Podcast Summary: "How to Make Voting More Democratic"

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Air Date: December 2, 2016
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Jeffrey Toobin

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the ongoing debate about the democratic validity of the U.S. Electoral College, the aftermath of the 2016 presidential election, and broader issues affecting voting rights in America. Dorothy Wickenden and legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin unpack the Electoral College's rationale and contemporary relevance, recount the 2000 and 2016 post-election controversies, discuss Russian interference and the impact of the Supreme Court’s gutting of the Voting Rights Act, and reflect on redistricting and the future of American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Electoral College: History and Critique

• Origin and Purpose:

  • The Electoral College was established primarily to balance state and federal power during the founding of the United States.
  • It’s a product of the states' reluctance to cede authority to a central government.
  • Toobin observes the undemocratic nature of the Senate paralleling the Electoral College (e.g., "Wyoming, which has 500,000 people, has the same number of senators as California, which has...more than 20 million." [02:52 – Toobin])

• Current Viewpoints:

  • Al Gore, who once supported the Electoral College despite his 2000 loss, has changed his mind, stating we should move to a popular vote to stimulate public participation ([01:42]).
    • Quote: "I think the balance has shifted...and I think that we should go to a popular vote." – Al Gore (quoted by Toobin, [01:42])
  • Toobin agrees, calling the system “crazy” and highlighting how presidential campaigns ignore most of the country:
    • Quote: "If you live in Houston, you never see a presidential candidate. If you live in Los Angeles or New York or Chicago, they only come to these cities to fundraise." ([04:26 – Toobin])

• Chances for Change:

  • Given today’s polarization, particularly between urban and rural regions, any substantial Electoral College reform is “essentially nonexistent.” ([03:30 – Toobin])

2. The 2000 and 2016 Recounts: What’s Different?

• Florida 2000:

  • Legitimate recount due to razor-thin margins and questionable ballots ([06:06 – Toobin]).
  • "500 votes can actually shift in a recount, especially in a state as big as Florida." ([06:17 – Toobin])

• 2016 Recounts:

  • Current recounts in Wisconsin and other states are considered a "waste of time" due to large margins—no likelihood of changing results ([06:17 – Toobin]).
  • Toobin characterizes Jill Stein’s recount push as a "grifting operation" and points out that her Green Party candidacy may have been decisive in Trump’s victory in key states ([07:17 – Toobin]).

• Comparison with Trump’s Claims:

  • Both Trump’s and Stein’s claims of vote-rigging are unsubstantiated.
    • Quote: “It is certainly the same kind of claim and it has the same kind of absence of evidence to support it.” ([08:03 – Toobin])

3. Russian Interference and Democratic Insecurity

• Campaign Influence:
  • There is significant concern and confusion over Russian cyberattacks, notably the hacking of John Podesta’s email, but no direct evidence the election results themselves were hacked.
  • The Obama administration hesitated in responding to Russian hacking, possibly to avoid appearing partisan ([10:46 – Toobin]).
    • Quote: "This is a foreign power trying to determine the outcome of [a] presidential election and Obama just sat there and did nothing. It is a bizarre thing." ([10:46 – Toobin])

4. The Supreme Court and Voting Rights

• Shelby County v. Holder (2013):

  • The Supreme Court decision "gutted" Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, removing federal oversight for changes to voting laws in certain states.
  • Immediately, states like North Carolina, Texas, and Wisconsin enacted stricter voter ID laws ([11:47 – Toobin]).

• Consequences in 2016:

  • Notable drop in African American turnout, especially in cities like Milwaukee—43,000 fewer votes for Clinton than Obama in 2012 ([13:07 – Toobin]).
  • Toobin cautions it’s hard to separate lower enthusiasm for Clinton from increased legal barriers:
    • Quote: "It is very difficult to count uncast votes in the first place. And it's also difficult to pinpoint the precise reasons why voting went down." ([13:40 – Toobin])

5. Jeff Sessions and the Future of Voting Enforcement

• Sessions’ Record:
  • Sessions, Trump’s nominee for Attorney General, previously used the Voting Rights Act to prosecute Black activists for fraud—widely seen as harassment—and was blocked from a judgeship over racial concerns ([14:08 – Toobin]).
  • Likely to be confirmed under current Senate rules ([15:57 – Toobin]).

6. Redistricting & Democratic Prospects

• Democratic Initiatives:

  • Eric Holder and Barack Obama have created a national redistricting committee to push for fairer district maps ([16:19 – Wickenden]).
  • Toobin notes the increasing sophistication of both parties but describes geographic polarization as a challenge: “People now live with their political bedfellows to a greater extent than they used to.” ([16:45 – Toobin])

• Historical Perspective:

  • Toobin reminds listeners of political cycles and cautions against thinking current adversity is permanent:
    • Quote: "Things change. They really do change…It's not the end of the world. And history didn't stop today. And Donald Trump is not going to just be able to control the federal government...the way he did the Apprentice. You know, things are going to change." ([17:45 – Toobin])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Al Gore on Popular Vote:
  "I think the balance has shifted...and I think that we should go to a popular vote." ([01:42])

• Jeffrey Toobin on Swing States:
  "If you live in Houston, you never see a presidential candidate. If you live in Los Angeles or New York or Chicago, they only come to these cities to fundraise." ([04:26])

• Toobin on Jill Stein’s Recount Efforts:
  "Basically, this is a grifting operation by Jill Stein." ([07:17])

• On Difficulty of Reform:
  "With the polarization...the chances for any change [to the Electoral College] are essentially nonexistent." ([03:30])

• On Voter Suppression Post-VRA:
  "60,000 fewer votes were cast for Hillary Clinton. I'm sorry, 60,000 fewer African American votes. And that means 43,000 fewer votes for Clinton than Obama got just in Milwaukee in a state that she won." ([13:07])

• On Political Cycles:
  "Things change. They really do change…It's not the end of the world. And history didn't stop today." ([17:45])

Timestamps for Major Topics

• [01:16] – Episode introduction, Electoral College debate, Al Gore’s change of opinion
• [02:52] – Rationale behind the Electoral College and Senate composition
• [04:26] – Campaigns focusing on a handful of states; the realities of the Electoral College
• [06:06] – Florida 2000 recount details
• [06:17] – 2016 recount context and Jill Stein's motivations
• [08:03] – Vote-rigging narratives: Stein vs. Trump
• [09:55] – Russian hacking: campaign impact and unsubstantiated claims of election hacking
• [11:47] – Effects of the Shelby County (2013) decision on voting rights
• [14:08] – Jeff Sessions’ history with voting rights enforcement
• [16:19] – National redistricting efforts and the sociological shift in political geography
• [17:45] – Closing thoughts on political change and cycles

Conclusion

In this wide-ranging discussion, Wickenden and Toobin critically examine America’s democratic structures, the barriers to meaningful reform, the battled-over mechanics of voting, and the shifting sands of political power. While the episode diagnoses daunting challenges—from entrenched electoral mechanics to voter suppression and partisan gerrymandering—it also emphasizes historical perspective and the potential for change with civic engagement and strategic action.

Listeners interested in the legal, historical, and practical dimensions of American democracy will find this episode an incisive, candid exploration of what it takes to make voting more truly democratic.