From “Inside the Hive”: Gavin Newsom’s Risky Podcast Gambit

Summary

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Podcast Summary: From “Inside the Hive”: Gavin Newsom’s Risky Podcast Gambit

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker, featuring Inside the Hive (Vanity Fair)
Hosts & Guests: Radhika Jones, Claire Hoer, Michael Calderone
Original Air Date: March 28, 2025

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Overview

This episode is a lively, insider roundtable dissecting California Governor Gavin Newsom’s pivot into political podcasting with his new show, This Is Gavin Newsom. The conversation examines Newsom’s motivations, the high-wire political risks of his guest choices (notably right-wing figures), critical responses from the press, and whether cross-aisle dialogue can translate to presidential viability in 2028. The hosts also explore Newsom’s history, brand, and penchant for spectacle, raising the question—does a flashy podcast strategy engage voters or alienate them?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Impressions & Newsom’s Reputation

• Word Association Exercise:

  • “Eager. Sometimes looks opportunistic.” – Michael Calderone [03:38]
  • “Power hungry. Very tan, a little bit Hollywood. George Hamilton.” – Claire Hoer [03:54]
  • “Slick—mostly about his hair.” – Radhika Jones [04:06]

• Newsom, the Podcaster:
  Newsom is simultaneously governor of the world’s fifth-largest economy and a new podcast host. His show, This Is Gavin Newsom, aims for “real conversations”—especially with ideological adversaries.

  “Tackling tough questions, engaging with people who don’t always agree with me... debating without demeaning.” – Gavin Newsom (podcast description) [04:36]

2. Podcast Format & Guest Selection

• Guests Skew Right:
  Early episodes featured Charlie Kirk, Michael Savage, and Steve Bannon, all prominent right-wing figures.

  • “At times he succeeds in a spirited debate, but the podcasts can get really chummy... There are so many moments where it seems like Newsom is in agreement.” – Michael Calderone [06:04]
  • “He wasn’t really challenging [Bannon], especially when Steve mentioned over and over that Donald Trump won the 2020 election.” – Michael Calderone [06:04]

• Missed Opportunities for Pushback:

  • “If anybody ever offers you fodder that you should interrupt, it's that Donald Trump won in 2020 and he didn’t do it.” – Claire Hoer [07:09]

• Genre Hybrids: Newsom also has a second show, Politickin, cohosted with Marshawn Lynch.

  • “It’s not ostensibly a political show, more celebrity chat, but he’s segueing from that into ‘This Is Gavin Newsom’ as his wheelhouse for cross-aisle talk.” – Michael Calderone [07:55]

3. The Mechanics of Debate – Civil or Softball?

• Surface-Level ‘Debate’:
  Even when addressing controversial topics like trans athletes or the “defund the police” movement, true engagement is lacking.

  • “If there’s a deep disagreement, but what you end up with is just a lot of chuckles, it’s... hard to figure out where you go from there.” – Radhika Jones [08:23]

• A Notable Exchange:

  • On Trans Athletes:

    “I completely align with you, and we've got to own that.” – Gavin Newsom to Charlie Kirk [09:33]

  • “How did that sit with you?” – Michael Calderone
    • “Horribly.” – Claire Hoer [10:18]

• Right-Wing Rhetoric Flood:

  • “It’s a wad of right-wing buzzwords and you can’t really tell what to engage with... Newsom did not engage with it.” – Claire Hoer [10:18]
  • “He’s a little outgunned—he’s not a journalist.” – Radhika Jones [11:22]

4. Masculinity, Podcasting & Political Messaging

• Masculinity in Long-Form Media:
  • “Democrats cannot survive in long-form podcasting environments. It's too unscripted, it’s too masculine, honestly.” – Charlie Kirk [13:31]
  • “What is masculine about a podcast, honestly?” – Gavin Newsom [13:54]
  • “I do think Democrats should go in a variety of different media environments... but the idea that Trump or Musk are doing long-form, hard-hitting interviews—I’m not really hearing that.” – Michael Calderone [14:18]

5. Respect, Framing, and Platforming Opposing Views

• “It really bothered me... that Charlie Kirk calls it the Democrat Party, which is a well-known troll... and Newsom doesn’t call him on it. Come to my house, be on my podcast, let’s treat each other respectfully. He’s not getting that back.” – Radhika Jones [15:40]

• On Guest Selection Strategy:

  • “These are bad guys. But they exist... and they’re actually influencing young kids every single day. How do we push some of those guys back under a rock?” – Gavin Newsom (to Tim Walz) [17:21]
  • “Maybe by giving them a platform, aren’t you just amplifying their views?” – Michael Calderone [19:09]

6. Newsom’s Political Trajectory & Brand

• History:

  • Newsom’s first act as mayor—granting marriage licenses to same-sex couples in 2004—was far ahead of both the Democratic Party and the country.
    • “Even Barack Obama... didn’t want to be photographed with Newsom. Nancy Pelosi was against it.” – Michael Calderone [23:35]
  • “Getty money has followed him... He’s tried to downplay it, but members of the Getty family have invested in him for years.” – Michael Calderone [25:33]

• Personal Life & Spectacle:
  The hosts highlight moments like Newsom’s “new Kennedys” Harper’s Bazaar cover with then-wife Kimberly Guilfoyle, and social faux pas (French Laundry dinner during COVID).

