Podcast Summary:

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: In the Civil Service, Loyalty Now Comes Before Expertise
Date: June 11, 2018
Host: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Featured Guests: David Remnick, Evan Osnos, Matthew Allen

Overview

This episode examines dramatic shifts within the U.S. civil service under the Trump administration, particularly the prioritization of personal loyalty to the president over technical expertise and institutional ethics. Through a conversation between New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos and former Bureau of Land Management communications director Matthew Allen, listeners gain firsthand insight into how these changes are affecting federal agencies, employees, and the public’s access to information.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Approach to the Civil Service

(02:49–04:13)

• Donald Trump campaigned on promises to both massively cut government and fill it with “the best and most serious people.”
• The administration’s approach led to significant government vacancies: 79,000 civil servants left in the first nine months, far surpassing comparable periods in prior administrations.
• About half of the 600+ crucial top federal jobs remained unfilled, with the administration struggling to find candidates both technically skilled and fervently loyal to the president.

Notable Quote:

“He has shaken up the government in ways that are really dramatic, actually, and frankly, in ways that don’t really appear on the front page of the paper very often… there’s tremendous turmoil beneath the surface of the water.”
— Evan Osnos (02:49)

2. Loyalty Versus Expertise: Historical Context

(04:38–06:35)

• The episode connects Trump’s staffing approach to the old spoils system of Andrew Jackson’s era (“to the victor go the spoils”), where jobs were distributed based on personal loyalty.
• After the 19th century, reforms created a nonpartisan, merit-based civil service.
• Under Nixon, renewed attempts to sideline career civil servants led to further legal protections; Trump’s actions are seen as echoing some of these past tactics.

Notable Quote:

“Andrew Jackson believed, I want to fill the government with people who are personally loyal to me… Congress at the end of the 19th century said this is really no way to run a government.”
— Evan Osnos (04:50)

3. The Practical Impact: Internal Pressure, Vacancies, Morale

(06:51–08:41)

• Federal employees face pressure to advance the president’s personal and political interests, sometimes at the expense of ethical standards, transparency, or institutional missions.
• Many career officials have felt their roles narrowed, marginalized, or made untenable, leading to resignations or “turkey farming”—reassignment to meaningless positions.

Notable Quote:

“There’s tremendous pressure right now on civil servants… to do things that in many cases, they feel is inappropriate. That’s designed to protect the President’s political interests, prevent embarrassment—not to do the work of the civil service, which is not supposed to be related to politics.”
— Evan Osnos (07:09)

4. Matthew Allen’s Story: A Case Study

(09:20–18:41)

The Assignment and Ethical Challenge

(09:20–12:13)

• When Ryan Zinke became Secretary of the Interior, Allen observed a clampdown on information, with decision-making concentrated in a tight circle and transparency stifled.
• Allen was ordered to let leadership preview and potentially block Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests that concerned themselves—a move he resisted as a conflict of interest.

Notable Quote:

“Having the approval authority rest with the individual with whom the information concerns seemed like a conflict of interest to me.”
— Matthew Allen (10:48)

Information Control and Leak Hysteria

(11:11–12:52)

• After leaks revealed plans to roll back public land protections, internal communication became secretive and paranoid: meetings became paper-only, documented evidence was strictly controlled.
• The environment spurred further leaks and mounting distrust.

Notable Quote:

“They started producing things in limited hard copy only... and that environment in turn, seems to have spawned even more leaks.”
— Matthew Allen (12:15)

Allen’s Reassignment and “Turkey Farming”

(13:03–16:04)

• Allen was questioned about stopping leaks before coming under suspicion himself.
• Ultimately, he was reassigned to a position stripped of responsibility, access, and relevance—a classic case of “turkey farming.”

Notable Quote:

“It certainly feels like the intention was that I would have no direct access or intersection with the media, with Congress, with external organizations or non governmental organizations...”
— Matthew Allen (16:04)

The Motivation to Stay and Speak Out

(17:25–18:38)

• Allen remained in the government, upholding his oath to the Constitution and the public rather than any particular office or individual.
• He chose to speak out, adhering to a professional principle of “maximum disclosure and minimum delay.”

Notable Quotes:

“I felt that I took my oath to the Constitution and not to an office and not to an individual. And I serve the American people.”
— Matthew Allen (17:35)

“I can’t be in a position where I’m asking the agency I work for to do that and where I’m asking my employees to do that if I’m not willing to live that as well.”
— Matthew Allen (18:19)

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• On Trump’s personnel approach and resulting vacancies:
  “In the first nine months of the Trump administration, 79,000 civil servants left the government, which is much larger than the same period under the Obama administration.”
  — Evan Osnos (02:49)

• Explaining turkey farming:
  “There’s an old saying that when they want to move a civil servant out of a job to get rid of them… they are turkey farmed, they’re sent to a job that has no particular urgency or no sort of central role...”
  — Evan Osnos (15:40)

• On professional standards versus political pressure:
  “We were there and prepared to do what the President asked of us. The challenge was that we never had the opportunity to do so. My colleagues and I were removed from our positions as soon as it was legally feasible for those types of movements to happen.”
  — Matthew Allen (16:44)

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Content | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:16 | Dorothy Wickenden introduces the episode’s main subject | | 02:49 | Evan Osnos on Trump’s approach to government staffing | | 04:50 | Historical context: Loyalty versus expertise | | 06:51 | Ramifications of unfilled positions—Osnos’ reporting | | 09:20 | Interview with Matthew Allen begins | | 10:48 | FOIA requests and ethical standards | | 12:15 | Hard-copy-only communications after leaks | | 13:37 | Allen accused of being the leak | | 15:40 | “Turkey farming” explanation | | 17:35 | Allen on his motivation to remain in the civil service | | 18:19 | Allen on deciding to speak out publicly |

Tone and Language

• The tone is serious, sober, and reflective, maintaining a journalistic and analytic perspective while using clear, precise, and personal language, especially during interviews.
• The episode frames these bureaucratic struggles as fundamental questions about government ethics, transparency, effective policy, and the meaning of public service.

Summary for Listeners

If you haven’t listened, this episode provides a revealing look at the Trump administration’s impact on the civil service—showing how loyalty to the president is increasingly valued over experience or ethical standards. Through Matthew Allen’s story and historical context from Evan Osnos, listeners see the real-life consequences for federal workers and the American public. The discussion raises critical questions about what kind of government Americans should want—and what might be lost in the transition away from expertise and institutional integrity.