The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: "How Bad Is It?: Why an Antifascism Scholar Fled the Country"
Date: October 30, 2025
Hosts: Tyler Foggatt (TF), Andrew Marantz (AM)
Guests: Mark Bray (MB), Yesenia Barragan (YB)

Overview

This episode of The Political Scene examines escalating threats to academic freedom in the U.S., focusing on the recent experiences of antifascism scholars Mark Bray and Yesenia Barragan. Both fled to Spain after a wave of online harassment and death threats—a situation intensifying in the wake of recent political violence, the Trump administration's executive order targeting Antifa as a terrorist group, and coordinated campaigns by right-wing groups like Turning Point USA. The episode explores the personal, academic, and political dimensions of their decision, connecting it to historical and contemporary debates on fascism, free speech, activism, and the nature of political violence.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Did It Come to This?

• (04:01–06:56)

• Triggering Event:
  Mark Bray recounts a relatively calm five years post-publication of his book, The Antifascist Handbook (2017), until the recent killing of conservative figure Charlie Kirk. Even before facts emerged, the Trump administration blamed leftists, using the moment to justify executive action against Antifa.

  “It was really after the killing of Charlie Kirk last month that everything started. ... Jack Posobiec called me a domestic terrorist professor on X. The day after, I received the first death threat…” (MB, 04:01)

• Escalation:
  After being doxxed (personal information posted online), increasing threats led to emergency security measures and ultimately, the difficult decision to leave the country.

  “...someone posted our home address online with information about my family. And it just felt like one thing after another was mounting...” (MB, 05:17)

• Personal Impact:
  Yesenia describes the panic of receiving the threats, the logistics of leaving, and efforts to shield their children from trauma.

  “I immediately said, leave the house, just take the kids and just pick me up and we’ll figure it out. That was a really horrible day.” (YB, 06:19)

2. Dangers to Academic Freedom

• (08:39–10:11)

• Support from Rutgers:
  Both guests emphasize university support—from faculty, administration, and student bodies—but also frame this as a broader assault on academic freedom and critical scholarship.

  “...this is just a very clear attack on academic freedom. Mark wrote a book eight years ago, and he’s getting attacked for that book. It’s that simple.” (YB, 09:32)

• The Scope of the Threat:
  The threats and pressure are not merely personal; they reflect a wider trend targeting scholars in areas like gender, race, climate change, and social justice.

3. The Role of the Professor Watch List

• (11:49–14:47)

• Origins of Harassment:
  Mark Bray details how being placed by Turning Point USA on an online “professor watch list” led to waves of harassment, not only recently but also at the time of his book’s release.

  “...there’s been an effort for at least a decade by Turning Point USA and similar kinds of groups to reshape the university in their image. ...Hand-wringing about cancel culture...this is having far more of an effect of shutting down different opinions...” (MB, 13:27)

• Intended Consequences:
  Bray argues the “ostensibly” informative list is knowingly a mechanism for intimidation, with clear and documented negative outcomes.

  “This list does result in the kinds of threats that Turning Point has recently tried to distance itself from.” (MB, 15:52)

4. Exile, State vs. Nonstate Threats, and Language

• (17:06–18:47)

• Voluntary or Forced Exile:
  The guests push back against terms like “voluntary self-exile,” highlighting the involuntary, fear-driven nature of their decision.

  “I don't like the phrase voluntarily self-exile...I think that we fled the country. I didn't feel safe living in the United States, which sounds absolutely bonkers.” (YB, 17:06)

• Gray Areas:
  It’s not classic state repression, but the merger of state rhetoric/actions (executive orders) and mob/online pressure creates a climate of fear akin to historical episodes of intellectual flight.

5. Antifascism, Free Speech, and the Limits of Liberalism

• (24:02–42:40)

• Bray’s Book and Its Arguments:
  AM reads a passage situating the book as a partisan “call to arms” and probing its challenge to “liberal norms of free speech.” Bray underscores the historical gap he aimed to fill and rejects equivalence between all forms of speech.

  “I think that Americans assume that the whole world has this American liberal interpretation of speech...Different countries have laws against hate speech...the results of certain kinds of speech that dehumanize other people.” (MB, 25:51)

• What is “the far right” and “social revolutionism”?

  “Most [antifa adherents] are radicals or revolutionaries—socialist, communist, anarchist... militant antifascism rejects turning to the police or the courts...there is a kind of challenge to the sovereignty of the state embedded within...militant anti fascism.” (MB, 28:34)

• Debates Over Tactics and Violence:
  The line between activist speech, self-defense, and violent direct action is discussed. Bray insists the actual empirical record of “antifa violence” is thin compared to rightwing attacks—and that violence for self-defense against fascism is not equivalent to fascist violence.

  “...when you are under attack from these movements, self-defense is necessary...the violence of those defending themselves is not on the same ethical or moral or historical category as the violence of those people who are trying to kill them.” (MB, 42:40)

• Doxxing and Retribution:
  The ethics of doxxing as a political tool are examined. Bray distinguishes between exposing hidden Nazis and targeted harassment of academics.