  • “We can safely say Gavin Newsom is not afraid of spectacle.” – Radhika Jones [30:44]

7. Strategic Effectiveness & Liberal Backlash

• Base Not Impressed:

  • “Kamala Harris’s strategy of trying to appeal to Liz Cheney voters was not effective. Not only that, but it annoyed them.” – Radhika Jones [33:18]
  • “Midas Touch... topped Joe Rogan for a couple weeks, reaching liberals who are angry and want to see people fighting for pro-democracy values.” – Michael Calderone [33:31]
  • “Gavin Newsom having long chats with Michael Savage and Steve Bannon—is that going to reach the voters Democrats need in 2028?” – Michael Calderone [33:31]
  • “Michelle Goldberg... called the podcast ‘a protracted exercise in self-harm for both Newsom and any liberal who decides to listen to him.’” – Radhika Jones [34:45]

• False Equivalencies & Strategic Limitations:

  • “[It] seems like a really uphill idea to try to peel off the more entrenched folks on the right... what are the gains gonna be there? Those people are not gonna suddenly swing leftward.” – Claire Hoer [34:09]

8. Alternative Messaging & The AOC Model

• “It’s not about engaging Bannon or Kirk. It’s about the experience of people’s lives at a granular level.” – Radhika Jones [38:11]

• AOC’s Key Quote:

  “If these people’s lives don’t actually feel different, we’re done. That’s about their ability to make a decent living, their ability to afford eggs…” – AOC, quoted by Radhika Jones and Michelle Ruiz [38:11–39:40]

• Effective Engagement:

  • “AOC decided not to go [to Congress], went on Instagram instead and used that platform—felt it was a more effective use of her time.” – Michael Calderone [40:03]

9. Critique and Future Outlook

• Podcasting as a Political Tool:
  “It’s not a problem for him to take a stab at this, but maybe he’ll want to rethink the framing... or the guest booking so it’s not a string of right-wing guests.” – Michael Calderone [41:03]

• Newsom’s Team Responds:
  “They encouraged us to, quote, wait and give it more time.” – Radhika Jones [41:10]
  “Newsom is invited on our show anytime. We promise not to attempt to deprogram him.” – Radhika Jones [41:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Driving. Power hungry. George Hamilton—very tan, very shellacked, and a little bit Hollywood.” – Claire Hoer [03:54]
• “If anybody ever offers you fodder that you should interrupt, it’s that Donald Trump won in 2020 and he didn’t do it.” – Claire Hoer [07:09]
• “I completely align with you, and we’ve got to own that.” – Gavin Newsom to Charlie Kirk [09:33]
• “He’s not a journalist and is... a little outgunned.” – Radhika Jones [11:22]
• “Democrats cannot survive in long-form podcasting environments. It’s too unscripted, it’s too masculine, honestly.” – Charlie Kirk [13:31]
• “Come to my house... let’s treat each other respectfully. He’s not getting that back.” – Radhika Jones [15:40]
• “Maybe by giving them a platform, aren’t you just amplifying a lot of their views?” – Michael Calderone [19:09]
• “Michelle Goldberg... called [Newsom’s podcast] ‘a protracted exercise in self-harm for both Newsom and any liberal who decides to listen to him.’” – Radhika Jones [34:45]
• “If these people’s lives don’t actually feel different, we’re done.” – AOC (quoted by Radhika Jones) [38:11]

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Key Timestamps

• [03:25–05:36]: Hosts define Newsom's brand and discuss path to power.
• [06:04–08:23]: First impressions of This Is Gavin Newsom and guest strategy.
• [09:33–10:18]: Controversy over Newsom agreeing with Charlie Kirk on trans athletes.
• [13:31–14:10]: Masculinity in podcasting; Democrats in new media spaces.
• [17:21–18:02]: Newsom and Walz on the risk of platforming “bad guys.”
• [23:18–24:24]: Newsom’s political beginnings, same-sex marriage, and donor ties.
• [26:42–29:01]: Deep dive into “the photo shoot”: Newsom and Guilfoyle’s Harper’s Bazaar spread.
• [33:18–34:09]: Reflection on base enthusiasm and effectiveness of podcast for 2028 prospects.
• [38:11–39:40]: AOC’s approach to political messaging contrasted with Newsom’s.
• [41:10]: Governor’s comms team encourages patience for the podcast project.

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Final Thoughts

The episode paints Gavin Newsom as a master of political style, spectacle, and ambition—someone eager to transcend partisan echo chambers, but perhaps miscalculating the risks and rewards of his media strategy. With early podcast episodes that platform heavily right-wing voices and miss opportunities for substantive pushback, the hosts question whether Newsom’s gambit will rally new supporters or alienate his own base. The roundtable calls for more authentic, granular, and relatable messaging—à la AOC—and leaves open whether Newsom can recalibrate in time for 2028.

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Transcript

[Michael Colory]

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[Radhika Jones]

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[Michael Colory]

Hey everybody, it's Evan Osnos from the Political Scene podcast at the New Yorker. My co hosts Susan Glasser and Jane Mayer and I are off this week, but in the meantime we thought we'd share something fun that we've been listening to. Our friends at Vanity Fair have just relaunch Inside the Hive. It's an intelligent and very entertaining show. Don't worry, the Political Scene Roundtable will be back as usual next Friday and there will be plenty to talk about. Have a great weekend.

