The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: George Packer Talks to Dorothy Wickenden About Tunisia
Date: March 28, 2016
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: George Packer

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden interviews New Yorker staff writer George Packer about his recent reporting from Tunisia—often cited as the Arab Spring’s only democratic “success story.” The discussion delves into the paradox of Tunisia’s fragile democracy and its role as a major source of ISIS recruits. Together, they explore the underlying causes of Tunisian disenchantment, the fate of the Arab Spring’s youthful idealists, and the government’s struggle against violent extremism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tunisia: Exception or Illusion?

• [02:17–03:41]
  • Tunisia, where the Arab Spring began, is the only country that emerged as a democracy. However, its achievements are compromised by deep societal unhappiness and limited real success.
  • Quote: “Tunisia has the ingredients for success, and yet it hasn't been very successful. Tunisians are now free to act on their unhappiness. And there's all kinds of unhappiness in Tunisia.” – George Packer (03:27)

2. The Disillusionment of Tunisia’s Youth

• [03:41–05:04]
  • Many young idealists from the revolution remain active but are largely cynical and overwhelmed by systemic challenges.
  • Youth-led NGOs exist, but there is a sense they are “sweeping the sands” in the face of mass unemployment and disillusionment.
  • Quote: “I met a young woman…Her group monitors parliament and tries to connect Tunisians to their legislature. It's a great group…But I also felt they were in some ways sweeping the sands.” – George Packer (03:58)

3. The ‘Suffocation’ of the Educated Jobless

• [05:04–06:20]
  • Many young Tunisians are educated but face chronic unemployment—being educated actually increases joblessness. This breeds frustration and rage.
  • “Suffocation” is a recurring theme among disenfranchised youth, fueling radicalization and the lure of jihad.
  • Quote: “Tunisia has this phenomenon of the educated jobless...a whole generation of young people with high expectations, with educations, with some knowledge, and without any prospects…that is a road to revolution and to jihad.” – George Packer (05:41)

4. Western Influence vs. Radical Alternatives

• [06:20–07:54]
  • Some Tunisian youth are deeply enmeshed in Western pop culture and American politics, while others are drawn to extremism, highlighting divisions.
  • Quote: “His whole mental world is Americanized…Alongside him in his high school are these kids who are going off to Syria. And so there's some weird bifurcation in Tunisia.” – George Packer (06:31; 07:25)
  • Memorable Moment: A Tunisian high schooler referencing Bernie Sanders—“Are you feeling the burn?” (06:29–06:45)

5. Tunisia as an Exporter of Jihadis

• [07:54–09:15]
  • Despite its small population, Tunisia produces more jihadi fighters than any other country.
  • Many join extremist groups abroad due to a combination of alienation, lack of ideological anchor within Tunisia, and regional “action.”
  • Quote: “Tunisia…is the largest producer of jihadis in the world by a lot…There isn't much in the way of organized religion … so young people are prey to the siren song of the jihadis.” – George Packer (08:05)

6. The Government’s Reaction: Security Over Strategy

• [09:15–10:29]
  • The government’s approach has been mainly repressive—mass arrests, denial of an internal problem, and revival of past police abuses.
  • There’s a lack of prevention or rehabilitation programs for returning or potential jihadis, unlike in some European countries.
  • Quote: “Some of the old bad practices of a corrupt police force, torture and arbitrary harassment and detention are coming back...They have no program...for prevention or rehabilitation of jihadis.” – George Packer (09:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tunisia’s Paradox:

  • “Tunisia has the ingredients for success, and yet it hasn't been very successful.” – George Packer (03:27)

• On Social Bifurcation:

  • “It's as if I'm talking to a kid in Brooklyn. He's in Djerba, Tunisia, and his classmates, some of them, are going off to join ISIS.” – George Packer (06:40)

• On the Dangers of Educated Unemployment:

  • “That is a road to revolution and to jihad.” – George Packer (06:19)

• On the Security State’s Failings:

  • “They have no program...for prevention or rehabilitation of jihadis. And that's sort of basic stuff that European countries are doing.” – George Packer (09:51)

Important Timestamps and Segments

• [01:16–02:17] — Episode setup; Tunisia’s unique place in the Arab Spring
• [02:17–03:41] — What’s happened since the Arab Spring
• [03:41–05:04] — Fate of youth and idealists; scale of disillusionment
• [05:04–06:20] — Educated unemployed and drivers of jihadism
• [06:20–07:54] — Influence of Western culture versus radicalization
• [07:54–09:15] — The export of jihadis and causes
• [09:15–10:29] — Government response, shortcomings, and need for reform

Episode Takeaway

This episode presents a nuanced picture of Tunisia: a country balancing fragile democratic gains with profound social and economic unrest. Despite being the Arab Spring’s rare democratic survivor, Tunisia’s youth feel stifled and many are turning towards radicalism—not out of deep ideology but out of suffocating frustration and lack of opportunity. The government’s harsh, security-heavy response further alienates the population, highlighting an urgent need for smarter, more humane policies at home and more substantial help from abroad.