George Packer Talks to Dorothy Wickenden About Tunisia

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: George Packer Talks to Dorothy Wickenden About Tunisia
Date: March 28, 2016
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: George Packer

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden interviews New Yorker staff writer George Packer about his recent reporting from Tunisia—often cited as the Arab Spring’s only democratic “success story.” The discussion delves into the paradox of Tunisia’s fragile democracy and its role as a major source of ISIS recruits. Together, they explore the underlying causes of Tunisian disenchantment, the fate of the Arab Spring’s youthful idealists, and the government’s struggle against violent extremism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tunisia: Exception or Illusion?

• [02:17–03:41]
  • Tunisia, where the Arab Spring began, is the only country that emerged as a democracy. However, its achievements are compromised by deep societal unhappiness and limited real success.
  • Quote: “Tunisia has the ingredients for success, and yet it hasn't been very successful. Tunisians are now free to act on their unhappiness. And there's all kinds of unhappiness in Tunisia.” – George Packer (03:27)

2. The Disillusionment of Tunisia’s Youth

• [03:41–05:04]
  • Many young idealists from the revolution remain active but are largely cynical and overwhelmed by systemic challenges.
  • Youth-led NGOs exist, but there is a sense they are “sweeping the sands” in the face of mass unemployment and disillusionment.
  • Quote: “I met a young woman…Her group monitors parliament and tries to connect Tunisians to their legislature. It's a great group…But I also felt they were in some ways sweeping the sands.” – George Packer (03:58)

3. The ‘Suffocation’ of the Educated Jobless

• [05:04–06:20]
  • Many young Tunisians are educated but face chronic unemployment—being educated actually increases joblessness. This breeds frustration and rage.
  • “Suffocation” is a recurring theme among disenfranchised youth, fueling radicalization and the lure of jihad.
  • Quote: “Tunisia has this phenomenon of the educated jobless...a whole generation of young people with high expectations, with educations, with some knowledge, and without any prospects…that is a road to revolution and to jihad.” – George Packer (05:41)

4. Western Influence vs. Radical Alternatives

• [06:20–07:54]
  • Some Tunisian youth are deeply enmeshed in Western pop culture and American politics, while others are drawn to extremism, highlighting divisions.
  • Quote: “His whole mental world is Americanized…Alongside him in his high school are these kids who are going off to Syria. And so there's some weird bifurcation in Tunisia.” – George Packer (06:31; 07:25)
  • Memorable Moment: A Tunisian high schooler referencing Bernie Sanders—“Are you feeling the burn?” (06:29–06:45)

5. Tunisia as an Exporter of Jihadis

• [07:54–09:15]
  • Despite its small population, Tunisia produces more jihadi fighters than any other country.
  • Many join extremist groups abroad due to a combination of alienation, lack of ideological anchor within Tunisia, and regional “action.”
  • Quote: “Tunisia…is the largest producer of jihadis in the world by a lot…There isn't much in the way of organized religion … so young people are prey to the siren song of the jihadis.” – George Packer (08:05)

6. The Government’s Reaction: Security Over Strategy

• [09:15–10:29]
  • The government’s approach has been mainly repressive—mass arrests, denial of an internal problem, and revival of past police abuses.
  • There’s a lack of prevention or rehabilitation programs for returning or potential jihadis, unlike in some European countries.
  • Quote: “Some of the old bad practices of a corrupt police force, torture and arbitrary harassment and detention are coming back...They have no program...for prevention or rehabilitation of jihadis.” – George Packer (09:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tunisia’s Paradox:

  • “Tunisia has the ingredients for success, and yet it hasn't been very successful.” – George Packer (03:27)

• On Social Bifurcation:

  • “It's as if I'm talking to a kid in Brooklyn. He's in Djerba, Tunisia, and his classmates, some of them, are going off to join ISIS.” – George Packer (06:40)

• On the Dangers of Educated Unemployment:

  • “That is a road to revolution and to jihad.” – George Packer (06:19)

• On the Security State’s Failings:

  • “They have no program...for prevention or rehabilitation of jihadis. And that's sort of basic stuff that European countries are doing.” – George Packer (09:51)