[Radhika Jones]

Okay, let's play our headline game. What are our draft Headline ideas for today's episode. As ever, no wrong answers.

[Michael Colory]

I mine. Okay, win. Some newsome. Cozying up to right wingers could cost California's govcaster with Democrats.

[Radhika Jones]

That's pretty good.

[Claire Hoer]

That was really good. Are you ready for this?

[Michael Colory]

I'm always ready for yours.

[Claire Hoer]

Not Gavin, it. Newsom's podcast to the people is a failure in aisle crossing.

[Radhika Jones]

This is too hard. How am I supposed to choose between these two excellent options? It's a win, win.

[Michael Colory]

There's no wrong answers in this game.

[Radhika Jones]

Welcome to Inside the Hive from Vanity Fair, a podcast about power and the people who love it. I'm Radhika Jones, the editor of Vanity Fair, and I'm joined by Executive Editor Claire Hoer.

[Michael Colory]

Hi, Radhika.

[Radhika Jones]

And Hive editor Michael Calderon.

[Michael Colory]

Hi, Radhi.

[Radhika Jones]

We have a great topic of conversation this week, and his name is Governor Gavin Newsom. So let's start with a little exercise. What words come to mind when you hear the name Gavin Newsom?

[Michael Colory]

I think eager, which I think in a charitable sense, can speak to him getting out in front on issues, but he also runs a risk sometimes of looking a little too opportunistic. Okay, but he's out there.

[Radhika Jones]

Claire, give us some word.

[Claire Hoer]

Yeah, Associations, I think driving. Power hungry. And I'm just gonna say George Hamilton, if I could say a person. He's very tan, very shellacked, and a little bit Hollywood.

[Radhika Jones]

I got a couple of words. Slick. Which, to be honest, is kind of more about his hair than anything else. But we also have to add a word close to our hearts. Podcaster Gavin Newsom has a few jobs now in between being governor of the nation's most populous state with the world's fifth largest economy. Of course, that's California. He is also the host of a new podcast called this is Gavin Newsom.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm Gavin Newsom, and having real conversations is nothing new for me. Tackling tough questions, engaging with people who don't always agree with me. Debating without demeaning. Now I'm taking those conversations even further on my new podcast. Each week, I'm inviting voices from.

[Radhika Jones]

We wanted to talk about it because the show has been the subject of a lot of headlines, and he is one of the most prominent Democrats in the country. He's a likely 2028 presidential contender.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah, and I think. I think Gavin Newsom will brush off the 2028 talk, but it is impossible not to look at what he's doing right now and consider that he is staking out a path for the Democratic nomination.

[Claire Hoer]

I totally agree. And he's also always been sort of a denier, that he's seeking the next higher office. Right. Like that's part of his M.O. is to. No, no, no, not me. I'm not going for that. And the next thing you know, he's the mayor, then the lieutenant governor, then the governor. He'll be maybe our president. I don't know.

[Radhika Jones]

So today we're talking about Gavin Newsom and whether a podcast, even a controvers, can truly take you all the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Okay, Michael, let's dive in. You drew the short straw this week. You have listened to a lot of this is Gavin Newsom on the airwaves. What's your impression from the first few episodes?

[Michael Colory]

Look, I think what he's doing is interesting in trying to have what he would describe as civil conversations with prominent political figures. Early this week, he dropped an episode with Governor Tim Wal that gets into issues around the 2024 campaign and where do Democrats go next? And he's said to have an episode coming next week with Ezra Klein, prominent liberal columnist and podcaster himself. But the first string of guests that Newsom had on the show are all right wing like Charlie Kirk, Michael Savage, and Steve Bannon. And I think at times he succeeds in having a little bit of a spirited debate. But these podcasts also can get really chummy. And when you're listening to the Charlie Kirk episode, especially his first one, I think there's just so many moments where it seems like Newsom is in agreement with this, the kind of this young right winger. But yeah, and then with Steve Bannon, I think, you know, there was some decent debate with Bannon, but at the same time, it felt like Gavin wasn't really challenging him, especially when Steve mentioned over and over that Donald Trump won the 2020 election.

[Claire Hoer]

So it was just so disappointing to hear that. Like, if anybody ever offers you fodder that you should interrupt, it's that Donald Trump won in 2020 and he didn't do it.

[Michael Colory]

Oh, so you were listening to all of them?

[Claire Hoer]

I did not listen to all of them. I only gave up one hour of my life to Steve Bannon. And then I did dive down the politikin hole just a little bit.

[Michael Colory]

Okay, so, yeah.

[Radhika Jones]

Wait, what's politickin?

[Claire Hoer]

The other Gavin Newsom podcast.

[Radhika Jones]

Okay.

[Claire Hoer]

That he shares with Marshawn lynch, who's an NFL player and was on the Seattle Seahawks. He's an Oakland native and they co host it with Doug Hendrickson. Maybe Michael knows more about it. I am not their target audience.

[Michael Colory]

Am I their target audience?

[Radhika Jones]

I don't know.

[Claire Hoer]

I don't know who is.

