← The Political Scene | The New Yorker
The Political Scene | The New Yorker
How Tesla Dealerships Became the Epicenter of the Trump Resistance
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- [00:00]
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- [01:50]
Tyler Foggatt
Hey Sarah, thanks so much for being here.
- [01:52]
Sarah Larson
Hey Tyler, thanks for having me.
- [01:55]
Tyler Foggatt
I'm wondering if we can just start by having you tell us what was going on at Tesla dealerships over the weekend.
- [02:00]
Sarah Larson
Yes, it was a lot of anger, a lot of solidarity and a lot of very funny and upsetting signs. A lot of kind of funny costumes. Really sad fascist related imagery of Elon doing this sort of Nazi salute and things saying this is the immigrant taking your jobs reasonably, that kind of thing. But it was people of all ages chanting and being emotional and a lot of cops standing around looking at everyone kind of warily, but it never felt like things were going to get out of control or confrontational in a bad way. There was even a moment where a sort of nutty protester was swearing at a cop and she kept calling him Quaker Oats and he just was sort of shaking, shaking his head. And she was wearing a bikini. Yeah. And she was filming it all. I don't know what was happening, but he just kind of took it in stride. And then another person there was vociferously thanking the cop for everything cops do. I don't know what was going on with that guy.
- [03:12]
Tyler Foggatt
Might be like a never Trump Republican or something.
- [03:15]
Sarah Larson
I don't know what. Yeah. And the goal is to get people to sell Tesla stock and their cars and to stop buying Teslas, of course, but also just to raise awareness of how angry people are and how much they want Elon to stop doing what he's doing with Doge and trying to dismantle the government.
- [03:39]
Tyler Foggatt
Last Wednesday on the political scene, we did a deep dive into Elon Musk's company, SpaceX. But it's Musk's other company, Tesla, that's the big flashpoint in American politics right now. More than 200 protests took place at Tesla dealerships across the country over the weekend. And Musk himself has become the lightning rod for left wing ier. New Yorker staff writer Sarah Larson has been covering the Tesla takedown movement. Today she's here with me to explain why Tesla has become target number one for the Trump resistance, whether it should be a target at all, and whether it's now more effective to protest Musk than Trump. You're listening to the Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt and I'm a senior editor at the New Yorker. So, as you mentioned, I mean, a lot of these protests are kind of more generally anti elon Musk, but there is this whole element of boycotting Tesla and trying to get people to sell Tesla stock. I guess the question is if it's worth it or like what the general, like why they think that Tesla is the thing worth going after and kind of organizing around as opposed to protesting a SpaceX launch site or the X headquarters or something. Like, why Tesla? Is it just because there are so many locations, or is it because it's the main thing that is driving Musk's kind of wealth and reputation?
- [05:01]
Sarah Larson
You know, there are Tesla dealerships all over the country, all over the world, and people own the cars and it's a, it's a more tangible connection to Elon Musk. There isn't a SpaceX launch site in every town.
- [05:15]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, thank goodness for that. They're loud.
- [05:19]
Sarah Larson
Yeah. Of people own these cars. A lot of people are conflicted about it. I mean, the whole situation is weird. I think weirder than protesting the electric car dealerships is the fact that he created this company and then became what he became. This whole situation is weird on a million levels, but I don't think it's that weird to protest Elon Musk. And this just seems like an obvious place to do it. It is ironic and somewhat painful. One thing I've been wondering, and I need to look into this more, is whether people on the right have started buying Teslas to own the libs. That seems like a bridge too far for a lot of people. But maybe cybertrucks. I'm not sure.
- [06:02]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, I don't know. All the cybertrucks recently got recalled.
- [06:05]
Sarah Larson
Yeah, there have been a lot of.
- [06:06]
Tyler Foggatt
Recalls because they're, like, falling apart.
- [06:09]
Sarah Larson
And I do also like the movement of people putting just other random logos on their Teslas, like a Toyota or a Mazda or.
- [06:19]
Tyler Foggatt
Or just like a Kamala sticker just to show that this was a car that was purchased a while back. Yeah, right.
- [06:24]
Sarah Larson
Oops. Yeah.
- [06:26]
Tyler Foggatt
Can you tell me more about the interactions that you had with individual protesters? I mean, you recently wrote a piece about your experience at this protest for the New Yorker, and I found it so interesting, and maybe this is indicative of New York, that there were so many just sort of like, interesting, cool, important people who were at this demonstration who have lawyers and, you know, former government workers, and then you also just have, like, tourists. But are there any interactions you had that kind of stood out to you?
