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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
How Waco Became a Right-Wing Rallying Cry
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How Waco Became a Right-Wing Rallying Cry
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:16]
B
You're listening to the Political Scene, a show about current events and the political forces driving them. I'm Tyler Foggit and I'm a senior editor at the New Looker. This spring marks the 30th anniversary of the siege on Waco, Texas, a 51 day standoff between Branch Davidians and federal agents which resulted in dozens of deaths. On March 25, Trump held his first major campaign rally in Waco.
- [01:39]
C
So they're not coming after me, they're coming after you. And I'm just standing in their way. And I'm going to be standing in their way for a long time.
- [01:46]
B
Before the event, Trump's niece Mary tweeted, it's a ploy to remind his cult of the infamous Waco siege of 1993, where an anti government cult battled the FBI. Scores of people died. He wants the same violent chaos to rescue him from justice. The history of the Waco siege has been reduced to simple political narratives. But the reality is incredibly complicated. Weaving arguments about gun rights with fears of an increasingly militarized police, my colleague Rachel Munro has written a Piece about the siege and about the mythology that it spawned. Hi, Rachel. Thanks so much for being here today.
- [02:18]
D
Thank you for having me.
- [02:20]
B
So this spring marks the 30th anniversary of the Waco siege.
- [02:24]
D
And.
- [02:24]
B
And before we get into the details of everything that happened there, I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about the significance of Waco today and how the event has sort of transformed in the modern political imagination.
- [02:36]
D
Sure. I mean, it's become one of those events that can just be evoked by one word. Right. Waco. The people who evoke Waco most often tend to think of it as a religious group that was, you know, just wanted to be left alone, was beset by the forces of the government and attacked when they were just sort of God fearing rural people, you know, who just wanted to practice their religion and shoot their guns, maybe from the other side. It's, as Mary Trump kind of pointed to in that tweet, an example of the kind of initiating force that activated the militia movement that was already kind of latent and inspired a lot of anti government sentiment and also actions. Right. Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the in Oklahoma City is, you know, directly tied to Waco.
- [03:29]
B
What actually happened 30 years ago? I mean, tell us about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians and what the scene was there before the siege took place.
- [03:36]
D
Sure. Well, the Branch Davidians went by various different names, but they were a group, kind of splinter group off the Seventh Day Adventist Church, a sort of more rigorous version of that religious sect. And they had existed in this kind of area outside Waco, maybe 20 miles outside of Waco, for decades with various different leaders and were well known to local law enforcement. But they were a relatively small group, maybe maxing out around 150 people living there. It wasn't until David Koresh moves in and becomes the leader in the 1980s, 1990s, that law enforcement starts to pay a little bit more attention to what's going on there. You also have pretty recently the Jonestown suicide. So there's a lot of anxiety around these groups.
- [04:32]
B
What were those suicides?
- [04:33]
D
So that's a church that was based in California and then moved to Guyana under Reverend Jim Jones. That very much like what ended up happening with the Branch Davidians. They start being investigated by local media. Local law enforcement starts getting interested. This spawns this feeling of paranoia among the leader, and they're stockpiling weapons. And in Jonestown, that ended with hundreds of members of the group committing suicide after killing a congressman and other people who had come to kind of investigate. So you can imagine after those events, there was like a great anxiety about religious groups, Particularly gun wielding gun, communal living religious groups. You know, what are they up to, particularly when they're stockpiling weapons, when they.
- [05:25]
B
Have a lot of children around too, right?
- [05:26]
D
Yeah, exactly. So the kind of dual events that bring the branch davidians into kind of more of a spotlight, and what spurs the investigations are both the guns and these allegations of child abuse. The group starts to raise money, starts selling guns at gun shows around Texas. This was and still is an incredibly lucrative way to make money in Texas. There were reports that they were illegally converting semiautomatic weapons into automatic weapons. At the same time, some of the defectors from the group are calling local and national law enforcement and talking about some of the abuse of children that was happening, Both corporal punishment and the fact that David koresh was, quote, unquote, marrying some of the daughters of his followers, Girls as young as 12.
- [06:18]
B
How did this turn into a 51 day siege?
- [06:23]
D
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the cynical explanations which you hear even from people within law enforcement Is that the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, the atf, the agency that was responsible for looking into their weapons allegations. There were congressional budget hearings coming up. They were looking for something to kind of show what they did in a positive light.
- [06:44]
B
They were not successful.