[Michael Colory]

It is a show called Politickin. It's not ostensibly a political show. I think politics comes up a bit, but it's more like celebrity chat, talking about sports and things like that. So he's segueing from politic into this is Gavin Newsom, which I think is more in his wheelhouse as far as I'm the Democrat who's gonna talk the talk with Republicans, I'm gonna challenge them, and I'm gonna get into this kind of discourse that I think he would say too many on the left are shying away from.

[Radhika Jones]

Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna back up and read the descript, the official description on the podcast homepage. I'm Gavin Newsom, and it's time to have a conversation. It's time to have honest discussions with people that agree and disagree with us. His mission, he says, is to invite people on who I deeply disagree with to talk about the most pressing issues of the day. But to your point, Michael, if there's a deep disagreement, but what you end up is just a lot of chuckles. It's. It's a little hard to figure out where you go from there.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah. I mean, these issues aren't in the rear view. You have Donald Trump this week saying that pardons for members of the January 6 committee are null and void. And so in that same breath, you have someone like Steve Bannon coming on and saying things like, donald Trump won a 2020 election, and unfortunately, Gavin Newsom not pressing him on that issue. So, you know, one moment that really jumped out from his first episode with Charlie Kirk was on the issue of trans athletes in women's sports, on the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Issue of sports, which in the last few years has just exploded, trying to understand and understand the 10 athletes in the NC2A. 510,000 athletes. But 10 athletes. And what. But how profound. And even my own friend cohort people saying, the hell is going on? Why aren't you calling this out? When did this happen? So in 2000. Turns out in 2014, years before I was governor, there was a law established that established the legal principles that allow trans athletes in women's sports. But the issue of fairness is completely legit. So I completely align with you, and we've got to own that.

[Michael Colory]

Just beyond Newsom taking a stand on trans athletes in women's sports, what really struck me was this. I completely align with you. I mean, how did that sit with you?

[Claire Hoer]

It said horribly. But the. The problem with trying to engage with all these far right figures is that they all bring this like fusillade of bullshit. And they're not. They wrap it up in real sounding data points and authentic sounding feelings, but they're not genuine, they're not sincere. And everybody needs to remember this. I went back and found this quote, I can't believe it was this long ago, 10,000 years ago in 2018, that Bannon gave to the writer Michael Lewis, writing for Bloomberg. The Democrats don't matter. The real opposition is the media. And the way to with them is to flood the zone with shit. And that is like he found a strategy that works. He's still doing it. It's just a wad of right wing buzzwords and you can't really tell what you're supposed to engage with. And Newsom did not engage with it. And that's why I think Californians poll just came out in Capitol Weekly and they don't like the podcast. They're peeling off from Newsom. So I feel like he's gonna have to pivot when he sees these numbers.

[Radhika Jones]

Well, but to your point about the, the right wing buzzwords, there are journalists who have training and experience in pushing back on statements that are factually untrue or asking follow up questions and teasing out nuance. And Gavin Newsom has a day job and has a lot on his plate and is not a journalist and is in having these conversations, is just a little bit outgunned, I would say.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah. And he's having this conversation to me, on Charlie Kirk's turf. This is what the right wants to talk about in this episode. They also get into defund the police, which was at best a marginal Democratic position four or five years ago. It is not mainstream. It hasn't been for many years. They talk about pronouns as well as transports. They talk about political correctness, which Charlie Kirk likens to authoritarianism. And the disconnect to me is they're not talking as much about the authoritarian project happening right now in Washington under Donald Trump. It's this idea that it's still, to me this idea that conservatives are being marginalized in some way when Donald Trump and Republicans are the ones in power, they're the ones with the power. And for some reason, Gavin Newsom's talking to Charlie Kirk about pronouns and defunding the police.

[Radhika Jones]

So the topic of masculine energy also comes up, right?

[Michael Colory]

Yes. This was a flashback to a few episodes ago when we were talking about Mr. Mark Zuckerberg. But they do have a conversation where Charlie Kirk brings up the Masculine side of podcasting.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're losing. We have this, I feel it's asymmetric asymmetry of Donald Trump and Elon Musk sending out tweets. Are you doing social media? And then me doing a three minute hit at 3:00 clock in the afternoon on CNN? I mean, how the hell do we compete? We're toast.

[Michael Colory]

Well, I mean, I'm part of it. And credit to you for doing long form podcasting because long form podcasting does penetrate different audiences. Right. And our show does very well. But part of the problem of the Democrat Party that for the health of the country would be great to change, is that Democrats cannot survive in long form podcasting environments. It's too unscripted, it's too masculine, honestly. And the Democrat parties.

[Gavin Newsom]

What is it? What is masculine about a podcast, honestly? Because I get the whole manosphere. That's to go into the wilderness with.

[Michael Colory]

No rules and duel it out and see who's better or who's strong. No, seriously, I mean, like what Democrats? What?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I mean like we don't do it. You're right. We, for whatever reason, don't do it.

[Radhika Jones]

That is bizarre. Sorry, I had not heard that clip. That is totally bizarre.

