Hendrik Hertzberg and Ryan Lizza on Hillary Clinton

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Hendrik Hertzberg and Ryan Lizza on Hillary Clinton
Date: February 15, 2014
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Hendrik Hertzberg (Senior Editor and Political Essayist), Ryan Lizza (Washington Correspondent)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the political climate surrounding Hillary Clinton as talk swirled about her potential 2016 presidential run. Host Dorothy Wickenden moderates a nuanced conversation between Hendrik Hertzberg and Ryan Lizza, dissecting Clinton’s past scandals, the recently uncovered Diane Blair papers, her time as Secretary of State, and her polarizing public perception. The discussion critically examines how Clinton’s image has evolved and how both sides of the political spectrum might approach her candidacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rand Paul’s Attacks and Clinton Scandals of the 1990s

• Rand Paul’s Comments: The episode opens with Senator Rand Paul invoking the Monica Lewinsky scandal and questioning Democrats’ ties to Bill Clinton.

  • Quote: “Anybody who wants to take money from Bill Clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do.” – Rand Paul [02:00]

• Motivation: Lizza asserts Paul is positioning himself for the 2016 Republican primaries, hoping to prove his partisan credentials and ability to confront the presumed frontrunner, Hillary Clinton.

  • Insight: “He can take these partisan shots which are always popular with the ideologues of either party.” – Ryan Lizza [02:45]

• Re-litigating the 1990s: Hertzberg believes Paul is appealing to the “super hardcore” of the Republican base—white, older men who have long harbored animosity toward both Clintons.

  • Quote: “Rand Paul is touching the G spot of the group most likely to vote in Republican primaries, the most hardcore basic group of reactionary white elderly Republicans.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [03:29]

2. The Diane Blair Papers and Hillary’s Persona

• Revelation of Papers: Conservative website Washington Free Beacon publishes Diane Blair’s diary, offering intimate insight into the Clintons’ inner lives during 1993’s tumultuous events (family deaths, Vince Foster’s suicide, health care fight).

  • Insight: “It was a diary based on her very frank personal phone calls with Hillary Clinton... The diary documents both Hillary and Bill’s personal anguish... strains in their marriage.” – Ryan Lizza [04:32]

• Unexpected Portrayal: Both guests are surprised by how positively Clinton comes across—a strong, multi-dimensional, and humanized figure in contrast to the cold image often depicted in media.

  • Quote: “She comes through as a human being to me in a way that she never has before.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:41]
  • Quote: “If you hate Hillary Clinton, almost any part of her biography or history or new document, you probably can find a way to look at it and fit it into your preconceived notions about her.” – Ryan Lizza [06:26]

• Literary Side: The diaries reveal Hillary’s deep interest in literary fiction, demonstrating intellectual curiosity.

  • Memorable moment: “My favorite entry… she was especially big on John Banville’s The Untouchable… Memoirs of a Geisha… so incredibly conversational and quote what a woman had to do to get power.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:41]

• Response to Lewinsky: Blair’s diaries show Hillary’s nuanced reaction at the height of the Lewinsky scandal—neither excusing nor ignoring, but contextualizing marital struggles amidst public tragedy.

  • Quote: “It shows that there was really never a chance that this was going to destroy the Clintons’ marriage.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:40]

3. The Gendered Perception of Steely Resolve

• Steeliness as a Double Standard: Wickenden and Hertzberg discuss how Hillary’s resilience is perceived differently because she is a woman.
  • Quote: “It’s an example of something that frightens people when it’s a woman but would make them admire her if she was a man. Steely. Is that something we don’t want in our presidents?” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:55]

4. The “HRC” Book and Clinton’s Loyal Circle

• Discussion of the new book "State Secrets and the Rebirth of Hillary Clinton," noting its sympathetic portrayal and the focus on Clinton's loyal aides and her tight-leash leadership style at the State Department.
  • Insight: “Her longtime loyal aides who followed her into the State Department…the book is best at sort of the inside Washington stories … how the Clinton team and the Obama team got along.” – Ryan Lizza [10:25]

