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- [00:00]
Tyler Foggatt
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- [01:43]
Tyler Foggatt
Hey, Dexter.
- [01:44]
Dexter Filkins
Hey, Tyler.
- [01:45]
Tyler Foggatt
Marco Rubio is one of only two people to concurrently serve as U.S. secretary of State and as National Security advisor. The other is Henry Kissinger, who, depending on whom you ask, is either one of the most effective or notorious figures in the history of US Foreign policy. Do you think that Rubio has the chance to wield the kind of power and influence that Kissinger did?
- [02:08]
Dexter Filkins
God, that's a great question. No, I think it's a different. It's a different world. But more important, I think it's just a completely different administration. So if you look at Kissinger, I mean, he was a giant. He roamed the world. He was intervening everywhere. He won the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating peace in the Middle East. He opened China to the United States and to the West. He negotiated arms control with the Soviet Union. I mean, he Was. You know, plenty of people loathe Henry Kissinger, but he was. That's because he did so much.
- [02:41]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, they loathe him, but they don't deny his power.
- [02:44]
Dexter Filkins
Yeah. Or they don't deny his accomplishments. And so you might disagree with some of those, but he's an extraordinary figure in. In post war history. But he worked for two different presidents, Nixon and Ford. And I think this is just a very different. We live in a very different time now. And I think this is. Look, I think this is first and foremost, this is the foreign policy of Donald J. Trump. And Marco Rubio has kind of found his much smaller place, his much smaller perch in that galaxy.
- [03:18]
Tyler Foggatt
That's Dexter Filkins, a staff writer at the New Yorker who recently profiled Marco Ruby Rubio as Secretary of State and National Security advisor. Rubio now occupies a role of extraordinary power, one that places him at the center of Donald Trump's second term, which has been marked by an increasingly aggressive and unilateral approach to foreign policy. Although Rubio came into the Trump administration with well documented views and priorities that differed from Trump's, it's unclear to what extent Rubio has influenced Trump's foreign policy goals or molded himself according to Trump's whims and whether it's all part of a larger pattern of political opportunism. I wanted to talk with Dexter about Rubio's influence on Trump's escalation in Venezuela and what it signals for US Policy in Latin America. I also wanted to talk about how Rubio made the journey from Trump critic to one of the most central figures in his second administration and what the State Department looks like both at home and abroad under Rubio's leadership. This is the political scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt and I'm a senior editor at the New Yorker. So you said that Rubio has found a smaller perch in the Trump administration, or I guess like the Trump galaxy. But at the same time, it does seem like he's responsible for a lot of things, or at least the narrative has been that he is the driving force behind a lot of things, including Maduro's capture in Venezuela and the escalation in Latin America since. So having written this profile of Rubio to Do you think that's accurate, that Rubio was kind of the driving force behind that operation, or do you think that Trump's desire to dominate the Western Hemisphere and all this talk about the Don Roe Doctrine, as Trump put it, is actually the main thing that we're seeing here at Work?
- [05:08]
Dexter Filkins
Well, I think there's a couple parts of that answer, and the first one is, I think until recently, he was a remarkably kind of bit player in the Trump game. And I mean, right off the bat, Trump gave to his old real estate buddy, a guy named Steve Witkoff, basically all the big crises in the world and said, go solve these. And Stephen Wyckoff, I think it's not unfair to say he doesn't know a lot about places like Ukraine or Gaza, but Trump sent him out there and said, do it. And so right off the bat, as Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, Marco Rubio was kind of deprived of what would ordinarily be kind of the big things for him. But somebody told me this is in the piece, but when he was interviewed, when Trump spoke to him about the job, he said, look, I want to do Latin America. That's what I want to do. And I think that fits. That's his passion. His parents are from Cuba. He knows the region. He's fluent in Spanish. He thinks, and this is in the piece, too, he thinks countries like Venezuela and Argentina and Colombia, Brazil, these are great countries and they can be greater. And he feels that way. And so, yes, he has been the driving force in this really pretty stunning last few weeks in Venezuela. He's the main driving force there.
- [06:29]
Tyler Foggatt
Just going back real quickly, when you say that Rubio said that he wanted to do Latin America, what exactly does that mean? Does it mean establishing democracy across Latin America? I feel like there's all this talk, especially now that we're focusing on Venezuela about, you know, getting their oil and all this stuff and, like, what are Rubio's main goals in the region?