- [06:46]
D
Did not work out as planned. They planned a raid on the compound with the idea that, you know, we're not going to be able to arrest David Koresh. He doesn't leave the compound. That wasn't true. But, you know, this is going to be the thought.
- [06:57]
B
He went on a run every day or something like that.
- [06:59]
D
He went on a run. I mean, I remember I met a woman who was from waco, and she was. He would come into the cafe and get coffee. Like, they could have just arrested him here.
- [07:07]
B
But is that just not as high profile to take him from the coffee shop?
- [07:10]
D
Well, you know, the question is it bad intelligence? Was it sort of an intentional desire to sort of do something splashier and more militaristic? You know, I think that's something that's still debated to this day. But the plan ended up being, you know, we're gonna surround this compound with a bunch of agents and call for them to come out. The idea, I think, going into it was that, you know, these are religious folk. We know they have guns, but they had some bad intelligence. You know, the guns are all locked up. The women don't shoot guns. Neither of those things were true. The female Branch Davidians were like part of the gun training that they had done. Everybody had a gun in their room. And so pretty soon after the Branch Davidian building is surrounded and they call for David Koresh to come out, the shooting begins. And it's like a matter of great debate who started shooting first. I don't think that there's any consensus on that at all. But what ends up happening is just like a multi hour gun battle that leaves four federal agents and half a dozen Branch Davidians dead.
- [08:09]
B
Why did then the multi hour gun battle turn into an event that spanned several weeks? I mean, at that point, did Koresh just kind of lock himself down and they were just trying to get him out?
- [08:19]
D
Yeah, exactly. I mean, to me, reading back over the events of those days and watching.
- [08:25]
B
Videos, 51 days, it's like, what takes 51 days these days?
- [08:30]
D
Well, I think it's. You have like, both sides feel like this is a conflict that they can't lose and they can't back down from, and both sides feel like they are backed into a corner in a way. And obviously that's like much more literally true of the Branch Davidians who are, you know, in a building surrounded by close to a thousand members of law enforcement and at a certain point, like tanks.
- [08:50]
B
And was it just the ATF at that point or. I know the FBI gets involved.
- [08:53]
D
Yeah, atf, FBI, National Guard, Texas State troopers. But the ATF was the ones initially leading the charge. This thing that was supposed to be a spectacle of ATF competence and success ends up being exactly the opposite. And so there's a real sense that we can't just walk away from this. These people need to be held accountable for killing federal agents. And then at the same time, you have the Branch Davidians who subscribed to a theology where they had been for years thinking, you know, imagining that the end of days was coming at any moment and that it was going to be brought, you know, by the corrupt forces of the outside world. And so for them, you know, this is exactly what they had been expecting and preparing for.
- [09:41]
B
So what happened on April 19, 1993, which was the 51st day?
- [09:46]
D
Well, I think maybe before that, it's worth Talking about those 51 days and some of the tensions that were kind of arising within the various federal forces that came, you know, that were supposed to ideally, like, have a. Bring this to like, a peaceful end. Right. So you have kind of emerging within the FBI, which takes over command of the situation, these sort of warring factions. You have on the one Side the negotiators who are spending like hours a day talking to David Koresh and you know, his right hand man. And they end up getting like a number of people, you know, a couple dozen people leave the compound. You know, David Koresh agrees to let, you know, some elderly people out, some children out, some other people who want to leave. And so they're kind of trying to build this rapport. And then at the same time, you have the kind of more tactical side of the operation. This sort of SWAT team, hostage rescue team, part of the FBI, which is trained to kind of end things quickly and tactically and demonstrate force. And, you know, all this talking is just a stalling tactic.
- [10:56]
B
And do you think these kinds of divisions sort of exist within law enforcement today? Because I've just been thinking about how the image of the atf, it's almost this SWAT team type situation. On one hand, it does conjure images of contemporary law enforcement looking at the team that went in after the recent shooting in Nashville. But then it also really clashes with what we saw in Uvalde. And I believe with Uvalde was a border patrol person who finally went in. And I feel like the average person and just kind of thinks of law enforcement as like this giant, you know, mass of people who all kind of operate the same way, but it actually seems like they have these incredibly different tactics and strategies and just ways of thinking about how to handle violence.