- [06:55]
Sarah Larson
I mean, I get depressed about politics often in the last decade plus, and I do a fair amount of writing about political events of various kinds all over the country. And it always amazes me how encouraged I tend to be after when I just talk to regular voters, regular citizens, I tend to come away encouraged rather than more discouraged. And this was definitely an instance of that. I was really moved almost to tears by everyone who told me why they were there and what they were doing. You know, there was a woman who was a lawyer for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau who was telling me what Doge had been doing and how, you know, she hasn't been working since February, and she's been going to protests and hoping that her agency will be able to be saved. There was a constitutional law professor, There was another law professor. There were two really great young guys who had just graduated from college. You know, one was comparing the situation here to the situation in Turkey. He was part Turkish, the other was a political science major who said that everything he had just learned, all the rules he had just learned about, had gone out the window, including how countries should treat one another. And then people who have relatives with disabilities or have disabilities themselves are terrified about what will happen with Medicare and Medicaid. People are affected in multiple ways, on an individual level and in their families by everything that Doge is doing. And they were all really articulate and really, really sympathetic and engaging. It was just like each new person I talked to was more interesting than the last. And they were connecting with one another, which was really cool too.
- [08:41]
Tyler Foggatt
What did people at the protests seem most upset about in terms of Musk's recent actions? Like, did you find that they were most often talking about Doge and the idea of this unelected billionaire kind of coming in and making critical decisions about the federal workforce? Was it about getting involved in the Wisconsin State Supreme Court race? Was it SpaceX and Tesla and the actual companies that he owns? Or was it just like all over the place?
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Sarah Larson
It was mostly, I would say, Doge and the cuts that Doge is making, not just to jobs, but to what the government agencies do, including Medicare and Medicaid and the threats that are being made to those agencies and just all the things that government does to help people. A really moving and significant part of this particular protest was that act up, the 38 year old AIDS activism group, marched from the AIDS memorial to this site and did a die in where everyone was holding tombstone signs and each tombstone sign had a cause of death that everything that Musk is doing would affect. So people dying in a hurricane because there was no warning from the NOAA or people dying from aids, which will spread without the infrastructure that helps prevent and treat it. Abortion related deaths, all kinds of things. And ACT UP has always been so effective at combining creativity and, you know, visual art and demonstrating in a way that's very vivid. One, you know, there's the. The old classic silence equals death logo that's kind of the symbol of ACT up. And there was a silence equals death sign that had a Tesla symbol instead of an equal sign. So there was a lot of stuff like that. And I was really struck by how what Doge is doing can actually physically harm people because of health care and so on.
- [10:43]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, I feel like that is something that often gets missed in the discourse about it. So we're going to take a quick break and when we come Back. I want to talk more about how the world has kind of turned against Tesla. More from the political scene from the New Yorker in just a moment.
- [11:03]
Sarah Larson
Katie.
- [11:05]
Katie Drummond
I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial Director.
- [11:08]
Sarah Larson
I'm Michael Colory, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.
- [11:12]
Tyler Foggatt
And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.
- [11:21]
Katie Drummond
At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of the biggest stories in tech.
- [11:31]
Sarah Larson
Right? So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you.
- [11:41]
Katie Drummond
Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.
- [11:57]
Tyler Foggatt
So, Sarah, you were saying that the protest you were at was peaceful and harmonious, but over the past few weeks we have seen an increase in anti Tesla acts of all kinds. I mean, everything from petty vandalism to more extreme incidents like the burning of a Tesla showroom and the burning of charging stations. The DOJ recently declared that acts of violence against Tesla would be considered domestic terrorism. Was this something that seemed to be on the protesters minds at the event on Saturday? How did they feel about this sort of declaration that they might be considered domestic terrorists if they go after Tesla dealerships in a more violent way?
- [12:35]
Sarah Larson
I didn't talk to anyone who had designs on harming Tesla dealerships in a physical sense. But you know, there was a banner that said save democracy, Harm a Tesla or something like that. And there are these, and I've seen this elsewhere too, where there are little images of Tesla's on fire, like a flaming cybertruck costume kind of thing. But that didn't seem to be the MO of this. I think by and large the protests are nonviolent and not about that at all. I mean, for one thing, that would be counterproductive and not helpful, but I did notice that on the news, certainly on Fox, but even on NBC and abc, when they're covering the Tesla takedown, they often have images of things on fire or those rare instances of actual property damage kind of stuff.