[Michael Colory]

And it also doesn't hold water to me. Any suggestion that Donald Trump is having tough unscripted interviews. We've never seen Donald Trump go on Rachel Maddow show or Chris Hayes show. Elon Musk had an opportunity recently to go on the Daily Show. Maybe Charlie Kirk and others are having multi hour conversations. But when I listened to Donald Trump do his kind of manosphere podcast blitz at the end of the election, it was really cozy chats about UFC fights and other things like that. For the most part it wasn't hard hitting journalism. So I do think Democrats should go in a variety of different media environments and I think Kamala Harris may have been well served to go on Joe Rogan or other similar podcasts. I think Pete Buttigieg and other Democrats have shown that they can compete on Fox News, get their views across on Fox News. So I support that. It's just the idea that Republicans or Trump and Musk maybe and others are actually doing long form, hard hitting interviews. I'm not really hearing that.

[Claire Hoer]

Pete Buttigieg is who I kept thinking about and wishing I was listening to because Newsom is not. He got a little bit combative with Bannon at the very end of their segment, but it took a full 45 minutes of just again, things that are not true.

[Radhika Jones]

It really bothered me listening to that Charlie Kirk clip that he calls it the Democrat Party repeatedly, which is a well known troll. The party is called the Democratic Party. And when right wing figures call it the Democrat Party, that has come to signify a pejorative term for excessive progressivism. And here he is doing that casually on Newsom's podcast and the governor doesn't call him on it. And I sort of feel like, you know what, come to my house, be on my podcast, like, let's treat each other respectfully. He's not getting that back.

[Claire Hoer]

No.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah.

[Claire Hoer]

It's just totally. Which.

[Radhika Jones]

Which feels like a bad use of time.

[Claire Hoer]

Yeah.

[Michael Colory]

And throughout, Newsom is very kind in how he talks to Charlie Kirk, whether even something like Kirk being opposed to same sex marriage. Newsom applauds him for being principled on the matter, even if he disagrees with him. At the beginning of the podcast, Newsom talks about how his 13 year old son wanted to stay home from school so he could meet Charlie Kirk. Throughout, Newsom is lauding Charlie Kirk as kind of, you know, the future of the Republican Party, but also somebody who really gets, you know, what the. What the kids of America today want.

[Claire Hoer]

Well, we're fucked.

[Radhika Jones]

I do want to talk a little about his conversation with Tim Walz this week. Tim Walz, of course, Gavin Newsom's fellow Democratic governor, governor of Minnesota, and the former vice presidential candidate. They addressed the problem the Democrats are having with young men and they also addressed Newsom's guest selection on his show.

[Gavin Newsom]

I think it's one of the reasons we're losing so many men. And again, it's multiethnic. It's not just white men. We're losing them. We're losing them to these guys online. We're losing them. People that I'm bringing on this podcast as well. These are bad guys, though. These are bad guys. But they exist. And we could deny they exist. They exist. Not only they exist, they persist. And they're actually influencing young kids every single day. How do we push some of those guys back under a rock? I think we have to first understand what their motivations are. I think we have to understand what they're actually doing. You don't think that's racism and misogyny? I think there's a lot of that, but I don't think it's exclusively that. When you talk to a guy like Steve Bannon, you know, reminded me a little bit of my grandfather when he talks about working folks.

[Radhika Jones]

Tim Walls is all of us in that clip, all three of us. Anyway, he specifically says of Newsom's prior guests. These are bad guys. Claire and Michael. What do you think about his comments there?

[Claire Hoer]

I have to say, I was really into this episode. Their back and forth and their dialogue is very honest. At one point, Tim Wall says he. He feels like the least qualified person to talk about the problems that the Dems face. And then Newsom says, no, no, you're actually the best qualified. So I really loved hearing from Tim Waltz. And, you know, we really haven't heard from Kamala Harris yet, so we'll take what we can get. It's funny they're talking about masculinity because there's, as far as I know, still not a lady booked for this show. And then I'll point to one other thing, which is that Newsom invokes Bannon twice in the episode, and Waltz does not bit. He doesn't want to talk about the people who belong under Rocks by name. And I think that there's. It's interesting to watch that strategy in action.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah. Because Walls even discusses how sometimes he felt he was taking the right wing bait during the 2024 campaign. And so maybe he's trying to avoid getting into a discussion about what a great populist Steve Bannon is because, you know, Walls also is a populist just coming from a very different place. I thought that this was a great discussion because I think they're both very well intentioned here. I think they're sincerely trying to figure out why a number of young men seem to have shifted. Right. And what is the best course of action. And there's no right answer. The Democrats are in the midst of a reckoning, trying to figure out the best way forward. And I think you see Newsom suggesting, well, we have to bring these guys on and talk to him. Maybe Wall sees another way that by giving them a platform, aren't you just amplifying a lot of their views and we're going to see how these things play out.

[Radhika Jones]

Yeah. I mean, we are in this moment among the Democrats where they're all trying to figure out how to articulate a path forward for the party. And part of the reason I think we were all eager to talk about this is Gavin Newsom this week, is that this seems to be Newsom's foray into initiating some tactics from the evidence at hand, which is the existing episodes of this podcast. I think he has a misguided idea that by finding common ground with people like Bannon or Kirk, he can earn some converts. But then you listen to the opening of the Steve Bannon episode. And Bannon himself is immediately talking about conversion. He says, I want to convert you to be a tariff guy.

[Gavin Newsom]

The purpose I want to do this.