- [11:40]
D
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because in the 80s 90s is when you see the rise and the spread of these kinds of tactical teams in policing, you know, we're talking about like federal policing now, but also in cities and states and even rural areas start to form their tactical teams, SWAT teams, you know, special operations teams, this kind of almost like military style forces within the police force. And I think you could definitely argue that if you're trained to like go in and resolve something quickly with force, that's the lens through which you're gonna view a situation. And so we see that how that goes wrong in so many situations. You know, with no knock raids or these teams kind of bursting in as if the citizens that they're policing our military enemies instead of the people they're supposed to serve. And so I think you do see like some of the critique that's happening here is that these hostage rescue teams are doing what they're trained to do, which is like resolve something quickly.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah. Peaceful resolution versus quick resolution. Although it seems like in this case it was neither peaceful nor Quick at 51 days.
- [12:46]
D
Right, exactly.
- [12:47]
B
So what ended up happening in Waco after the 51 day standoff essentially within.
- [12:52]
D
The Branch Davidian compound? David Koresh has sort of agreed to emerge once he finishes writing his sort of treatise on this part of the book of Revelations that was very important to him. And he's like, okay, I had just a few more days of writing, and then, you know, once I write it, I'll come out now. He had promised to emerge previously and reneged on it. So, you know, would he have done that? Completely unclear. For the survivors, you know, that have said that that was their assumption that they would eventually, when it was time, they were gonna give themselves up peacefully. Instead, the tactical side ends up kind of winning the argument. They make a plan to ram the building with tanks and to create holes and then pump tear gas into those holes. And the idea is, we're going to make it so unpleasant in this building that everybody's going to emerge and give themselves up. There were, like, a few things they didn't count on. The building was like, super flimsy. So it starts to collapse. The people who remained in the building, like dozens of people, were sincere in their religious faith and saw emerging from the building, you know, giving themselves up as, like, giving up on their faith also. They were like in great fear. Some of the survivors have said, like, they thought if they left, they were going to get shot. You know, they're surrounded by tanks and snipers. Nine people end up leaving, but dozens more do not. And then around noon, the building catches on fire. And within the next hour, pretty much everybody left in the building dies, including David Koresh, either by committing suicide, killed when the building collapses, or dying in the fire.
- [14:32]
B
What was like, the immediate aftermath of this in terms of, you know, as you said earlier, like, Waco has become this. This parable of, you know, like government overreach and whatnot. But at the time, I mean, were people just sort of like, oh, yeah, these Branch Davidians were crazy or, you know, like, what kind of. Was the immediate reaction?
- [14:50]
D
Yeah, I think inspired in some ways by, you know, fear of Jim Jones and Jonestown and Charles Manson and these, you know, high profile, deadly cults that had been in the news in recent memory while the siege was happening. The general consensus was David Koresh's crazy. I think it was something. There was a Pew poll that said something like 70% of Americans approved of the FBI. You know, there was like, a lot of public support for what the government was doing in their approach. I think it was in the aftermath, you started to see that fall apart and public opinion really kind of swing in the opposite direction. I mean, you think about the assault on the compound and the fire that was all broadcast live. The era of, you know, 24 hour cable news was, like, relatively new at that point. And you have this being shown on multiple news networks. You know, the horror of it, I think, being broadcast, you know, over like a great amount of time, I think that really in some ways swayed people's opinion. The news began to sort of slowly trickle out. That really painted the FBI in a bad light, that they had misled Janet Reno, who was like the newly sworn in attorney general. She gets sworn in as the attorney general kind of midway through the siege, which is, you know, like she had been told that there was ongoing child abuse, you know, happening in the compound, which doesn't appear to be true. But that was.
- [16:15]
B
You know, I thought that the child abuse, for example, was just like an absolute thing that had happened. And I didn't realize that that was like something that was still kind of.
- [16:23]
D
Well.
- [16:24]
B
Or like the extent of the child abuse is in question.
- [16:25]
D
The abuse definitely happened, but it was like sort of. That was why they said, we need to go in now. Why? Yeah, like we can't wait. Partially because David Koresh is a liar and like, he probably won't come out. But the reason that they gave to Janet Reno was like, abuse is happening now, and we need to like, get in there and stop the abuse from happening. And there's no evidence that like, abuse was happening, you know, during this. During the 51 day siege, the FBI lied and then kind of covered up. The fact that they did use incendiary devices. Doesn't appear that those incendiary devices in any way contributed to the fire. But just the fact that this was something that they. They covered up, that they covered up, you know, just kind of fed this sense of paranoia and just, you know, that image of this building on fire, surrounded by tanks, and the thought of, you know, dozens of children dying inside that building, I think is. Was just sort of like viscerally horrific in a way that had lasting impact.
