no contact is what it sounds like. No contact.
- [04:04]
A
And do you think, like, I feel like back in the day, the idea of, you know, like, if I were to say, like, I just don't speak to this person in my life, that would almost be taboo. I feel like I see on social media, like, a lot of people not necessarily bragging, but being very open about the fact that they have gone no contact. And so I wonder if it's almost something that you could characterize almost as like a trend. I mean, I feel like they're like influencers. Their whole thing is they're no contact influencers.
- [04:30]
B
I would say there's a community of people who have decided to go no contact. And you see that online on TikTok, and you see it on Reddit forums. There's a really engaged Reddit forum for estranged adult children, meaning children who have grown up and then cut off contact with their parents. And on these forums, you see different, different forms of lingo, like no contact, low contact. And you see a lot of people posting about difficulties they've had in their families and then asking for responses from other people in the community. And I think that can lead to a sense of belonging. And so I do see that as a growing thing.
- [05:10]
A
So you wrote this piece back in August of 2024. Although it's something that kind of periodically goes viral, I feel like I saw a lot of people Talking about this piece even just a few months ago online. And so I'm curious, what made you want to ex examine this phenomenon last year?
- [05:26]
B
Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, it was first brought to my attention by an editor and then when I started looking into it, I learned just how common it is. And that was really shocking to me. And then secondly, I was expecting a baby at the time that I started working on the story. And so I was thinking a lot about family dynamics, what kind of relationship I would have to my child and vice versa. I think that stuff is always interesting, like how families work or don't work.
- [05:57]
A
Yeah, no, it's funny, I assume you weren't thinking at the time about the idea of like your own kid going no contact with you.
- [06:06]
B
I mean they were very like full on contact at that time. But you know, it's a really hard. It's a hard subject because basically, yeah, I started, I started reporting it when I was expecting and then I took a break after I gave birth. And then I, I took quite a long time on maternity leave. And when I came back to it, I was a parent. So I sort of had like two separate perspectives of sort of not having had that parenting experience and then having had it when I came back to finish the story. So it became quite personal in some ways and difficult. And I really felt for both sides. The parents who had been cut off and the kids who had made their own path.
- [06:53]
A
So I want to talk to you about how you arrived at the decision to focus on a woman named Amy who sort of provides our way into this topic of family estrangement.
- [07:02]
B
Well, I thought Amy's story was really interesting because it existed in kind of this, this area that was more about worldview and political differences than, you know, there are some forms of estrangement that are clearly a good thing for the adult child, like physical abuse, sexual abuse. And you can really understand that. But I wanted to look at a case where it might be more difficult for some people to understand and it might be kind of this worldview difference where a younger generation is thinking about things in a different way than an older generation. And also it's political. Like Amy had very serious political differences with her family. And also Amy was very articulate and very kind to share her side of the story with me.
- [07:53]
A
Yeah, I want to talk more about the kind of like more abstract causes of family estrangement because like, as you mentioned, there are these really concrete reasons like abuse and then there are these other concepts, like the idea of going no Contact because you have a parent who is narcissistic or toxic, which is interesting because some of that stuff is just so subjective. So I guess I'm. I'm curious, like, if you. You think that that kind of latter category of, like, you were separating yourself from this person because they're toxic or because you don't agree with their political beliefs, like, if that just kind of leads to a thornier kind of estrangement, Like, I mean, I think it's definitely thornier in the way that, like, the, you know, the public might view it or just, like, the way that you explain it to your friends. Like, they might be more likely to disagree with you in a way where, like, you know, if someone is like, I'm not talking to my dad because he sexually abused me, it's. It'd be hard to find someone who doesn't agree with that decision. But I guess, like, do you think that it weighs on them more when their decision for the estrangement is one that could so easily be, you know, picked apart by someone with a different worldview?
