Podcast Summary: HBO’s “Our Boys,” a Brutally Truthful Depiction of the Effects of Hate Crime

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: August 26, 2019
Episode Length: ~16 minutes
Host: Michael Calore
Guests: Haggai Levi (Co-creator of "Our Boys"), Tofik Abu (Co-creator of "Our Boys")

Episode Overview

This episode explores HBO and Keshet’s acclaimed series Our Boys, an unflinching dramatization of the events surrounding the 2014 murder of Palestinian teenager Mohammed Abu Khdeir amid ongoing Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Host Michael Calore sits down with the show’s creators, Haggai Levi and Tofik Abu, in Tel Aviv to discuss the complexities, ethical choices, and personal risks involved in depicting such a painful and politically charged true story. The conversation dives into the anatomy of hate crime, representation, and how art can challenge audiences to confront uncomfortable truths.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of "Our Boys" (02:42–04:31)

• Initial Concept:
  • Levi describes the project’s early focus:
    • “We wrote a pilot for HBO and the pilot focused more on the far right wing groups in Israel, like Hilltop Boys or Lehabah... until all the way to the government. But I felt it wasn't real enough, it wasn't true.” (02:42)
  • Shift to real events after bringing in director Joseph Cedar and following the shock of Trump’s election:
    • “We understood that what we want to do actually is to examine the nature of hate crime... to make an anatomy of hate crime.” (04:19, Haggai Levi)

2. Tofik Abu’s Perspective & Personal Struggle (04:31–07:10)

• Palestinian voice: Abu, a Palestinian-Israeli filmmaker, was initially reluctant:
  • “Usually I get calls from Israel filmmakers or creators when they have something about Arabs. And all the time I say no.” (04:52, Tofik Abu)
• Family’s Reaction: Visiting the Abu Khdeir family shifted his stance:
  • “All the tension they had, it suddenly became...even sweet in their faces when they realized that I'm the one who is going to tell their own story.” (05:29)
• Community Pressure:
  • Faced significant backlash from Palestinian activists, but found guidance from the victim’s father:
  • “I called Hossein...and he told me, if your consensus is clear, do it. If not, don’t do it...” (06:37)
  • “My own problems, it’s like very tiny for him, for such a person who passed such a tragedy.” (06:58)

3. Depicting Complexity and Collaboration (07:10–09:36)

• Navigating Multiple Narratives:
  The writers had to bridge artistic and political differences to render both Israeli and Palestinian sides with empathy.
  • Levi: “We had to bridge not only artistic differences...but also find the right narrative.” (07:37)
• Authenticity: Abu’s lived experience enhanced realism, such as in the depiction of police interrogations.
  • Abu: “I've been interrogated here and there in airports and so, and this is how it looks like.” (09:06)

4. The Universality of Hate Crime (09:36–11:04)

• Parallels Beyond Israel: Levi connects Israeli events to global hate crimes, including the US:
  • “...we are dealing with hate crime which is not necessarily particular to Israel... This is something is going on all over America and Europe towards immigrants...minorities...” (10:05)
  • On the “perfect storm” for hate crime: “If that kind of person meets with incitement at the right point, that could create the perfect storm for a hate crime. This is what we try to say.” (10:52)

5. Controversy, Criticism, and Artistic Responsibility (11:04–14:38)

• Pushback: The series drew polarized reactions in Israel.
  • “You could argue why would you do a series about Jewish terror when it’s so rare comparing to Palestinian terror? It is a legitimate question.” (11:30, Haggai Levi)
• Personal Motivation: Levi explains focusing on self-examination rather than equivalence:
  • “I always would like to dig into my own soul...” (11:49)
  • “It is not a series about terror at all...it's mainly about understanding the nature of some killer or some killers or some murder...not about terror. It's about something else...very personal for me.” (12:35)
• No one is satisfied: Abu:
  • “You can't get away with, to satisfy everybody...the series...didn't mean to satisfy anybody. It just...to dig in a story, to dig in a character, to dig in yourself and also to be critical about...the situation and the society that you are dealing with.” (13:22)
• Critique of Both Societies: Levi and Abu stress that the critical eye is turned on Israeli and Palestinian societies alike (14:32–14:38).

6. Impact & Limits of Storytelling in “Our Boys” (14:38–15:50)

• What Can Art Accomplish?
  • Levi draws from personal trauma to illustrate how storytelling humanizes “the other”:
    • “My sister...said to me, it was amazing for me to see that Abu Khadir family is just a bereaved family as we are. This is the same agony, the same pain...even if you are very liberal and self aware...you don't use to think about their loss or their agony.” (14:46)
    • “…People can see in that series the pain on the other side and...change just for a minute their position...and let the other be the victim for a moment.” (15:35)

Notable Quotes

• On Shifting Focus:
  “It wasn’t like true. It was a fictional series inspired by certain reality and certain events, but it wasn’t like true...we want to do actually is to examine the nature of hate crime, you know, to make an anatomy of hate crime.”
  — Haggai Levi (03:12, 04:19)

• On Abu Khdeir Family’s Trust:
  “All the tension they had, it suddenly became...even sweet in their faces when they realized that I'm the one who is going to tell their own story.”
  — Tofik Abu (05:29)

• On Art’s Purpose:
  “It is not a series about terror at all... It's about something else that I felt. It's very personal for me.”
  — Haggai Levi (12:35)

• On Satisfying No One:
  “You can't get away with, to satisfy everybody...the Syrian, you know, didn’t mean to satisfy anybody. It just...to dig in a story, to dig in a character, to dig in yourself and also to be critical about...the situation and the society that you are dealing with.”
  — Tofik Abu (13:22)

• On Empathy and Loss:
  “It was amazing for me to see that Abu Khadir family is just a bereaved family as we are. This is the same agony, the same pain...”
  — Haggai Levi quoting his sister (14:46)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:42: How the project began; shifting from far-right focus to a true story
• 04:52: Tofik Abu describes his initial reluctance and subsequent involvement
• 07:10: The creative and political challenges of co-writing the series
• 09:36: Levi draws parallels between Israeli hate crimes and those in the U.S.
• 11:04: The controversy and pushback received in Israeli society
• 14:46: The impact of the series: grief, empathy, and “the other”

Tone and Language

The conversation is measured, profoundly empathetic, and marked by a willingness to confront difficult truths without flinching. Both creators reflect deeply on questions of personal responsibility, artistic honesty, and the limits and potential of storytelling in addressing complex human tragedies.

Summary Conclusion

Our Boys challenges audiences to see both the individual pain and broader societal forces in moments of political violence. This podcast episode offers a rare behind-the-scenes window into the personal, creative, and ethical journeys of its creators, illustrating how honest storytelling can open empathy across even the deepest divides.