- [17:27]
B
We'll have more with Rachel Monroe in a moment.
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D
America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the global story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:06]
B
So over the past 30 years, who are the kinds of people or groups who have kind of seized on this event? You mentioned the Oklahoma City bombing earlier.
- [18:14]
D
Yeah. And Timothy McVeigh was like a person who a lot of people actually ended up like, during the 51 day siege would go to Waco, you know, hundreds to. I think at some points, like a couple thousand would just show up and sort of watch as a public spectacle. And one of those people was Timothy McVeigh, who is. There are photographs of him selling anti government bumper stickers. And two years later, on the anniversary of the fire is the day that he chooses to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City. Alex Jones, who was a teenager when the siege was happening, and he becomes obsessed with Waco. He, you know, goes on to be kind of a local radio talk show host. He gets actually fired from his job in Austin because he talks about Waco too much. He's like too obsessed with it, even though he was like, quite, quite popular. He founds Infowars, his website, after he gets fired, and then really kind of rises to public prominence again by taking on this plan to rebuild a church on the site of the original compound that burned down. And gets like a lot of national news for this. This is sort of the time that Alex Jones first becomes a national figure. And it's all because of Waco. And I mean, the thing that was interesting to me, looking back and at sort of how it was interpreted at the time, you see this way that things could have gone differently. Alex Jones made a documentary about Waco in the year 2000, I think it was. And this is the only time I've ever been like, wow, I agree with Alex Jones. He goes on at length about militarized police and how Waco is this example of what happens when you give police military tools and military tactics. He's talking about the phrase the thin blue line, you know, which is obviously like such a potent phrase now, but he's talking about it critically, right? He's like, this is like a scary. This is a scary thing that we're seeing emerge. During the siege, the people in Waco communicated with the outside world by like painting messages on bedsheets. And one of the messages that they put out the window said Rodney King. We understand. So this idea that there are many people who are at risk when you have law enforcement that's like becoming increasingly militarized and increasingly emboldened and has, you know, tanks and like, a wide mandate to enact violence on citizens. And so you almost see this, like, this potential for kind of like solidarity or critique or something. But that critique very quickly gets left behind. And the mythology that Alex Jones trades on in this situation and in many others is sort of this one of like telling his audience, you know, that you're a victim, you're in danger, kind of stoking this individual paranoia, and that kind of becomes the dominant takeaway.
- [21:15]
B
And do you think that's why so many right wing groups have sort of used this narrative? I mean, I've been. I've been wondering, like, is it just because the Branch Davidians also had, you know, guns and that was such a big part of the story? Cause, yeah, I mean, the Rodney King stuff, I mean, you do see a version of Waco that is actually, you know, more of like a left wing narrative almost.
- [21:33]
D
Yeah. Or just, you know, a place where like those.
- [21:35]
B
Or the two sides can meet.
- [21:36]
D
Yeah, exactly. Like those militarized police.
- [21:38]
B
It's too much.
- [21:39]
D
Right, right. Those, like, kind of political divisions as we understand them now, like, they could have taken a different shape. But yeah, I think it becomes, well, early on, like, the kind of immediate coverage and the immediate talk of Waco is much more about religious freedom. These people need to have religious freedom. And. And over the years, that's shifted much more to be. They're not talking about the First Amendment anymore, they're talking about the Second Amendment and that citizens have the right to have these guns and have these weapons. I mean, there's like a court case happening right now that's over this very similar technology, the tools to convert semiautomatic rifles into automatic rifles and what's legal to sell. We live in a world now where not just because of Waco, but I think Waco is in play when people who want more permissive gun laws or who want to remove what gun laws we do have very successfully argue that we need to have fewer restrictions on what guns people can own and who can carry them and where they can carry them. And then at the same time, those things become justifications for the police to have bigger and more powerful weapons. And so, you know, you just end up having kind of an arms race.
- [22:56]
B
I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the, like, the atf, you know, on the right, there have been a lot of politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene recently, as you wrote in your piece. You know, Matt Gaetz, who recently introduced a bill calling for the abolition of the atf. It seems like it's become this boogeyman on the right for, you know, the sort of like stripping of gun rights. But at the same time, if you look at, like, what the ATF is supposed to be doing, I mean, they're focused on violent criminal acts of terrorism, drug trafficking, gun trafficking, the kinds of things that Republicans are extremely concerned about, seemingly. And so, I mean, is this an issue that has sort of divided the right, or has the ATF become almost like a. Increasingly seen as like a left wing force over the years?
