The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: How Bad Is It?: Political Violence in the U.S., and What We Can Learn from Brazil
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Tyler Foggatt (A), Andrew Marantz (B)
Guest: Petra Costa (C), Brazilian filmmaker

Overview

This episode of "The Political Scene" explores the alarming rise of political violence in the U.S. with the recent assassination of activist Charlie Kirk and seeks international perspective by drawing parallels with Brazil’s own descent into democratic crisis. Through an in-depth conversation with filmmaker Petra Costa—whose documentaries chronicle Brazil’s political unraveling—the hosts confront themes of polarization, backsliding democracy, the normalization of violence, and the uneasy tools democracies use to defend themselves.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Killing of Charlie Kirk: An Inflection Point

• Political violence as both a symptom and a catalyst
  • The assassination marks a possible turning point in the health of American democracy, not only by highlighting physical danger, but also by being wielded as a justification for retrenchment and restriction of civil liberties.
  • “It could unleash a cycle of retribution. It could also be a place for people, including people in government, to use it as a pretext for further crackdowns…” —Andrew (02:47)
• Parallel to other countries?
  • While the U.S. has a history of political violence and gun violence, this kind of high-profile political assassination sets off alarm bells similar to those experienced in other countries experiencing democratic decline, particularly Brazil.

2. Political Violence and Democratic Backsliding

• Violence used as a pretext for repression
  • Discussion about Trump allies (Pam Bondi, Stephen Miller) using the Kirk assassination to call for crackdown on leftist groups and speech.
  • “Pam Bondi is saying free speech is one thing, hate speech is another thing. Stephen Miller is talking about cracking down on the groups that foment this sort of thing…” —Andrew (04:01)
  • Readiness of the government to invoke emergency powers in response to violence (“…if that’s what they do in response to a carjacking, what might they do in response to this much more scary and high profile thing?” —Andrew, 04:01)
• Chilling effects on democratic participation
  • Violence and the threat of state retaliation can deter people from participating in politics (“If you feel like participating in political discourse is taking your life in your hands, then how many people are just never going to even consider doing it?” —Andrew, 04:53)

3. America and Brazil: Drawing Parallels

• Brazil as a cautionary tale for political violence:
  • Assassination of city councilor Marielle Franco, January 8th riots (Brazil’s “January 6th”), public pleas for military intervention, election interference.
  • “Brazil…has the most similar mix of a place that was a consolidated democracy for less long than the U.S…then…the ambient threat of violence and the specter of violence…really kind of started to sink back from that consolidated democratic status.” —Andrew (07:50)

4. Petra Costa on Brazil’s Democratic Trauma

• Witnessing democracy's unraveling
  • Costa’s documentaries are deeply personal explorations of democracy’s fragility, tracing Brazil’s trajectory from hope to disillusionment.
  • “I felt that democracy…was my birthright…after 21 years to have established democracy, and then…to see it starting to crumble through democratic processes itself…” —Petra Costa (13:48)
• How Democracies Die—Slowly
  • Democracies today are often eroded from within via the disrespect of unwritten norms, not sudden coups—an erosion of respect for political opposition and normal political contestation.
  • Quote: “Fragile democracies have one advantage over solid ones. They know when they're over. Generals close the congress, occupy the TV stations, and everyone knows what happened. But democracies can also end slowly.” —Andrew (reading Costa’s narration, 16:34)

5. The Role of Violence and Impunity in Brazil

• Bolsonaro’s embrace of violent rhetoric
  • “He became a candidate for Congress and won by defending the return of the military dictatorship…he said, if I win, I will kill 30,000 people…” —Petra Costa (21:27)
• Why Bolsonaro’s conviction matters
  • First time a Brazilian coup plotter has been convicted—marked as a “civilizational threshold” and a sign of possibly overcoming impunity.
  • “After 10 years of successive sad moments…it's one of the most greatest moments of joy for me as a citizen to see that political violence will not continue to go with impunity in my country.” —Petra Costa (23:11)
  • The abundance of evidence combined with the memory and trauma of prior coups enabled accountability: “The trauma…of our last coup…is still a memory that is very alive for many people, for most of the Supreme Court justices…” —Petra Costa (24:05)