5. Secretary of State Achievements and Foreign Policy Approach

• Bias for Action: Clinton was often on the hawkish side in national security debates—favoring intervention in Libya and Syria more than Obama.
  • Quote: “She has a bias for action... she was on the side of doing something rather than not doing something.” – Ryan Lizza [12:10]
• Mixed Record: Hertzberg credits Clinton with achievement in Burma but finds her tenure lacking a marquee diplomatic breakthrough.
  • Quote: “The rap is that she doesn’t have one big thing that she can point to… she does have Burma.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [12:54]

6. Benghazi and Political Vulnerability

• Impact of Benghazi: Lizza discusses how the 2012 attacks have become the defining symbol of Clinton’s time at State in the absence of a larger achievement.
  • Quote: “In the absence of something bigger, this issue of Benghazi has sort of become the headline about her tenure.” – Ryan Lizza [13:37]

7. Obama-Clinton Relationship

• Collaboration and Strategy: Clinton’s appointment as Secretary of State is praised as a strategic masterstroke that neutralized potential party conflict and enhanced both leaders’ legacies.

  • Quote: “Rather have somebody inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. And it was good for Hillary, too. It’s made her more qualified to be President.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [14:42]

• Control from the White House: Both note that Obama’s administration, like others before it, consolidated most foreign policy decisions, which frustrated Clinton.

  • Insight: “Every White House consolidates more and more control, especially over foreign policy inside that building. And…that was a source of immense frustration for her.” – Ryan Lizza [15:46]

8. Clinton as a 2016 Candidate: Selling the Future

• Competing with Biden and the GOP: Lizza speculates that if the Obama economy rebounds, Clinton could sell Democratic policies as more successful than Republican ones.
  • Quote: “We’ve tried it two different ways… the Clinton-Obama ways work better… she’ll have a pretty easy time in the general election.” – Ryan Lizza [17:13]
• Progressive Conservatism: Hertzberg suggests that, ironically, Clinton could run as a progressive conservative—offering stability as the GOP nominee shifts further right.
  • Quote: “Hillary will be the kind of progressive conservative in the race... if you’re insecure and if you’re kind of worried about the future, Hillary could be a very reassuring person to vote for.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [17:50]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Rand Paul is touching the G spot of the group most likely to vote in Republican primaries…” – Hendrik Hertzberg [03:29]
• “If you hate Hillary Clinton, almost any part of her biography… you probably can find a way to look at it and fit it into your preconceived notions about her.” – Ryan Lizza [06:26]
• “She comes through as a human being to me in a way that she never has before.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:41]
• “Steely. Is that something we don’t want in our presidents?” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:55]
• “She has a bias for action... she was on the side of doing something rather than not doing something.” – Ryan Lizza [12:10]
• “The rap is that she doesn’t have one big thing that she can point to…” – Hendrik Hertzberg [12:54]
• “Hillary will be the kind of progressive conservative in the race.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [17:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rand Paul’s attacks & motivations: 01:58 – 03:29
• Diane Blair papers and their revelations: 04:17 – 07:41
• Gendered perceptions of Hillary’s resolve: 09:40 – 10:06
• “HRC” book and staff loyalty: 10:06 – 11:25
• Secretary of State foreign policy decisions: 12:04 – 12:54
• Benghazi controversy: 13:19 – 13:37
• Obama-Clinton dynamic: 14:05 – 15:46
• Speculating on 2016 and Clinton’s pitch: 17:03 – 18:51

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Tone and Language

The conversation is candid, analytical, and occasionally wry—balancing deep policy insight with skepticism about political spin. The panelists blend firsthand observations, historical perspective, and personal reflections, making for a conversation that is both authoritative and intimate.

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For listeners seeking a sharp, in-depth discussion of Hillary Clinton’s political persona, legacy, and challenges as of early 2014, this episode offers both insider perspectives and thoughtful cultural critique.

Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about politics. It's Friday, February 14th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. Hillary Clinton says she hasn't decided whether to run for president in 2016, but just about everybody is sure she will. One of her potential opponents in the general election, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, has been reminding people of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

[Ryan Lizza]

Anybody who wants to take money from Bill Clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do. In fact, I think they should give the money back. If they want to take a position on women's rights, by all means do. But you can't do it and take it from a guy who is using his position of authority to take advantage of young women in the workplace.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was Rand Paul recently On C Span. Hendrick Hertzberg and Ryan Lizza are with us from Washington to talk about Hillary Clinton, who once again is being both vilified and valorized. Ryan, at the time of Clinton's predatory behavior, as Rand Paul described it, Hillary got a lot of sympathy as a wronged spouse. As I recall, her ratings went way up today. She's probably the most famous advocate in the world for women. What got Rand Paul on this track again?