- [08:59]
B
Yeah. And I think. I think it's really hard for people who are making that decision for adult children who are trying to go no contact from their parents to explain to other people that it's because of politics or it's because of a worldview difference. There is a strong bias in our culture towards keeping families together. Right. Like, everyone wants a happy family. At the same time, there is this movement among younger people to go to therapy and sort of, like, talk about their family relations and maybe see their parents more as individuals rather than parents as part of a family unit. And if you see your parents more as individuals, you can find their flaws and you can sort of distance yourself from them in an easier way. So I think that is something that a lot of the experts I spoke to spoke about the younger generation as seeing the family unit in a different way, less dutiful and more like a romantic relationship. Like, you should get something that you want from it and both sides should be happy. Yeah.
- [10:05]
A
Like, the idea that it's like a relationship, the relationship with your family is not one that is kind of like involuntary. Like, you can kind of choose whether to opt in or not, which is like, a funny way to think about, like, you know, your parents.
- [10:19]
B
But, yeah, I mean, you can't really choose who, you know, the family you're born into. But as you get older, you, in our culture can make a decision to cut off contact, to have a family with friends instead. So I wanted to look at a case that was, that was that kind of estrangement.
- [10:36]
A
So let's take a break and then when we get back, I want to talk more about the role that politics might play in deciding to go no Contact with the Family this is the political scene from the New Yorker.
- [10:51]
B
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- [11:21]
C
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- [12:35]
A
So Anna, I want to talk about how politics in particular figures into the research you did for this piece and the conversations you had with people who experienced family estrangement over politics. To what extent does this start and end with Donald Trump? Like when you spoke to people who had broken with their family over politics. Was it usually a, a Trump thing or did you have, you know, like in New York, there are a lot of I did this piece about political anxiety in the lead up to the mayoral election and spoke to a lot of therapists who spend like a Lot of time kind of dealing with patients who are struggling to kind of connect with their children or their parents over politics. And one thing that often came up was this idea of like, you know, you have a mom who supports Andrew Cuomo and is really worried about mom Donnie ruining the city. And then you have a kid who was like, energized politically for the first time in years because of mom Donnie. And so there's almost like a inter party conflict. And so I guess I'm just curious how much of the conversations that you were having with people who had gone no contact with their family was basically just like, about Trump versus more sideways issues that have to do with politics.
- [13:45]
B
Yeah, I think Trump. Trump was in there for sure. But I think when I was reporting it, a lot of people were dealing with issues related to the pandemic. And, you know, the pandemic, like, brought up lots of questions about vaccination, social distancing, lifestyle. In the case of Amy, she was really like pro vaccine and social distancing, whereas her family was not. And that created a lot of struggles for them to see eye to eye on that.
- [14:16]
A
So when it comes to Amy, it seems like the rupture between her and her family sort of stemmed from the fact that she was getting married and she wanted her parents to get vaccinated before she had her wedding so that they could attend, and they refused to. And that is what led to the family unit sort of dissolving. Which makes me wonder, you know, when we talk about politics leading to family estrangement, do you think that it more often happens because of, like, some kind of specific incident like that? Like, it seems to me from reading your piece that it is unlikely that someone is going to have like a really bad conversation at the dinner table, like a bad political argument that then leads to going no contact. It seems like there has to be some kind of, like, you know, climactic event that then sort of leads to someone making that decision.
- [15:03]
B
I think it ends up being a lot of small things and then one big thing, usually like the straw that breaks camel's back or whatever. In the stories that I heard, at least the way the people that I spoke to were telling them, it was like they would trace a long history of disagreements that led to one final fight and then they cut off contact after that. I mean, some people had a sort of slow removal, like less and less contact and not even declaring that they're fully, fully leaving the relationship, just sort of backing away slowly. But others sent, like, Amy sent a specific note Saying, do not contact me again.
- [15:42]
A
One of the experts you quoted in your piece is someone named Joshua Coleman, who says that one of the reasons why estrangement is becoming more common is that we're seeing these changing notions of what constitutes harmful, abusive, traumatizing, or neglectful behavior. I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit more about that idea. Like, kind of your sense of something that may not have been seen as harmful or traumatizing several years ago that now is kind of considered to be that. And then if you think that there's a world in which that framing can apply to politics, too, like our notions of what constitutes unacceptable behavior or beliefs has. Has changed.