[Michael Colory]

Is I want to convert you to be a tariff guy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Also, this is part of the process to unwind you from being a globalist to make you a populist nationalist. It's a long journey. It's a long journey, but I think you'll get there. This is part of the deprogramming, is it? I appreciate. And by the way, for the record.

[Radhika Jones]

And then they both chuckle and it's kind of like, okay, but you know, the sarcasm is not really coming across there as strongly as it needs to. Instead, he participates in that idea that he needs to be deprogrammed. And it just it. For me, it's not landing. Okay, when we're back, I want to dig in a bit more to Newsom's backstory, from being far ahead of his time on gay marriage to posing on a rug for a photo shoot with the future ambassador to Greece. Inside the hive from Vanity Fair. We'll return in a moment.

[Katie Drummond]

What the hell is going on right now and why is it happening like this? At Wired, we're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis. And maybe you are, too. I'm Katie Drummond, the global editorial Director of Wired, and I'm hosting our new podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll sit down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.

[Michael Colory]

I want a shark that.

[Katie Drummond]

That eats the Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid.

[Michael Colory]

So in a lot of ways, I try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online. To the best of my ability, every.

[Katie Drummond]

Week we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times, meaning and context. True or false? You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me, one day, at some point, as of yet undefined in the future, you will die.

[Michael Colory]

False.

[Katie Drummond]

Tell me more. Listen to the Big Interview right now in the same place you find Wired's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Radhika Jones]

Alright, let's get into Newsom's backstory. He's the Governor of California. He's the former mayor of San Francisco. What's our sense of how Gavin Newsom gained power and how he has used it over the last couple of decades? What stands out to you both in his trajectory?

[Claire Hoer]

Honestly, his friendliness and progress where gay marriage is concerned. He was way ahead of the curve on that. And thank goodness. Which also highlights what the weirdness about what he's saying with Charlie Kirk. But, Michael, you had some thoughts?

[Michael Colory]

Yeah. Gavin Newsom became mayor in 2004, and his first major act, which created headlines around the world, was allowing for same sex couples to get married. And this was not just way ahead of the Republican Party, it was way ahead of the Democratic Party. Reportedly, even Barack Obama, when he was out in California, didn't want to be photographed with Newsom. Nancy Pelosi was against it. The fear among Democrats was that he was going too far in supporting gay rights and the party just wasn't there. And maybe the view was the nation wasn't there yet. There was a fear of Republicans pushing a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage. And here was Gavin Newsom, the very new mayor of San Francisco, way out in front of the rest of the country.

[Radhika Jones]

And I would say California is a hugely important state. I mean, honestly, worldwide, given the size of its economy, but also in a kind of symbolic way for America, what it represents the American dream. And then also as a major fundraising source for the Democratic Party. And if you look at Gavin Newsom's trajectory within California, you see some of that energy express itself in his history, which is to say that he's had some help along the way from some very prominent San Francisco families, in his case, who maybe not all of them are household names, but some of them are.

[Claire Hoer]

Yeah. And he's not necessarily a political Nepo baby. Exactly. Although he does have a kind of connection to Nancy Pelosi. But his dad was the longtime lawyer for Getty Oil and the Getty Trust, and he. He's had a lot of help from them, including the location for the shoot. We're going to talk about.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah, we're just going to allude to.

[Claire Hoer]

The photo shoot over and over again. We never quite get there.

[Radhika Jones]

We can't know we're getting there.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah. The Getty money has followed him, and I think he's tried to downplay it in some respects that it's not so much money. But members of the Getty families have invested in him from early on, I think his beginning with the wine shop in San Francisco onto wineries and other businesses that he's had throughout his career. And he's a very enterprising guy. He's had a number of businesses prior to even getting into politics.

[Radhika Jones]

A governor of California who owned a wine shop is kind of central casting. I forgot about that he had this support in San Francisco before the tech boom. So when you look back, you see certain families, but it's like the people who founded the. The Gap and Esprit and sort of these earlier economic powerhouses of San Francisco. Now, of course, the wealth in San Francisco looks very different, but it worked to kind of bring him to prominence within the state, and his hold on power has just gotten bigger from there. All right, let's turn to his personal life and the famous.

[Claire Hoer]

Should we do the photo shoot finally?

[Michael Colory]

And first, we've been teasing it enough throughout this episode. Let's just. Let's get to what we really, really want to talk about.

[Radhika Jones]

So in the September 2004 issue of Harper's Bazaar fashion magazine, Newsom and his then spouse were dubbed the new Kennedys in a piece that had with it a photograph of the two of them lounging on a rug at one of.

[Claire Hoer]

The Getty mansions, Ann Getty's very scenic home with gilt candelabras in the background. And it's all very Trumpian, frankly. He's in a Hugo Boss suit, and I think she's in Celine.

[Radhika Jones]

And she, let's give a name to.

[Claire Hoer]

The face, is the lady Kimberly Guilfoyle. At the time, they had been married about three years, and their marriage would only last mere months after this photo was taken. But it was just a. I don't know, Michael, name some other famous politician photographs that rival that. In Trump in the bathrobe. Yeah, Trump in the bathrobe.

[Michael Colory]

There's not many.

[Claire Hoer]

Also, what makes it so cringe, as the Internet agrees it is, is that it was obviously consensual. You know?