[Ryan Lizza]

He's running for president, right? He's undoubtedly going to be running in the 2016 Republican primaries. He's made no secret of that. And I think he's looking for opportunities to show the base of the Republican Party that he can take these partisan shots which are always popular with the ideologues of either party. And two, I think he's trying to show folks that he is strategically and politically savvy and that if he were the Republican nominee, and I think most Republicans believe that Hillary Clinton is going to be their opponent, he's trying to show that he can make the case against her and he's not afraid of this titan on the Democratic side.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rick, are we destined in the next few years to relive the scandals of the late 90s?

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Well, that's obviously what Rand Paul would like us to do. I think, however, that it's highly unlikely. What Rand Paul really is doing here is targeting the super hardcore of the base, and that is white men maybe over age 45 who hate Obama and they hated Clinton. I mean, we tend to forget how poisonous the right was about Clinton. Let's not forget they impeached the guy by bringing up Lewinsky and the scandal. Again, Rand Paul is touching the G spot of the group most likely to vote in Republican primaries, the most hardcore basic group of reactionary white elderly Republicans.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Well, and it's interesting, Ryan, that last week this tiny conservative website called the Washington Free Beacon dug out of the archives the papers of Diane Blair, a good friend of Hillary Clinton's who died several years ago. What did the papers reveal about Hillary Clinton?

[Ryan Lizza]

The most interesting trove that they posted on their website, 40 pages. Much of it was a sort of diary by Diane Blair, Hillary's good friend of the first few years of the Clinton administration. And it was a diary based on her very frank personal phone calls with Hillary Clinton. And historically, it's a really amazing document. Especially I found the diary from the first year, 1993, that incredibly turbulent year where both Clintons were dealing with the death of parents and they were dealing with the suicide of their close friend from Arkansas, Vince Foster. And they were dealing with the drama over trying to pass health care. And the diary documents both Hillary and Bill's personal anguish over all those things, strains in their marriage and Hillary Clinton's response to all of those epic events in that year.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Yeah, and this is a trove of documents that I'm sure the Washington Free Beacon thought was going to be the silver bullet that would destroy Hillary. And they must have been unpleasantly surprised when they actually read this stuff because at least this reader, I read them carefully and I came out of it thinking much more highly of Hillary in many, many ways than I felt before I read them. They really are extraordinary. And they show the Clintons. They show Hillary as a strong person, an understanding person, not a cold person, somebody with strong emot, but the discipline to keep them from damaging her publicly. And it shows the Clinton marriage too, as a real three dimensional deep connection. And their struggle together to get over this awfulness is really, really impressive.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Ryan, aren't these papers really kind of a Rorschach test about how people fundamentally feel about Hillary Clinton?

[Ryan Lizza]

I mean, if you hate Hillary Clinton, almost any part of her biography or history or new document, you probably can find a way to look at it and fit it into your preconceived notions about her.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

But why is she so polarizing beyond the obvious that she's a woman who has run for president and seems to intend to again?

[Ryan Lizza]

Well, look, the structure of our system is that anyone who rises to a certain level and is the leader of the opposing party is, is going to be transformed into some ideological monster in the eyes of the other party.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

I guess you're right about it being a Rorschach test, although it has, for me, it has actually changed my view of her.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

How so, Rick?

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Well, some of it is sort of what you might call, you know, color material. For example, I'm impressed with how much literary fiction she reads. Yeah. You know, many of these conversations with Diane Blair are about the books they're reading. And these are not, you know, pop fiction or self help or even policy books. They're real high level literary fiction.

[Ryan Lizza]

I thought the same thing.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

And they're serious about it.

[Ryan Lizza]

I thought the same thing. I thought, if she has time to read that, why don't I. I've got no excuse.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Like what, Rick?