- [16:23]
B
Yeah. So I think what Josh Coleman was saying was that, you know, our understanding of what is a traumatic event has changed over time. And like, a couple generations ago, you know, it was more common for. For parents to be very strict, to discipline their children physically in some cases, and now we might find some of those things unacceptable. He also pointed out that there's been a rise of people attending therapy, and that has kind of opened up this whole sort of understanding of family dynamics that is different than our parents or their parents might have had. And Josh Coleman said something really interesting, which was that, you know, therapists sort of unconsciously reflect the biases of their own time, and our time is one that really values independence. So you might have a therapist advising independence and encouraging severing ties.
- [17:20]
A
Yeah, I wanted to ask about that. Like, to what extent did the sources you spoke with basically say, I'm doing this in part because my therapist recommended it, versus, like, they had a conversation with their therapist that made them realize that this dynamic they were describing was really abusive and harmful, and then that kind of empowered them to make the decision to walk away from their family completely.
- [17:43]
B
I'd say most people said that they were thinking about it already, and they sort of talked about their decision with their therapist and worked out how to do it in a way that seemed safe and feasible, or they started seeing their therapist after. After they had broken with their family to sort of process that. One thing that I noticed across the board was that it's not. It was not easy for anyone, even after they had severed ties. Like, it was something that they were processing with their therapist or with others for a long time, no matter what their decision was to stay in the relationship or to cut it off.
- [18:25]
A
So in a minute, I want to talk about what it looks like when people try to reconcile and resume contact with their family. This is the political scene from the New Yorker. Hi, it's Lacey Healey. This season on Things that Go Boom, we're taking on the military industrial complex because the same industry that profits off of foreign wars and puts tanks on our streets also has a huge everyday impact on our own communities.
- [18:58]
B
This love story about these weapons becomes a distraction from what they're being used for.
- [19:06]
A
The next season of Things that go boom drops September 22nd. At one point in your piece, you bring up the idea of reconciliation, and I want to talk about that both on a micro and macro level. Based on your research and conversations. How common is it for someone to come back from estrangement and recultivate a relationship, be it a close relationship or just a civil one? And what does that process look like?
- [19:41]
B
Yeah, so I got pretty different answers on this depending on who I spoke with. There was one psychologist in California, Sherry Campbell, and she usually sees people who have already cut ties and are kind of processing that decision. And she said she does not see a lot of reconciliations. But then when I spoke to Joshua Coleman, he said that if the parent is able this is between parent and children. There are lots of different types of estrangement, but specifically between parents and children, if the parent is able to get the child to attend family therapy with them, and if the parent is also able to respect the child's boundaries regarding when and how often to talk to them, then the chance of reconciliation is quite high. That's what he sees.
- [20:31]
A
I gather there's also a good portion of people in the forums and online groups who don't think that reconciliation is a good idea. Right. I guess I'm wondering how this kind of connects with just this idea that our culture has given up on, the idea that people can change or that the burden should be placed on the child to get their parents to change.
- [20:54]
B
I think a lot of people in the estranged adult child kind of community are not looking to reconcile. Right. You know, when I sort of was looking at this issue, like, I think it might change over time, but there is a strong thread of people who just think it's better to let it lie. And that is not a goal of theirs. But then there's a bunch of people who are sort of ambivalent who maybe would like it to work but don't know how to approach it beyond just severing completely. So I think there's a broad range.
- [21:30]
A
I mean, you mentioned earlier that you sort of had conflicted feelings about this topic as you were reporting, in part because, like, you kind of, it seems like you kind of went from the experience of thinking about it in terms of, like, what it would mean for you to cut off contact with people in your life. To, like, then having a child and thinking about what it would mean for a child to make a decision like this, whether it's cutting off contact with you or other people in the family. And so I guess I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit more about, like, where you landed with all of this. Like, do you think that. I know it's kind of. It's tough. Cause we try to be neutral in our pieces. But, like, do you think that the fact that family estrangement is on the rise. Like, is it a sign of a healthy culture, an unhealthy one? Maybe a mixture? Yeah.