- [23:41]
D
ATF feels this sort of difficult position that they're in very acutely. And this existed at the time of the Waco operation too, that it's like, it's less funded and less respected. Respected and has fewer resources than a lot of the other federal law enforcement agencies. And that has been consistent throughout. I mean, Jeff Guinn wrote a book about Waco in which he has a really interesting anecdote about the ATF and how Reagan considered abolishing the ATF when he was president and was actually approached by an NRA lobbyist who was like, actually, we would prefer if you don't, because it's useful for us to have. He uses the phrase whipping boy. You know, that there's like having this agency to sort of divert attention and be the boogeyman in this way does end up being like. It serves this useful role. And you can see with Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, this symbol that they can use to kind of attach this sense of they're coming to take our guns, which is always like a sort of a infinitely useful political talking point, activating this sense of like, fear and sense of being embattled, you know, when actually the exact opposite is happening.
- [25:04]
B
And what was the. I think you describe it in your piece as a mini confrontation between a Marjorie Taylor Greene and the atf.
- [25:10]
D
Yeah, this was just a couple weeks ago that some agents come to enact like a completely customary routine inspection at a gun store in Georgia. And Marjorie Taylor Greene shows up and has a sort of parking lot press conference and then tweets a lot about it, sort of saying, you know, this is unjust. This is unprecedented. She made a big point that, like, a lot of the ATF agents who were involved were from blue states. You know, so this specter of federal agents as, you know, Joe Biden's shock troops or something, this is sort of like the lasting legacy of Waco. The kind of more interesting and complex critiques that could come out of it have kind of been sanded off or washed away. In a lot of cases. And this very politically useful idea of they're coming for your guns so you won't be able to defend your family is the thing that remains and that we're left with and that gets trotted out over and over again.
- [26:12]
B
So Trump recently had a rally in Waco, and his campaign spokesman said that the location was actually like, completely unrelated to the siege and that Waco was picked because, quote, it is centrally located in close to all four of Texas's biggest metropolitan areas. And I'm wondering, I mean, as someone who's not from Texas, when I hear Waco, I mean, as you said, I think of Waco, you know, I think of this event. But you are from Texas. And so, I mean, is that a thing like, you know, it's convenient, it's accessible, let's meet in the middle. And Waco, I mean, or, I mean, do you buy, I guess, this idea that this location could have been picked without, you know, the political resonance being factored into that?
- [26:50]
D
No, of course not. I mean, and particularly now, you know, the Trump's rally happened, you know, during this period, you know, of the 30th anniversary of the siege. I mean, but it's also, it is interesting that Waco is maybe best now known for both the Branch Davidians, but also Chip and Joanna Gaines, Magnolia, fixer, upper, you know, that stuff. And so it's. That's. I don't think those things are completely unrelated. I mean, not that Chip and Joanna Gaines are Branch Davidians, but it's a hyper religious city. Right. It's also Baylor, Baylor University. You know, he should have said he.
- [27:21]
B
Was having it near Baylor. I think most people in blue states just wouldn't even have realized.
- [27:25]
D
Right. They'd be like, oh, good basketball team. Yeah, but it's. Yeah, it's this city of a kind of like, entrenched religious defensiveness that is, you know, now all dressed up in shiplap and like, you know, beautiful cupcakes. And I think in some ways, like, there's some tension between, like, those two images of Waco that, that to me, really exemplify the kind of MAGA movement as it is now. It's not so much like the guy in a compound with an AR15. Right. It's like a blonde lady who goes to a megachurch and is running for school board and probably still has an AR15. The Branch Davidians, they were like a fringe group that wanted to be left alone. And what we're seeing now, I think more are these figures who are Drawing from Christian who self identify as Christian nationalists, who want to occupy positions of power and want sort of this control over school boards and city councils and all sorts of things. And so you can see both of those energies in that city today, I guess.
- [28:36]
B
The Texas Tribune recently talked to the longtime Branch Davidian pastor, Charles Pace about the Trump rally.
- [28:42]
D
And.
- [28:43]
B
And Pace himself said that he thought that Trump was in Waco for a bigger reason.
- [28:47]
C
He's making a statement, I believe, by coming to these stomping grounds where the government, the FBI, laid siege on these. This community, just like they laid siege on Mar a Lago and went in and took his stuff. That's what they wanted to do here. They wanted to come in and take the guns and everything.