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Important Timestamps and Segments

• [01:16–02:17] — Episode setup; Tunisia’s unique place in the Arab Spring
• [02:17–03:41] — What’s happened since the Arab Spring
• [03:41–05:04] — Fate of youth and idealists; scale of disillusionment
• [05:04–06:20] — Educated unemployed and drivers of jihadism
• [06:20–07:54] — Influence of Western culture versus radicalization
• [07:54–09:15] — The export of jihadis and causes
• [09:15–10:29] — Government response, shortcomings, and need for reform

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Episode Takeaway

This episode presents a nuanced picture of Tunisia: a country balancing fragile democratic gains with profound social and economic unrest. Despite being the Arab Spring’s rare democratic survivor, Tunisia’s youth feel stifled and many are turning towards radicalism—not out of deep ideology but out of suffocating frustration and lack of opportunity. The government’s harsh, security-heavy response further alienates the population, highlighting an urgent need for smarter, more humane policies at home and more substantial help from abroad.

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Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, I talk with New Yorker staff writer George Packer. He recently wrote in the magazine about young jihadis in Tunisia, one of the only democracies to emerge from the Arab Spring uprisings. The country also has become a leading exporter of ISIS militants.

[Narrator/Host]

George Packer is a staff writer at the magazine and a great reporter about war and diplomacy. He goes places where most of us don't ever want to set foot. Iraq during the US invasion, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan. And he helps us understand what's going on. He was recently in Tunisia, where the Arab Spring began five years ago. It was the only country involved that successfully became a democracy, or at least it seemed to. Tunisia today is one of the largest exporters of the jihadi fighters who are destabilizing the entire region and creating nightmares for so many people. George Packer sat down to talk with the New Yorker's Dorothy Wickenden.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

George, we all think about Tunisia as the heart of the Arab Spring. What happened?

[George Packer]

Yeah, it started there and it spread from Tunisia to Egypt to Libya to Syria. All of those places are in various states of hellishness. Syria is the worst place on earth. Libya is in civil war and chaos with no functioning government. Egypt had a revolution, an election and a coup, and now it's ruled by the military.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And how many governments has it had since?

[George Packer]

Yeah, and so none of them come remotely close to qualifying as success stories. Tunisia does. It has had several rounds of elections. There's a margin of freedom for the press, for political parties, for civil society groups. It's a peaceful place. It doesn't have a large army. It doesn't have an oil economy, which can be a deadly thing when oil prices go down. So it's, in some ways, Tunisia has the ingredients for success, and yet it hasn't been very successful. And when I was there, I kept asking myself, why hasn't the freedom I see here brought about a good vision of society? And the answer I came up with is Tunisians are now free to act on their unhappiness. And there's all kinds of unhappiness in Tunisia.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

What's happened to the young, idealistic democratic types who took part in the Arab Spring? Are they a noticeable force?

[George Packer]

They're still there. They're a bit cynical, but I met a number who are still active. I met a young woman named Onz Ben Abdelkarim who runs an NGO. She's like 26. All the people I talked to were 26 years old there. Her group monitors parliament and tries to connect Tunisians to their legislature. It's a great group, and they were truly the young, inspiring idealists that I'd hoped to meet in Tunisia. But I also felt that they were in some ways sweeping the sands. I mean, there's such a huge generational problem of disillusionment and of joblessness. In January, there were big anti unemployment demonstrations, including violence across the country, because there's just so much pressure that's built up. And I don't know that these very admirable youth groups are capable of handling a problem on that scale.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You had some really extraordinary conversations with young Tunisians who are disaffected. One of you talked about the project, as he called it, and he described it as leading to the Islamic State ruling the world. What did he. And other emerging and former jihadis, and you talk to them too. What did they tell you about the lure of revolution?

[George Packer]

Their attitude toward the Islamic State or Al Qaeda or going to fight Jihad for the most part, seemed just like a pure expression of rage, frustration, the word that kept coming up was suffocation. I'm suffocating here in Tunisia. That was a word I heard almost from all, all of them.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That's the question here. Is that true in Tunisia, as it is in other countries throughout the region? Does he have no hope? A lot ofit seems like a number of the young kids and their kids that you talk to actually are educated, and you would think they have prospects for their future.