- [13:26]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, I feel like, if anything, they're leaning harder on some of the examples that we've seen kind of like around the world. Like Last May, around 800 German protesters attempted to storm a Tesla factory near Berlin and interrupt production, which is, I think, a much more extreme form of protests than what we've been seeing in the States. And I guess I'm just curious, I mean, do you think that we might see the protest movement head in this direction or what is kind of the end game here basically?
- [13:52]
Sarah Larson
That's a great question. I mean, I assume that it would just be a sort of more sizable global presence and impact on Tesla stock. In protests, there are always a few people who kind of go over the line. I'm not predicting mass acts of violence against cars and car showrooms.
- [14:17]
Tyler Foggatt
You mentioned Tesla stock and it is kind of plummeting right now. I mean, it's part of the kind of justification for protesting Musk or Tesla specifically, which is that you can actually see some of the damage that's being done by the demonstrations as opposed to it being a more symbolic thing.
- [14:34]
Sarah Larson
Right. I don't remember talking to anyone about what was actually happening with the stock. But you did just remind me that I saw that Elon Musk tweeted on X. He posted X. I guess. Yeah, it's something about, I think what he thought was kind of a sick burn about the Tesla takedown, which was that he'd seen video of it and that all he could tell was that these people needed jobs or something or like they were losers who didn't have jobs.
- [15:00]
Tyler Foggatt
It was on a Saturday. And also it seems like you talked to a lot of people who had lost their jobs because of Doge.
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Sarah Larson
Right, right. And he's firing everyone. And so of course then all the replies to that were just people saying I hate you or you know, talking about all the bad things he's doing. And then there was a paid ad also under that, that was a link to a piece about how Tesla stock is tanking and how Tesla a self own. Yeah, so you know that coveted thing that the X ad, but it's for how terrible your company is. So.
- [15:35]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, I think I mentioned this to you, but I was in Columbus, Ohio this weekend visiting some family and we were staying at a hotel that was right next to a Tesla showroom and there was a massive demonstration happening and I actually went with my 7 year old sister and she was asking me what the protest was about because the signs were kind of all over the place. Like there was one that said deport Musk. And so, you know, if you were just to see that, you would think that it was kind of a protest against like the mass deportations, you know, and just like Trump's general kind of like immigration strategy. And then there was a sign that.
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Lauren Good
Said, love is love, and it had a picture of Trump and Musk kissing. And so I took that at least to be a reference to the way in which LGBTQ rights are under threat right now.
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Tyler Foggatt
But sort of my main takeaway was.
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Lauren Good
That this protest, and kind of the protest movement in general, is sort of using Musk as a stand in for everything that is maddening the left right now.
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Tyler Foggatt
And I guess, like, do you. Do you think that that's a winning strategy?
- [16:32]
Lauren Good
Because I feel like some of these things, like, you know, we talk about LGBTQ rights or even abortion protections, and that, to me, those two things at least feel like something that is kind of totally, you know, separate from anything that Musk can do.
- [16:45]
Sarah Larson
Right. Yeah. I mean, that makes me think of another great comment somebody made when I was there this weekend. He was saying that protests are a first step and that the left is kind of reeling and just trying to get their feet under them and figure out what to do next. And I don't know exactly what the protests will do in themselves, but I think it gives people hope and connects people to one another. And, of course, people are doing other things besides protesting that are tandem tangible politically and trying to elect reasonable people in other races and so on. But I think while the next steps are figured out, this is a perfectly fine way to vent frustration and make feelings known and protest.
- [17:34]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, no, I would agree with that. I mean, I saw the poll that sort of went out to a bunch.
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Lauren Good
Of voters, and it was asking if they agreed with the efforts of the Department of Governmental Efficiency as it tries to reduce the federal workforce of. People said, yes, I'm into it. And then the same question was sent out, except it was like, are you in favor of Elon Musk's Department of Governmental Efficiency? And all of a sudden, you start to see the numbers go way down. And it was like, just the mention of Elon Musk turn this into a polarizing thing that people were a lot more reluctant to support. And so it does seem interesting to me that, like, Musk has become sort of like a rallying cry for the left during a time when Democrats are really just trying to figure out, like, what they can possibly do to fight back right now. So there is, I think, something to.
- [18:23]
Sarah Larson
That, and I'm sure that Trump doesn't mind that people are focusing their ire on Musk rather than on him.
- [18:32]
Tyler Foggatt
I want to talk to you more about the state of the Trump resistance, but we're going to take another quick break. You'll hear more of the political scene from the New Yorker in just a moment.