  “My views are better than theirs... anti-racism is better than racism, feminism is better than sexism...when a Nazi doxes a professor...that is infinitely worse and not the same thing as an anti fascist doxing a Nazi..." (MB, 39:06)

6. The Trump Administration’s Antifa Order & Broader Chilling Effects

• (43:55–59:23)

• Caricature and Overreach:
  The executive order is described as terrifyingly broad, defining “terrorism” in a way that could criminalize huge swaths of dissent—anyone “anti-family,” “anti-Christian,” or extreme on race, gender, or migration.

  “...if you take those words seriously, they could just go after almost anyone and call them a terrorist...hostility toward traditional views of family...most of which would apply to almost everyone I know.” (AM, 57:24)

• Discussion of Boogeyman Politics:
  Both hosts agree that while Antifa’s organizational reality may be ambiguous, it functions for the right as a convenient scapegoat and justification to expand state power over ideological enemies.

7. Academic Exile: Exception or Precedent?

• (49:24–55:45)

• Is This the Start of a Wave?
  The hosts debate whether this is a harbinger of mass academic flight or a high-profile, isolated case.

  “Academic freedom, broadly speaking, seems more imperiled than it’s been in a generation.” (AM, 49:24)

• The Limits of “Both Sides” Liberalism:
  The episode grapples with whether it’s sustainable to “find a way to live around people whose views you find odious,” given both the realities of power and the attraction of hard-edged illiberal arguments from left and right.

8. Final Takeaways: Political Violence and Resistance

• (45:27–48:32, 60:00–61:15)

• Bray’s Hope and Caution:
  Despite pessimism, Bray calls for protest and resistance, noting fascism is not yet consolidated and action could change the country’s trajectory.

  “We don’t have fascism in a full sense. ...If the line continues at this trajectory, sure, we end up at fascism, but we don’t know what will happen. The future’s unwritten, and our resistance and our action can make the line go down.” (MB, 46:30)

• Host Reflections:
  The hosts confront the uncomfortable reality that illiberal arguments—whether liberal tolerance is sufficient, or if preemptive, partisan “calls to arms” are justified—have once again become central political questions.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Mark Bray on Escalation and Fear:

  “The day after, I received the first death threat saying that someone was going to kill me in front of my students.” (MB, 04:01)

• Yesenia Barragan on Family Crisis:

  “I immediately said, leave the house, just take the kids...That was a really horrible day.” (YB, 06:19)

• On the Professor Watch List:

  “Despite all of the hand wringing about Cancel culture, this is having far more of an effect of shutting down different opinions than that which is usually attacked by the right.” (MB, 13:27)

• On Doxxing and Power:

  "Because my views are better than theirs. ...When a Nazi doxxes a professor...that is infinitely worse and not the same thing as an anti fascist doxing a Nazi so that his university knows he's a Nazi..." (MB, 39:06)

• On the Political Trajectory:

  “If the line continues at this trajectory, sure, we end up at fascism, but we don’t know what will happen. The future’s unwritten, and our resistance and our action can make the line go down.” (MB, 46:30)

• On the Executive Order and Antifa as Boogeyman:

  “If you take those words seriously, they could just go after almost anyone and call them a terrorist. ...hostility toward traditional views of family, like, I don’t know. I don’t like Leave It To Beaver’s view of what a family should be—am I a terrorist?" (AM, 57:24)

Episode Timeline of Key Segments

• 04:01 – Mark Bray recounts terror campaign and decision to flee
• 09:32 – Discussion on university and faculty support, academic freedom
• 11:49 – Examination of Turning Point USA’s professor watch list
• 17:06 – “Exile” vs. “voluntary self-departure” and the sense of threat
• 24:02 – Delving into Bray’s book and critiques of liberalism
• 32:50 – Addressing violence, both "antifa" and far right
• 39:06 – Debates over doxxing, speech, and ethical distinctions
• 45:27 – Reflection on political trajectory and hope for resistance
• 49:24 – Host analysis on whether this is a precedent for further academic exile
• 57:24 – The executive order’s dangerous breadth and chilling effect

Tone and Language

• The episode combines analytic, historical, and deeply personal storytelling.
• Bray and Barragan are forthright, sometimes impassioned; they balance the gravity of their situation with commitment to their work and concern for their children's safety.
• The hosts maintain a reflective, thoughtful tone, grappling openly with the ethical and political dilemmas.

Takeaways

• The convergence of state action and mob harassment is creating unprecedented risks for scholars and activists.
• Ongoing debates over the limits of free speech, academic freedom, and how societies respond to fascism are not academic—they have urgent, personal stakes.
• The episode closes on caution but also a note of activism and hope: the future is still unwritten, and action matters.

This summary provides a comprehensive guide to the episode’s critical arcs and arguments, valuable for anyone interested in free speech, political violence, academic freedom, and the current American political crisis.