6. Limits and Risks of “Emergency” Democratic Defenses

• Judicial overreach as a double-edged sword
  • “A lot of what has happened in Brazil is basically taking power away from Bolsonaro…by giving more power to these other sort of unchecked and unelected branches of government, like the Supreme Court… it's just a very fraught and treacherous model to follow.” —Andrew (32:00–33:10)
• No simple template for the U.S.
  • The U.S. constitutional protections like the First Amendment limit direct crackdowns, yet there is increasing political pressure and “chilling effect” rhetoric (“…the sitting Vice President…levying these kind of threats…we should look out for…I think we might be in kind of uncharted water here.” —Andrew, 35:05)

7. Polarization, Empathy, and the Limits of Repair

• Enduring fragility even with accountability
  • “Democracy is always going to be incredibly fragile if violence is on the table.” —Tyler (44:13)
• Empathy as the only path forward
  • Costa stresses “the only way out of this polarization is empathy, is to try to understand…what has led [some Brazilians] to really align themselves…with religious fundamentalism…” (28:24)
• The normalization of dread
  • From activists in bulletproof vests to apathy around routine violence, the “ambient threat” changes the nature of democracy (“…you can’t vote on a bill without worrying about taking your life in your hands.” —Tyler, 42:32)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Crackdown Rhetoric:
  “We are going to channel all of the anger that we have over the organized campaign that led to this assassination to uproot and dismantle these terrorist networks…the organized doxing campaigns…posting people's addresses…It is a vast domestic terror movement. We are going to use every resource…to identify, disrupt, dismantle and destroy these networks and make America safe again for the American people. It will happen, and we will do it in Charlie's name.” —Stephen Miller, as recounted by Andrew (05:22)

• On How Democracies Die:
  “Fragile democracies have one advantage over solid ones. They know when they're over…But democracies can also end slowly.” —Petra Costa (via Andrew, 16:34)

• On the Joy—and Irony—of Bolsonaro’s Conviction:
  “So that the southern country, in the southern part of the hemisphere could be now giving lessons of maturity to the rest of the world is quite interesting.” —Petra Costa (24:05)

• On the Normalization of Violence:
  “There's just a certain amount of this stuff that we learn to live with. Another day, another school shooting…now we're talking about maybe everyone in Congress should get an armed guard detail. …we forget how bizarre and depressing it is that you can't vote on a bill without worrying about taking your life in your hands.” —Andrew (42:32)

• On the Enduring Work of Democracy:
  “The job is never totally over as long as violence is on the table…The challenge of liberal democracy is having people coexist without hurting each other, and we suck at it.” —Andrew (45:43)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:17 — Initial reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination and its implications
• 02:47 — Political violence and democratic backsliding: is violence an indicator or a precursor?
• 07:27 — Why Brazil is the relevant comparison for U.S. politics
• 13:01 — Introduction of Petra Costa; Brazil’s democratic trauma and personal stakes
• 16:34 — "How democracies die" and the “slow end” of democratic norms
• 19:01–21:27 — Political violence in Brazil, Bolsonaro’s rhetoric, impunity, and consequences
• 23:11–24:05 — The significance of Bolsonaro’s conviction and lessons for the U.S.
• 28:24 — Living with the ambient threat of violence, polarization, and empathy
• 32:00 — U.S. and Brazil: Comparing checks and balances, and concerns about unelected power
• 35:05 — U.S. chilling effect and risk of governmental overreach in the name of security
• 44:13 — The unending fragility of democracy in violent societies
• 45:43 — Summation: enduring risks, the cost of politics under threat

Final Reflection

This episode offers a sobering look at global democratic fragility, showing that even when accountability is achieved (as in Brazil) the shadow of violence leaves democracy precarious. The hosts and Petra Costa emphasize that the only path away from polarization and fear may be empathy and engagement—not repression. But as the U.S. reels from a fresh wound, the specter of repressive overreach, normalized dread, and creeping democratic erosion looms large.

For listeners seeking a nuanced, first-person account of democracy’s vulnerability—and the dangers and tradeoffs of defending it—this episode is both illuminating and unsettling.