- [22:18]
B
I mean, it's really hard. It's a hard subject. I think in a lot of cases, the people I spoke to who had cut ties seemed like a weight had been lifted from their shoulders and they were able to kind of get on with their normal life. But then I did speak to some parents, and the grief that a parent feels when a child cuts them off is a lot. And it's a really difficult kind of a complex kind of grief because it's not like their child is dead. It's just that they won't speak to them, you know, so they can't really mourn their child. They're just in this kind of, you know, extended grief that doesn't have a lot of closure. And then. Yeah. I mean, from the parent perspective, when you raise a child, you obviously put in so much time, so many years and late nights and, you know, colds and everything. And then to lose that relationship when you're older, I think there's a sense of identity loss that comes. That comes with that. So I think that is really difficult. What I landed on is I generally think that cutting off contact completely. I didn't see a ton of positives to that after reporting this piece. There were some, like. Some people I spoke with seemed relieved, but they also still felt a lot of sadness and a sense of loss. And I generally think that if there's any way to have a small amount of contact, it would be better than no contact at all. But obviously it's a very personal decision.
- [23:57]
A
Do you see this as something that is probably going to get worse over time? I mean, we were talking earlier just about like, the kind of, like, political fights that are happening now. And the fact that it seems like things have reached like a fever pitch. And so I guess I wonder whether you think we're going to be continuing to see this sort of conflict in people deciding to go no contact, like, if it's just inevitable that this is going to become a more ubiquitous topic, or if there's any way for our family bonds to become more sacrosanct in the way that they used to be?
- [24:30]
B
I mean, the short answer is I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it's helping to have to have so much acrimonious public debate constantly that will always bring up issues between people. I think something that Josh Coleman said that has stuck with me was that he always advises parents who are trying to make amends to write a letter of apology that is very, very specific to the child and kind of trying to really get in their headspace and recognize what the grievances might be. So I think that would be a good place to start. But, yeah, I don't know, in terms of where we're heading, it's. Yeah, it's a difficult time.
- [25:09]
A
That's interesting that Coleman recommends for parents who want to kind of rekindle bonds with their kids to confront the subject head on. I would have thought that, like, just thinking about my own experiences, kind of dealing with friends and family members with different kind of, like, warring political beliefs, it's almost like the things that keep us together most are, you know, like, our mutual love of things that have nothing to do with politics. It's like, you know, we both really care a lot about basketball. Or, like, you can almost imagine a strategy, too, that's just like, okay, we're just not gonna talk about, you know, the vaccine stuff at all. And maybe we won't see each other in person because you're worried that I'm unvaccinated. And I might give you Covid, but, like, let's talk on the phone about, you know, Madonna, if we both really love Madonna.
- [26:01]
B
Yeah. I mean, that would be one approach that could work. Just stick to Madonna, nothing else.
- [26:06]
A
Yeah. Maybe a lot of dinner conversations for Thanksgiving about Madonna. That could be the way to do it.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah. Stick to the weather and your health.
- [26:16]
A
So I'm wondering if you could talk about your own experiences navigating conflict with your family or close loved ones. It sounds like you haven't had the experience of going no contact, but I feel like everyone has had some experience of dealing with a family member who has a different worldview than them. And, you know, even just thinking about the fact that, you know, you were recently pregnant, and there are a lot of boundaries that people often set during pregnancy in terms of, like, you know, I can only see this person if they're vaccinated or if they can commit to, you know, stopping smoking. So I'm just curious if this is something that you've had to navigate yourself.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that's true that when you have a baby, there are all sorts of rules that suddenly become very important to you that other people might not necessarily respect. We had a difficult birth and a long hospital stay, and when we came out, we had to be very, very careful and isolated for a couple months. And it was really hard to tell friends that they couldn't come over into our actual house to meet the baby. Most of them were very respectful of that and having to ask relatives to get vaccinated. But I can imagine that that would be really difficult if they refused flat out, because I wouldn't allow them to come if they said no. Have you had any experiences navigating those kinds of conversations?