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Okay, well, here's an example. I mean, my favorite entry in Diane Blair's diary here is from September 9, 1998. It's a long entry. She says we talked about books. She was especially Big on John Banville's the Untouchable, not so much for story as for writing. And Memoirs of a Geisha, which she and I had loved, transported into that culture. So incredibly conversational and quote what a woman had to do to get power. Hmm. Notes Diane Blair. That's so true. And there are many, there are quite a few such passages about the reading they're doing. She comes through as a human being to me in a way that she never has before.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And what about on the Lewinsky business? There were some moments in there as well where you got a more kind of inside perspective from her.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Well, this entry was written right at kind of the peak of that. She's not trying to excuse him. It was a huge personal lapse and she's not taking responsibility for it. But she does say this to put his actions in context. Ever since he took office they've been going through personal tragedy. Vince, her dad, his mom. And immediately all the ugly forces started making up hateful things about them, pounding on them. They adopted a strategya public strategy of acting as though it didn't bother them. They had to. And she didn't realize the toll it was taking on him. She has staff she can vent with, can call Starr and sob, et cetera. Starr being the special prosecutor who was going after the Clintons, calling Starr and sobshe has friends like me she totally and completely trusts. He does not anything he says gets leaked to the world. She thinks she was not smart enough, not sensitive enough, not free enough of her own concerns and struggles to realize the he was paying. So it's things like that. It's the sort of three dimensional fullness of the life she's living. I think one thing that surprised me about this is it shows that there was really never a chance that this was going to destroy the Clintons marriage.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

RICK One of the things that astonished me was after the impeachment she was able to say most people in this town have no pain threshold. So she also had that unbelievable steely side which I think frightened a lot of people.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

And it's an example of something that frightens people when it's a woman but would make them admire her if she was a man. Steely. Is that something we don't want in our presidents?

[Dorothy Wickenden]

RYAN A new book has come out this week called State Secrets and the Rebirth of Hillary Clinton by Jonathan Allen and Annie Parness. And interestingly, it's a very sympathetic portrayal of her. And in the book, as far as I could tell, there's just as much cussing and Bossiness as there is in the Blair papers.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Yeah.

[Ryan Lizza]

And one thing that it reinforces, the section that Rick just read where Hillary Clinton talks about how Bill doesn't have anyone he can trust. As soon as Bill says something in the White House, it gets leaked to the press. Whereas Hillary's staff is super loyal and she runs a very tight operation. Not everything gets leaked. This new book, hrc, that is one of the themes of the book is her longtime loyal aides who followed her into the State Department. The book is best at sort of the inside Washington stories of especially in the first year, how the Clinton team and the Obama team got along, how they tried to make this strained relationship work. One of the chapters that's quite well reported is over the drama about whether Hillary Clinton was actually going to take the job or not. And she actually, she told the president or the president elect at the time that she didn't want it, she wasn't going to do it. And Obama started avoiding her phone calls because he knew she was going to say no and he didn't want to hear it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Okay, I want to talk about some of Hillary's biggest foreign policy achievements, but we have to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

Were there any real differences between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama on the Bin Laden raid?

[Ryan Lizza]

In most of the debates inside the administration where there was a question about the use of force, Hillary Clinton was almost always on on the hawkish side of the debates. The bin Laden raid. One of the advisors to Hillary is quoted in the book saying she has a bias for action. Now that's a sort of self serving quote from a loyal aide probably. But it does seem to be true in some of these debates that she was on the side of doing something rather than not doing something. So in Libya she was on the side of bombing. In Syria, she was on the side of intervening. And obviously Obama was reluctant. He thought it would do more harm than good.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rick, what do you think about Hillary's accomplishments as Secretary of State?

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Well, the rap is that she doesn't have one big thing that she can point to, you know, one kind of Mideast peace treaty or Iran disarmament or something like that. She does have Burma, the restoration of something close to normalcy in Burma, but what else is there to really point to? You know, if John Kerry is going for the big enchilada in the Middle East. And it's unclear to me whether Hillary really tried to do that.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And Ryan, we have to, of course, talk about Benghazi and the killing of US Ambassador Christopher Stevens and another diplomat by militants in 2012. That was the worst political episode for her as Secretary of State. How much truth was there to the charge that the State Department failed to heed requests for more security?

