The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: Hendrik Hertzberg and Ryan Lizza on Hillary Clinton
Date: February 15, 2014
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Hendrik Hertzberg (Senior Editor and Political Essayist), Ryan Lizza (Washington Correspondent)
Episode Overview
This episode delves into the political climate surrounding Hillary Clinton as talk swirled about her potential 2016 presidential run. Host Dorothy Wickenden moderates a nuanced conversation between Hendrik Hertzberg and Ryan Lizza, dissecting Clinton’s past scandals, the recently uncovered Diane Blair papers, her time as Secretary of State, and her polarizing public perception. The discussion critically examines how Clinton’s image has evolved and how both sides of the political spectrum might approach her candidacy.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Rand Paul’s Attacks and Clinton Scandals of the 1990s
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Rand Paul’s Comments: The episode opens with Senator Rand Paul invoking the Monica Lewinsky scandal and questioning Democrats’ ties to Bill Clinton.
- Quote: “Anybody who wants to take money from Bill Clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do.” – Rand Paul [02:00]
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Motivation: Lizza asserts Paul is positioning himself for the 2016 Republican primaries, hoping to prove his partisan credentials and ability to confront the presumed frontrunner, Hillary Clinton.
- Insight: “He can take these partisan shots which are always popular with the ideologues of either party.” – Ryan Lizza [02:45]
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Re-litigating the 1990s: Hertzberg believes Paul is appealing to the “super hardcore” of the Republican base—white, older men who have long harbored animosity toward both Clintons.
- Quote: “Rand Paul is touching the G spot of the group most likely to vote in Republican primaries, the most hardcore basic group of reactionary white elderly Republicans.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [03:29]
2. The Diane Blair Papers and Hillary’s Persona
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Revelation of Papers: Conservative website Washington Free Beacon publishes Diane Blair’s diary, offering intimate insight into the Clintons’ inner lives during 1993’s tumultuous events (family deaths, Vince Foster’s suicide, health care fight).
- Insight: “It was a diary based on her very frank personal phone calls with Hillary Clinton... The diary documents both Hillary and Bill’s personal anguish... strains in their marriage.” – Ryan Lizza [04:32]
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Unexpected Portrayal: Both guests are surprised by how positively Clinton comes across—a strong, multi-dimensional, and humanized figure in contrast to the cold image often depicted in media.
- Quote: “She comes through as a human being to me in a way that she never has before.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:41]
- Quote: “If you hate Hillary Clinton, almost any part of her biography or history or new document, you probably can find a way to look at it and fit it into your preconceived notions about her.” – Ryan Lizza [06:26]
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Literary Side: The diaries reveal Hillary’s deep interest in literary fiction, demonstrating intellectual curiosity.
- Memorable moment: “My favorite entry… she was especially big on John Banville’s The Untouchable… Memoirs of a Geisha… so incredibly conversational and quote what a woman had to do to get power.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:41]
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Response to Lewinsky: Blair’s diaries show Hillary’s nuanced reaction at the height of the Lewinsky scandal—neither excusing nor ignoring, but contextualizing marital struggles amidst public tragedy.
- Quote: “It shows that there was really never a chance that this was going to destroy the Clintons’ marriage.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:40]
3. The Gendered Perception of Steely Resolve
- Steeliness as a Double Standard: Wickenden and Hertzberg discuss how Hillary’s resilience is perceived differently because she is a woman.
- Quote: “It’s an example of something that frightens people when it’s a woman but would make them admire her if she was a man. Steely. Is that something we don’t want in our presidents?” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:55]
4. The “HRC” Book and Clinton’s Loyal Circle
- Discussion of the new book "State Secrets and the Rebirth of Hillary Clinton," noting its sympathetic portrayal and the focus on Clinton's loyal aides and her tight-leash leadership style at the State Department.