- [27:40]
A
Totally. I mean, I think during the pandemic, there were a lot even just like, with. I didn't have anyone in my family who refused to get vaccinated, but I do think that there were different standards in terms of, did you get this vaccination versus this other shot? And, yeah, I mean, just politically, there's a lot too. I think listeners of the podcast know that my family's pretty hardcore when it comes to Trump and MAGA stuff. And I don't know, it's interesting because, like, I mean, I'll just be honest. I find the concept of. I think that when someone goes no contact because, you know, they've experienced, like, physical abuse or emotional abuse, like just something really terrible like that. It totally makes sense to me. But I do feel like there has been this creep of, you know, people making these pretty massive decisions based on what seem to me to be almost like simple political disagreements. And I feel like I'm also surprised by, like, how often someone and I might not have the same political worldview, but, like, there actually is, like, a decent amount of overlap. And so I always find the conversations I have with people who, you know, people in my family who don't agree with me to be really useful. It just, like, helps me understand, you know, how people are feeling about things, like, actual people. I will say that their. Their distaste for the New Yorker, though, can. Can grind my gears a bit. So my dad and I will sometimes fight about how, you know, like, I shouldn't work here and I should instead work at Fox News or the national review, and then I'll be like, that.
- [29:18]
B
Would be pretty hard turn for you.
- [29:19]
A
Yeah, yeah, that would be. That would be an interesting career trajectory. But then I'll, like, send him, you know, like, an amazing Ben Taub piece on hot air balloons or, like, you know, like, some of our music criticism. You know, it's like, maybe he's not gonna, you know, be reading, like, our sort of, like, hardest Trump coverage. But I do think that, like, there's a lot of stuff that we do at the New Yorker that doesn't have anything to do with politics, even though I do host our politics podcast. And so it's just. It's focusing on that stuff.
- [29:48]
B
And so you guys have found a way to talk to each other about differences, but in a sort of respectful way.
- [29:54]
A
Yeah, it's like, there have been times where he has, like, highlighted things in pieces or even, like, conversations I've had on this podcast where he's like, but you didn't account for this. And I'm like, you know what? That's actually, like, a pretty reasonable take. And so I think, like, it can be so useful to kind of see things from the other side.
- [30:13]
B
And I think, like, the level of engagement that he has with your work is actually quite sweet. Like, he's listening to your podcast, and, you know, it's not like he's written you off. Like, he's really trying to engage with it.
- [30:24]
A
Totally. I mean, I think that's what happens when, like, there's kind of this, like, implicit understanding that neither one of us will ever write the other one off. When that happens, you truly can say anything to each other. But, yeah, it's like, there's truly nothing that really any of my family members could say to me that I think would make me want to go. No contact. But I also say that as someone who has had, like, for the most part, like, a pretty good family experience, but Thanksgiving will be fun. Yeah, I look forward to Thanksgiving. I'm preparing for Thanksgiving. Yeah. I'm gonna read up, do all my research, and then come in with my talking points.
- [31:04]
B
A bullet point.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah, we should actually record it. And that can be the Thanksgiving bonus episode of the Political Scene, a follow up.
- [31:11]
B
Yeah.
- [31:17]
A
Well, thank you so much for being here, Anna.
- [31:19]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [31:24]
A
Anna Russell is a contributing writer for the New Yorker. You can find her piece, why so Many People are Going no Contact with their parents@newyorker.com along with her latest piece, a profile of the director Rian Johnson. This has been the Political Scene from the New Yorker, I'm Tyler Foggatt. This episode was Produced by John LeMay with mixing by Mike Kutchman and engineering by Pran Bandy. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Chris Bannon is Conde Nastead of Global Audio. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Wednesday.
- [32:11]
D
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