[Radhika Jones]

Yes.

[Michael Colory]

Nancy Collins, who wrote the piece, she recognized what a gift this photo was for her story, and she even says, how many politicians curl up with their wife on the floor of Harper's Bazaar? It was kind of a sexy picture in terms of politics there. They were kind of a Mark Antony and Cleopatra.

[Claire Hoer]

Kind of a sexy. It was super. He's, like, spooning her.

[Radhika Jones]

Well, I mean, I was. We were talking about this earlier, but I've been on a lot of photo shoots over the course of my career, and, you know, there's. You get a vibe going. There could be a moment. Suddenly you're on the floor, you're suddenly in a Hugo Boss suit. No, it seems that there was some calculation there, but it was consensual. I've read that pretty soon after he was pushing back against the new Kennedy moniker, which I think every Democratic politician is plagued by. If they're so lucky. If they're lucky enough to have it applied to them.

[Claire Hoer]

Show me. Kennedy's sprawled on the floor. You won't find many.

[Radhika Jones]

Yeah. She of course, went on to be the girlfriend of Donald Trump Jr. And is now the ambassador to Greece, coincidentally.

[Claire Hoer]

Right when she split with Donald Trump Jr.

[Radhika Jones]

Right. It's not the farthest away she could have been sent, but still pretty far.

[Claire Hoer]

And then after that, I can walk you down a little tabloid memory lane, which is that Gavin Newsom got into a lot of trouble when an affair he had with his secretary in city government became public. She was the wife of a close friend of his who also happened to be his campaign manager. And then he got in super hot water for when he was 39, trotting a 19 year old named Brittany Mountz out on a date to the San Francisco Symphony and at a different event may or may not have allowed her to drink alcohol, which he denies. And so that was the end of that relationship. And after that, he married Jennifer Newsom and they had a spectacular wedding with an out of Africa theme. Their chosen theme. Yes. My eyebrows were raised.

[Radhika Jones]

The movie or the book?

[Claire Hoer]

We'd have to ask Willie Brown, who wrote all about it.

[Radhika Jones]

Willie Brown, of course, the former mayor of San Francisco.

[Claire Hoer]

Wow. Yeah. At her Montana. Her family's Montana ranch, and Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Nancy Pelosi were there. Kamala Harris was not there. And at the rehearsal dinner, he rode out on a horse and did a cattle herding demonstration. I'm not making this up. This is all in the Society column.

[Radhika Jones]

I think we can safely say that Gavin Newsom is not afraid of spectacle. No. And you know, there's a place for that in politics for sure. This is all reminding me that he also got in trouble during COVID because in a period of shutdown he was found to have dined at the French Laundry, famous restaurant in Napa Valley in a state of unmask, shall we say?

[Michael Colory]

Yeah. And now he'll talk about this being one of the most boneheaded things he did.

[Radhika Jones]

Okay, I think that's our quota of boneheaded for one episode in a minute. Is Gavin Newsom's new media strategy a winning one? This is Inside the Hive from Vanity Fair.

[Katie Drummond]

Foreign. I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director.

[Michael Colory]

I'm Michael Colory, Wired's director of consumer tech and culture.

[Claire Hoer]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Katie Drummond]

At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of the biggest stories in tech.

[Michael Colory]

Right. So whether we're talking about privacy, AI.

[Gavin Newsom]

Social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you.

[Katie Drummond]

Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.

[Radhika Jones]

Michael, I think it's pretty clear to everyone that Gavin Newsom really wants to be considered presidential material.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah, I mean, I think Gavin Newsom has put himself out there over the past couple years. Whether it's going on Fox to debate Ron DeSantis or being one of the top surrogates for Joe Biden. And then Kamala Harris, Newsom is always putting himself out there. I think what I wonder is I don't really expect him to convert conservatives on this type of show. And what we saw in the last election is Democrats have a real problem with the base. They have a trouble reaching Democrats. And Kamala Harris's strategy of trying to appeal to Liz Cheney voters was not effective.

[Radhika Jones]

Not only that, but it annoyed.

[Michael Colory]

It annoyed them.

[Radhika Jones]

It didn't bring people in in a constructive way, but it also hurt her, I think, with people who wanted to see more of a progress of commitment.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah, and we're seeing people. We did a piece last week on Midas Touch, which is the progressive network that is winning over a lot of listeners and a lot of viewers, and last month even topped Joe Rogan for a couple weeks. And Midas Touch is trying to reach liberals who are angry and they're anxious and they want to see people fighting on behalf of progressive or Democratic or as they would say, pro democracy values. And I would wonder if Gavin Newsom, having long extended chats with the likes of Michael Savage and Steve Bannon, is going to reach the voters Democrats really need in 2028.

[Claire Hoer]

Yeah, I think it seems like a really uphill idea to try to peel off the more entrenched folks in the camp on the right rather than try to appeal to, say, non voters or to purely economically interested voters. But he's going in the ideologue direction and that, like, what are the gains gonna be there? Those people are not gonna suddenly swing leftward. So it seems like a flawed at best idea.