- Insight: “Her longtime loyal aides who followed her into the State Department…the book is best at sort of the inside Washington stories … how the Clinton team and the Obama team got along.” – Ryan Lizza [10:25]
5. Secretary of State Achievements and Foreign Policy Approach
- Bias for Action: Clinton was often on the hawkish side in national security debates—favoring intervention in Libya and Syria more than Obama.
- Quote: “She has a bias for action... she was on the side of doing something rather than not doing something.” – Ryan Lizza [12:10]
- Mixed Record: Hertzberg credits Clinton with achievement in Burma but finds her tenure lacking a marquee diplomatic breakthrough.
- Quote: “The rap is that she doesn’t have one big thing that she can point to… she does have Burma.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [12:54]
6. Benghazi and Political Vulnerability
- Impact of Benghazi: Lizza discusses how the 2012 attacks have become the defining symbol of Clinton’s time at State in the absence of a larger achievement.
- Quote: “In the absence of something bigger, this issue of Benghazi has sort of become the headline about her tenure.” – Ryan Lizza [13:37]
7. Obama-Clinton Relationship
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Collaboration and Strategy: Clinton’s appointment as Secretary of State is praised as a strategic masterstroke that neutralized potential party conflict and enhanced both leaders’ legacies.
- Quote: “Rather have somebody inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. And it was good for Hillary, too. It’s made her more qualified to be President.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [14:42]
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Control from the White House: Both note that Obama’s administration, like others before it, consolidated most foreign policy decisions, which frustrated Clinton.
- Insight: “Every White House consolidates more and more control, especially over foreign policy inside that building. And…that was a source of immense frustration for her.” – Ryan Lizza [15:46]
8. Clinton as a 2016 Candidate: Selling the Future
- Competing with Biden and the GOP: Lizza speculates that if the Obama economy rebounds, Clinton could sell Democratic policies as more successful than Republican ones.
- Quote: “We’ve tried it two different ways… the Clinton-Obama ways work better… she’ll have a pretty easy time in the general election.” – Ryan Lizza [17:13]
- Progressive Conservatism: Hertzberg suggests that, ironically, Clinton could run as a progressive conservative—offering stability as the GOP nominee shifts further right.
- Quote: “Hillary will be the kind of progressive conservative in the race... if you’re insecure and if you’re kind of worried about the future, Hillary could be a very reassuring person to vote for.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [17:50]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Rand Paul is touching the G spot of the group most likely to vote in Republican primaries…” – Hendrik Hertzberg [03:29]
- “If you hate Hillary Clinton, almost any part of her biography… you probably can find a way to look at it and fit it into your preconceived notions about her.” – Ryan Lizza [06:26]
- “She comes through as a human being to me in a way that she never has before.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:41]
- “Steely. Is that something we don’t want in our presidents?” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:55]
- “She has a bias for action... she was on the side of doing something rather than not doing something.” – Ryan Lizza [12:10]
- “The rap is that she doesn’t have one big thing that she can point to…” – Hendrik Hertzberg [12:54]
- “Hillary will be the kind of progressive conservative in the race.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [17:50]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Rand Paul’s attacks & motivations: 01:58 – 03:29
- Diane Blair papers and their revelations: 04:17 – 07:41
- Gendered perceptions of Hillary’s resolve: 09:40 – 10:06
- “HRC” book and staff loyalty: 10:06 – 11:25
- Secretary of State foreign policy decisions: 12:04 – 12:54
- Benghazi controversy: 13:19 – 13:37
- Obama-Clinton dynamic: 14:05 – 15:46
- Speculating on 2016 and Clinton’s pitch: 17:03 – 18:51
Tone and Language
The conversation is candid, analytical, and occasionally wry—balancing deep policy insight with skepticism about political spin. The panelists blend firsthand observations, historical perspective, and personal reflections, making for a conversation that is both authoritative and intimate.
For listeners seeking a sharp, in-depth discussion of Hillary Clinton’s political persona, legacy, and challenges as of early 2014, this episode offers both insider perspectives and thoughtful cultural critique.