[Ryan Lizza]

I think that the record shows that they could have done more before that. There were requests that went up the chain of command and were not responded to. I think one of the dangers of Hillary not having some Camp David accord or some big breakthrough peace agreement that everyone can sort of remember is that this issue of Benghazi has sort of become the headline about her tenure in the absence of something bigger.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rick, let's get back to domestic politics for a second. To me, at least, the most fascinating dynamic in Democratic politics since 2008 has been something that you both alluded to earlier, which is the evolving relationship between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. And last January they made an unusual appearance on 60 Minutes.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

I just wanted to have a chance to publicly say thank you because I think Hillary will go down as one of the finest Secretary of State we've had. It has been a great collaboration over the last four years. I'm going to miss her wish she was sticking around.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rick, what did you think about that?

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Well, the appointment of Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State was one of the great transformations of a sow's ear into a silk purse that anyone ever came up with. It was an extraordinary win win move for both of them. It was probably more so, perhaps, for Obama, who solved the main internal Democratic Party problem he would have had to face for four years, which would have been an alienated Clinton machine out there sniping. He followed Johnson's admonition that you rather have somebody inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. And it was good for Hillary, too. It's filled out her resume. It's made her more qualified to be President. It was a great move on both sides and it would be great if Hillary had been able to pull off a diplomatic coup of similar dimensions, but the political coup was pretty huge.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

There was a lot of reporting about how tight a leash she was on and that Obama really was trying to control foreign policy from the White House.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

How shocking.

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah, this is a story of every, every White House consolidates more and more control, especially over foreign policy inside that building. And from all accounts, that was a source of immense frustration for her.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rick, because it's Valentine's Day, I want to cite a remarkable moment in HRC which came after Hillary suffered her concussion, which was, you know, extremely serious. And she was supp to be testifying on the Hill about Benghazi. And the President asks one of Clinton's staffers, how's my girl doing? And then he said, I love her, love her. I love my friend.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Oh, that's making me tear up. I knew what it was. I'm a softie for these things.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

How about you, Ron?

[Ryan Lizza]

I'm not. I don't believe it. It sounds like one of those self serving anecdotes.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

It sure does.

[Ryan Lizza]

Hillary Clinton or Obama's advisor served up to the author of the book. I mean, I hate to be cynical, but.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

No you don't.

[Ryan Lizza]

The book suff differs a little bit from being a little too credulous.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Final question for both of you. Given the fact that the right wingers are trying to drag us all back into the era of Whitewater and Vince Foster and the rest, how would Hillary sell herself at a somewhat advanced age as the voice of the future of the Democratic party? If she were to run, she would.

[Ryan Lizza]

Run against Joe Biden, who would have an even more difficult time making that case post primaries.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

What would she run on now?

[Ryan Lizza]

A lot depends on what happens in the next couple of years with the economy. Right? If the economy comes back and if unemployment is low and if she can point to the economic policies of the Obama years as more successful than not, she'll be able to say, look, we've got a few decades of experience here. We've tried it two different ways. We've tried it the Reagan Bush ways and we've tried it the Clinton Obama ways and the Clinton Obama ways work better. If she can make that simple argument. If the numbers back her up, then I think she'll have a pretty easy time in the general election and all of this stuff about Benghazi and Whitewater and all the background noise will be meaningless.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Rick, in a way she can run as the conservative candidate, in the old fashioned meaning of that term, her Republican opponent. Assuming she gets the nomination, her Republican opponent will have been pushed to the right sufficiently to not only to be portrayed as a radical, but to actually be a radical. And Hillary will be the kind of progressive conservative in the race. And if you want to keep a government that affords some protection to the weak and the old and the sick and you want somebody who's of proven competence and experience, these are the qualities that she'll be selling against some right winger. I actually think the Republicans will end up with some nice Midwestern governor. But even so, I think if you're insecure and if you're kind of worried about the future, Hillary could be a very reassuring person to vote for. And at the same time, of course, you'd be voting for the first woman to be president of the United States in the history of the United States.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thank you both very much.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Thank you, Dorothy.

[Ryan Lizza]

Thanks, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Hendrick Hertzberg is a senior editor and political essayist, and Ryan Lizza is the magazine's Washington correspondent. This has been the Political Scene from the New Yorker. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

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[Ryan Lizza]

America is changing, and so is the world.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

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I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

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Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Hendrick Hertzberg]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

From.

[Ryan Lizza]

PRX.