[Radhika Jones]

Yeah, I don't wanna pile on, but he's certainly hearing that feedback from some prominent commentators, both politicians in the Democratic Party like Andy Beshear, and also columnists like Michelle Goldberg in the New York Times, she called the podcast a quote, protracted exercise in self harm for both Newsom and any liberal who decides to listen to him. I mean, at first when I heard he was doing this and had not listened, I thought, okay, this is like the 21st century version of a Fireside Chat. You know, it's important for politicians to take the time to communicate with their constituencies, et cetera. We're very focused on Gavin Newsom's podcast because it's new and that's how we roll. But to be fair, there are other bad podcasts out there, one of them, unsurprisingly, helmed by Senator Senator Ted Cruz.

[Claire Hoer]

Who needs a real. He needs an SEO whiz to come in there and help him do episode titles because they're really bad. Like what Verdict with Ted Cruz? He did just have Elon Musk on for an exclusive. But here's a garble for you. The Self Deportation Proclamation. Justice Comes to Antisemitic Campuses and Covid Era Loans to Children Week in Review. Sick punctuation. All his terrorists linked illegal aliens released into the US plus protecting your children takes a single act. I say those in the fragmented way in which they are presented. We all need an editor.

[Michael Colory]

Yeah, and it's a bit of a straw man, this idea that Democrats or liberals have to get out of their echo chambers when, of course, the right is in their own echo chamber. But I think most people would agree with Democrats should not only be speaking to people who are already converted, but at the same time, you have to, I think, give people something that is inspiring or something that is going to feel like you're really fighting on their behalf. And yes, Newsom will interject a few times with statements of support for California or Democratic values, but the end result of listening to, I don't know what, three hours so far of the Kevin Newsom show, I did not find. I found for the most part, the guest's point of view was loud and clear. And I'm not sure he really broke through to who.

[Claire Hoer]

No, on the episode, I listened to the episode of Politicken that they recorded right after the election and Newsom expressed a lot of he wasn't directly critical of Harris, but he seemed to be airing very specific regret about the Democratic leadership bus tour and being in that bubble and not hearing more from on the ground people like Marshawn Lynch's Uber drivers, who Marshawn was like, they told me that this was gonna happen. Like I knew the outcome. Why didn't you Newsom. And I think that that's good podcasting. And I think that this, you know, this podcast, this is Gavin Newsom podcast project, comes from that place.

[Radhika Jones]

You know, I will say, you know who I think he should listen to aoc, Because I kept thinking of this piece that we did shortly after the election. And, Claire, you had edited the original profile that we did, Michelle Ruiz's profile of aoc. So I think you know what I'm talking about. But she has some very specific messaging language for Democrats, and it's not about engaging someone like Bannon or Kirk at this kind of abstract level. It's very specifically about the experience of people's lives at a granular level. And she talks specific. You talk about Uber drivers. Right. This is from an interview that Michelle Ruiz did with AOC for our 2020 cover on her. But it became even more predictive and relevant in 2024. She says if his life doesn't feel different, and she's pointing to a cab driver if their life doesn't feel different, and she's pointing to people just walking outside, past a grocery, in a beauty shop, if these people's lives don't actually feel different, we're done. That's about their ability to make a decent living, their ability to afford eggs. Just to pick up a strand of conversation that Donald Trump seems to have left behind on the campaign tr. It's very practical and pragmatic. Yeah.

[Claire Hoer]

Or even just some semblance of the American dream that people believe Trump sold so well.

[Radhika Jones]

Right, Right. But the other thing is that a number of politicians have started podcasts, and it seems like many of them have decided to let them lapse. Presumably, they have better things to do with their time.

[Claire Hoer]

Well, we could debate the merits of.

[Michael Colory]

The word useful, but, yeah, I don't think it's bad strategy to start a podcast. Just like politicians have had other ways of interacting with voters. And you mentioned aoc. I think she's been ahead of the curve in most. And how she used social media for years to reach the public. Just recently, during Trump's joint address to Congress, AOC decided not to go. Instead, she went on Instagram and she used that platform to reach the people she wanted to reach. She felt, I'm sure it was more effective use of her time than sitting in the audience, protesting in some way or just not clapping or doing something else. So, you know, she's someone who I think is, along with a few other Democrats, I think are like Max Frost and others, I think are very good at reaching voters. In different ways. And I don't think it's a problem for Gavin Newsom to take a stab at this, but maybe he will want to rethink the framing of this type of show and this type of enterprise as he goes along.

[Claire Hoer]

Or at least the booking.

[Michael Colory]

He may want to rethink the booking so it's not a string of right wing guests in a row.

[Radhika Jones]

Well, speaking of booking, we did reach out to the governor's comms team for comment and they encouraged us to, quote, wait and give it more time, which we will do. And we will also add that Governor Newsom is invited on our show anytime. We promise not to attempt to deprogram him. We may push him a little, but we would love to have him on. Clara, Michael, thanks for being here as always.

[Claire Hoer]

Thanks, Radhika.

[Michael Colory]

Thanks so much.

[Radhika Jones]

This has been Inside the Hive. I'm Radhika Jones. We had research today by Alex d' Elia and help from senior producer Rhiannon Corby. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Conde Nast's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. We had engineering help today from Jake Lum with mixing by Mike Kutchman. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you again next week.

[Claire Hoer]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Michael Colory]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Claire Hoer]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Michael Colory]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

[Claire Hoer]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Michael Colory]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts from.

[Radhika Jones]

PRX.