- [18:49]
David Remnick
Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Charlamagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [19:26]
Tyler Foggatt
So we've done a few episodes on this podcast about the state of the resistance, or lack thereof, under Trump 2.0. And I feel like the consensus has been that in comparison to what we saw at the start of the first Trump administration, it's really been, you know, not as present. We just didn't see like the huge protests that we saw back in 2017. But one of the things that I do find striking about your piece and your description of the Tesla takedown movement is that it feels like one of the more visible forms of activism that we have seen since Trump took office. And I'm wondering if you have theories as to why this movement in particular has been so effective.
- [20:04]
Sarah Larson
I think in part it's because there's a new, fresh target, it's a new villain and a worthy one. I think that, you know, the left has gone through a lot with Donald Trump in the last decade and doesn't always necessarily know what the most effective way to protest Trump himself and MAGA will be. It is really hard to convince anyone. I feel like protesting Trump can just kind of feed his ego, but Musk is a different, a clear target and a tangible target who's doing a new set of terrible things and happens to have these car dealerships all over the country that are easy to assemble at. And it's easier to have a sort of clear, specific message and feel fired up in a way that might actually do something. Also, Trump and Musk both have a real need to be liked. And Musk, it's like it hurts his feelings when you insult Tesla, yet he doesn't mind waving his chainsaw around and everything. But if you say anything bad about Tesla, he calls you a creep and a jerk. And so it's true.
- [21:13]
Tyler Foggatt
It does seem like Trump seems to thrive in conflict, whereas conflict makes Musk more actively uncomfortable, especially if it's Tesla related conflict. I mean, I think you can even make the argument. Isn't one of the reasons why Musk kind of defected from the Democrats in the first place is that Biden was having some kind of like yes E vehicle like yeah, EV conference and he didn't invite Musk. And so Musk got left out as like the owner of the premier American EV company. And that was sort of the beginning of the end. It is funny that Tesla is like the thing that he gets the most riled up about and that we see him get riled up and that is way better than. Yeah. In some ways the kind of response that we see from Trump when, you know, people are trying to use activism against him.
- [21:56]
Sarah Larson
Yeah.
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Tyler Foggatt
Although I do think that there's. On one hand it's like Musk is, you know, a new kind of fresh, clear target. On the other hand, it seems like there is something that is maybe sort of lost when the most high profile activism of the Trump era isn't even directly focused on Trump himself.
- [22:14]
Sarah Larson
Yeah.
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Tyler Foggatt
Do you agree with that or do you think that honestly, Musk and Trump are so interconnected at this point that protesting one is the same as protesting the other?
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Sarah Larson
I think the latter. I mean, at the protest I saw there was also a lot of anti Trump protest. But I just, I feel, and I don't know if this is right or not, but I just think that. But it's not exactly clear how to protest Trump at this point or what will be effective. And it's easy enough to protest them both at the same time. It's certainly a unified bunch of problems. But it just seems like protesting Elon right now might be more effective and make more of an impact.
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Tyler Foggatt
It seems like maybe we kind of have a new Trump who isn't so quick to fire people or cut ties with them when they him off. I mean, I feel like that was kind of one of the takeaways of the. The whole Signalgate episode last week. The fact that he hasn't gotten rid of, you know, Michael Waltz or Pete Hegseth or any of these guys who were part of that. Whereas I feel like in the past he would have just axed some of the people. I feel like there's been a lot.
- [23:19]
Lauren Good
Of talk about like, well, Musk and Trump, like they both have such big egos and like there's no way that Trump is going to keep Musk around for that long or Musk is just gonna get bored doing doge cuz he has all this other stuff and this isn't a long term relationship. And maybe that's wrong. Maybe they actually are kind of like soulmates or something.
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Tyler Foggatt
I've started, I've increasingly started to believe that that is the case. That they're just two weird guys who really vibe and, you know, best friends.
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Sarah Larson
For life and they both need a friend. I was thinking about that. I mean, they both are sort of really alienated and yet they want approval. They get it from each other.
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Tyler Foggatt
Also, now that the kids are involved too. Like, I'm sure you saw that video of Trump hanging out with little X and like, I think even holding his hand as they got on plane together. Like, there was a tweet that was like, I can't believe that Elon Musk has turned Trump into a single hard working father. Like, it was kind of like that. So now that I'm. He has a relationship with the kids too, I'm like, gosh, this might be, this might just be it. But I do wonder if Musk and Trump were to have a falling out and Trump were to say, hey, this Musk, I hate him. He's not running Doge anymore. What that would mean for the left, like, is, I guess in one way that would be a victory because a lot of what the Tesla takedown movement is calling for is the removal of the, this unelected billionaire from such a huge position of power. But on the other hand, if so much of organizing is focused on Musk and all the bad things that he's doing, what happens if he is booted out of politics by Trump, which could happen like today, you know, could happen at any moment.