- [29:08]
D
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because Pace has, like, a sort of a feud going on with David Koresh's followers and the survivors of the standoff. And he has, you know, apparently, if you go to the church that Alex Jones built where, you know, Pace is the pastor, you can buy all sorts of MAGA gear and also, you know, David Koresh gear. But some of the actual survivors, like, feel really annoyed and I think in some cases, like, offended by.
- [29:35]
B
Yeah. The magification of Koresh and Waco. I mean, that just seems an endless tragedy.
- [29:40]
D
Right, Exactly. And so it's interesting to read some of their takes on it and how that has. How they have been crowded out a little bit because they don't quite neatly fit into this narrative of victimization. But again, you know, this idea that the mythology of Waco has sort of overtaken the reality of it, even when we have some of those survivors, you know, still. Still around and still, like, perfectly willing to speak up. Yeah.
- [30:10]
B
How do these other survivors talk about it? Because it doesn't sound like they're going to NRA conventions and giving speeches about. I mean, maybe some of them are. Some of them are. But. Yeah, what's the. I guess, like, the other prevailing narrative that has come from the survivors, if not one of victimization and government overreach?
- [30:24]
D
Well, I guess I would say that there is still a pervasive sense that they were horribly wronged and that they were attacked and that there was, like, a huge amount of fear and that their experience with the. The federal agents was one of being overpowered and that the violence and the death that ensued didn't have to happen. But I think that being used, it's sort of like that next leap where it then becomes Donald Trump is like, yeah, just like me. Just like how I'm victimized by the federal government even as I was myself president. Like, that's sort of the step where they're like, wait, my victimization is not the same as whatever you feel like you are experiencing?
- [31:11]
B
Totally. I mean. I mean, Pace specifically brought in the Mar A Lago example. But after the rally, a lot of people were making connections between Waco and January 6th, just because at the rally, there was this massive screen that showed footage of the January 6th insurrection. And then Trump stood at a podium with his hand over his heart as a song called justice for all played, which is basically a song sung by a choir of January 6th prisoners singing the national anthem, interspersed with clips of Trump reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Unfortunately, I'm going make you listen to it.
- [32:06]
C
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
- [32:11]
D
Okay.
- [32:12]
B
I think now it's the next seven verses of the national anthem.
- [32:17]
D
Oh, dear.
- [32:17]
B
I will. I'll save you from the rest of it.
- [32:20]
D
Oh, but it's so moving. Yeah.
- [32:23]
B
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that being played at Waco. I mean, it seems like this is a place that has become the site of so many heavily politicized events, so maybe it's just like another day at Waco. But.
- [32:35]
D
Well, I think it's also you know, because. Because there were these really horrific overreaction, missteps, use of violence and violent tactics by the federal government. That's all true. That all happened. Which in some ways, that overreaction has overshadowed the fact that the Branch Davidians were breaking these laws. They were doing illegal weapons dealings, and there were children being sexually assaulted repeatedly.
- [33:05]
B
To the point that it's surprising to me that people would be so quick to want to, like, identify with them. I feel like it's a very loaded identification.
- [33:13]
D
Yeah. At this time, when, you know, groomer talk is like, the kind of panic of the moment when you have somebody who is, like, literally doing that. But it kind of shows how that. How that position of victimhood is, like, just so powerful and so desirable. And so in some ways, like, particularly on the right, to be able to have that stance of grievance and of being wronged means that everything else is forgiven.
- [33:44]
B
And as you say in your piece critical of government overreach, during a time when people talk about government overreach, it's often looking at the right and what they're doing in schools and that sort of thing. It's very convenient.
- [33:55]
D
Right. And it's just sort of like, well, the government should sort of. Of only be deployed against the people who I perceive to be my enemies, politically or religiously or otherwise. And anytime any sort of accountability comes at me, then that is a great and horrible wrong. And I think the way that Waco played out the violence and the heavy handed tactics and then the lying afterwards, unfortunately, just really kind of reinforced that line of thinking. And that's why it's been so useful and remains so useful to this day, even as all the complexities of what really happened there get left out.
- [34:34]
B
Well, thank you so much.
- [34:36]
D
Thank you.
- [34:37]
B
Rachel Monroe is a contributing writer at the New Yorker, where she covers Texas and the Southwest. She is the author of Savage True Stories of Women, Crime and Obsession. This has been the political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggitt. The show is produced by Michelle Moses with help from Sidney Cobb. We had special production assistance today by Tom Cody. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentina. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Thank you so much for listening.
- [35:13]
E
Right now we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [35:44]
D
From prx.