[George Packer]

They're educated, but that's it. Tunisia has this phenomenon of the educated jobless. In fact, you're more likely to be jobless if you have a college degree than if you don't because there's still plenty of unskilled labor opportunities. The old regime made sure a lot of Tunisians got college degrees, but it didn't create an economy that could produce jobs for them. So you have what to me is a dangerous situation for any regime, a whole generation of young people with high expectations, with educations, with some knowledge, and without any prospects of supporting themselves. And so that is a road to revolution and to jihad.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You know, the other thing that's extraordinary here is obviously they watch Western culture closely. One of them told you he's feeling the burn.

[George Packer]

Yeah, this kid, I met him in the south of Tunisia. He's a high school student, plays baseball, wants to come study in America. His whole mental world is Americanized. He has this haircut that is more extravagant, more hip than anything that I could conjure up from my Brooklyn life. But he also, yeah, knows everything. He asked me, are you feeling the burn? Because the last debate, I thought he really got Hillary's number. It's as if I'm talking to a kid in Brooklyn. He's in Djerba, Tunisia, and his classmates, some of them, are going off to join isis.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

What did he say about Trump?

[George Packer]

Yeah, he seemed more focused on Bernie than Trump.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That's interesting, though.

[George Packer]

Yeah. Yeah. But what was bizarre, I mean, he's kind of become a liberal American, late night, comedy watching voter, a very recognizable type. Alongside him in his high school are these kids who are going off to Syria. And so there's some weird bifurcation in Tunisia. And it does. See, it's a very divided society. I felt the whole time I was there that if this were the 60s and 70s, all these kids would have been joining Maoist organizations instead of going off to fight jihadi. It seemed like the same dynamic of a divided society with a lot of class rage.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

George, the jihadis seem to jump around the region from Tunisia. Why is that? What's going on there? And Is this an ideological thing that is driving them?

[George Packer]

Well, Tunisia is a country of only 11 million, is the largest producer of jihadis in the world by a lot. It's a real mystery. I think it's partly a sense of being neglected or marginalized by the state. There isn't much in the way of organized religion in Tunisia because of its history of rigid secularism. So young people are prey to the siren song of the jihadis. And most of them, when they join that movement, they can't really function as jihadis inside Tunisia. So they go to Syria, they go to Iraq to fight. More recently they've been going to Libya in large numbers and then getting trained there by ISIS or Al Qaeda. And coming back into Tunisia, I found it to be a relatively crude and non ideological form of jihadism.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

It seemed more like, so they're kind of going where the jobs are, they're.

[George Packer]

Going where the action is, but then they're coming back to Tunisia to kill foreigners, Tunisian police and soldiers. There've been a number of high profile attacks, but these are all Tunisians who are leaving the country, being trained in, outside, mainly in Libya and then coming back.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

How is the current government handling the threat of terrorism?

[George Packer]

Not very well, I'd say. Some officials denied that ISIS existed inside Tunisia. It's a foreign problem that's being imported, not true. Tunisians are being exported and then re imported as jihadis. They've taken what you could call just a kind of militarized and security minded approach. Lots of arrests. In the first six months of last year, 100,000 Tunisians were arrested. It's a staggering number. Some of the old bad practices of a corrupt police force, torture and arbitrary harassment and detention are coming back and they're struggling because honestly, they have not grappled with this problem. They have no program that I could find for prevention or rehabilitation of jihadis. And that's sort of basic stuff that European countries are doing in order to find a way to either stop these young guys from leaving or once they come back to do something other than just throw them in prison. So Tunisia is really struggling and I don't know that we have given them sufficient help. In fact, I know that we haven't.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thank you so much, George. I really appreciate it.

[George Packer]

Thanks, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was George Packer.

[Asma Khalid]

America is changing and so is the world.

[George Packer]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval.

[Narrator/Host]

It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.

[George Packer]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[George Packer]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

From.

[George Packer]

PRX.