- [24:48]
Sarah Larson
One piece of that I don't quite get is, you know, Trump needs Elon's money. I mean, Elon is still throwing his money around willy nilly, and I don't think Trump would want that to stop.
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Tyler Foggatt
Yeah.
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Sarah Larson
And if he did get booted out of government, I think it would actually be, you know, kind of a net good. But who knows? I mean, yeah, it seems like it can't last forever because inevitably these egos are going to clash. But I think it would hurt both of them personally.
- [25:19]
Tyler Foggatt
So, I mean, it is this interesting question of how do you actually cause pain to a billionaire?
- [25:24]
Sarah Larson
Yeah.
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Tyler Foggatt
And it seems like this is the most effective route that people have right now. But yeah, it's like, how do you actually. Yeah. How do you get at this person who, you know, feels kind of untouchable?
- [25:36]
Sarah Larson
Right. I think this is as reasonable a means as any, honestly. One thing. Another thing I keep thinking about with Doge and Elon and his chainsaw and everything is, remember Rick Perry years ago, when Rick Perry was running around saying he wanted to get rid of all these government agencies, including the Department of Energy. And then he was made the head of the Department of Energy. And he got there and he was like, whoa, this controls the nuclear stockpile. I didn't realize that we need this. And Elon, I feel like, is going around saying, what's this? What's this? And just yanking all these plugs out of the wall or something and then realizing that these things have powered the entire system. They do do things. He just doesn't really understand what they are. Just chaos will ensue, I guess.
- [26:29]
Tyler Foggatt
My. My final question for you after going to a protest over the weekend and talking to the people involved in this movement and being, you know, kind of touched by it, as you were saying, do you agree that liberals who own Teslas should get rid of their Teslas or sell their Tesla stock? Like, do you think that that is the right thing for someone to do in this moment, or is it still kind of justifiable to be, you know, a Democrat who owns a Tesla and is like, hey, it's good for the environment. It's also a pretty sleek car. Everything's computer.
- [27:00]
Sarah Larson
Everything's computer.
- [27:02]
Tyler Foggatt
As Trump famously said when he entered a Tesla. I mean, what do you think? Like, should. Should we all sell our Teslas? I say, as someone who doesn't own a car, let alone a Tesla.
- [27:10]
Sarah Larson
Yeah, neither do I. Yeah. I. I don't know. I mean, I sort of feel for those people. I do feel for them. We've had signs for quite a while that Elon Musk is an objectionable character, but obviously a lot of people who bought Teslas just wanted an electric car and did it for the right reasons. And I don't necessarily begrudge them. I don't know who's even buying Teslas now. Who are those people? I don't know. I don't know. We're all doing the best we can, I hope.
- [27:45]
Tyler Foggatt
Well, thank you so much, Sarah.
- [27:47]
Sarah Larson
Thank you.
- [27:50]
Tyler Foggatt
Sarah Larson is a staff writer at the New Yorker. You can read her latest piece, Fighting Elon Musk, one Tesla dealership at a time@newyorker.com this has been the political scene from the New Yorker. I'm Tyler Foggatt. This episode was produced by Sam Egan, with mixing by Mike Kutchman and engineering by Pran Vandy. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Chris Bannon is Conde Nass head of Global Audio. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Enjoy your week and see you next Wednesday.
- [28:28]
Katie Drummond
What the hell is going on right now? And why is it happening like this? At Wired, we're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis. And maybe you are, too. I'm Katie Drummond, the global editorial director of Wired, and I'm hosting our new podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll sit down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.
- [28:55]
Sarah Larson
I want a shark that.
- [28:56]
Katie Drummond
That eats the Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid. So in a lot of ways, I.
- [29:02]
Sarah Larson
Try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online.
- [29:08]
Katie Drummond
To the best of my ability, every week we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times, meaning and context. True or false? You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me, one day, at some point as of yet undefined in the future, you will die. False.
- [29:27]
Sarah Larson
Tell me more.
- [29:28]
Katie Drummond
Listen to the Big Interview right now, in the same place you find WIRED's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [29:40]
Tyler Foggatt
From.
- [29:40]
Sarah Larson
PRX.