- [06:50]
Dexter Filkins
Well, this is, this is, I mean, this is like the $64,000 question. Marco Rubio has spent his entire career champion in human rights and democracy, and particularly in places like Latin America. And he, he despises Maduro or despised Maduro as the leader of Venezuela because he was a corrupt, overbearing dictator. And, and just, just as, you know, his parents are from Cuba, he hates the Cuban regime. And so suddenly. Let me just back up a bit. Before the, the very, you know, the surprise military operation that captured Maduro, before that, Rubio was in regular, constant, almost everyday touch with the Venezuelan democratic opposition. And I think it's fair to say they fully expected to take over, you know, if such time came as Maduro was no longer there, they would move in to govern.
- [07:44]
Tyler Foggatt
So you're talking about Machado?
- [07:45]
Dexter Filkins
Yes, yeah, Maria Machado and others. And I spoke to them beforehand, they're ready to go. And, you know, they've been pretty quiet since. And I think, but I think it's fair to say they're devastated by this. And like, you know, maybe events will change. But I think this is the, this gets to the heart of who is Marco Rubio? And again, he spent his entire career advocating democracy in these places, and suddenly he finds himself kind of running the government of Venezuela. But it's the, it's Maduro 2.0. It's the same people. They're the ones running the country. They're still there. It's. And so how Marco Rubio squares that in his mind, in his soul, I don't know. But it's a tough one. It's a real tough one.
- [08:29]
Tyler Foggatt
I don't know how he squares it in his mind. And I also don't even really understand how it works in practice. Like, how is Rubio going to simultaneously serve as the governor of Venezuela or the viceroy of Venezuela, as the Washington Post put it, while the remnants of the Maduro regime kind of continue? What is that supposed to look like? And what do we know about the role that Rubio is meant to play in the next phase of America's plan for Venezuela?
- [08:56]
Dexter Filkins
Well, look, I should say my overwhelming impression from my reporting is that they're kind of, you know, they're making this up as they go along. I mean, there isn't much of a plan. I think they were.
- [09:06]
Tyler Foggatt
It's too bad to hear that because it's like you feel that way when you're watching the news, but then you're like, you know, like Dexter is going to do this piece and report on it and figure out that there is actually a plan here, even if it's a plan that we don't necessarily agree with. But it's too bad that actually you got like an up close look at the situation and it is just what we kind of assumed from watching from afar.
- [09:24]
Dexter Filkins
Yeah. So I think, I think it's a big, I think it's a big improv. But what Rubio has said, and he's been pretty clear about this, is like, we're not sending troops in there. I mean, Trump has said, you know, we'll do it if we need to, but we don't want to send troops in there. We don't even really want to run the country. But what we will do is if the government that is still there, all the bad people who were there before, if they don't do exactly what we want, we're going to blockade the oil again. And we're going to, you know, we're going to starve them out. So it's basically, you know, kind of government from afar by coercion. And so if you don't do what I say, I'm going to whack you on the head with this. And that's the plan as we speak. And it's. Somebody said to me, and I think this is true, the trouble or the difficulty in this administration is only about six people who make decisions, and the whole administration, Rubio is one of them, but he doesn't have any help. He's the national security advisor. He's the secretary of State. I mean, and I, you know, I'm on the email list every morning. It's like, Marco Rubio had a long conversation with, you know, the president of India, and Margot Rubio had a long conversation with, you know, the president of Germany. And it's like he's doing all this stuff and he's spinning these hats and, and, and it, it's like, and you're going to govern Venezuela. And I think the answer is it's no. You know, we're going to watch this play out. But I think it's, it's pretty difficult.
- [10:48]
Tyler Foggatt
You mentioned that Rubio isn't necessarily getting everything that he wants in Venezuela, given that he was, you know, a champion of Machado. And it doesn't seem like, at least for now, like, you know, the opposition is going to be kind of enabled to run the country, or at least it doesn't seem like the Trump administration is going to be trying to facilitate that. But do you think that Rubio was willing to kind of put up with only getting half of what he wanted there? Because the whole point of this operation, or at least part of the point, was to kind of put Cuba in a bad position. I mean, just the news about Cuba was getting so much of their oil from Venezuela. That is no longer the case. I think the US Is now allowing Mexico to provide some oil to Cuba, but for the most part, it seems like they're trying to cut off the oil supply. And I guess I just wonder if. Is the long game for Rubio, Cuba, and do you think that he's willing to put up with not necessarily getting everything that he wanted in Venezuela because Cuba is what is on his mind, and what happened in Venezuela will enable the administration to, to go into Cuba?
- [11:52]
Dexter Filkins
Well, I think, you know, I'm not sure there is a long game. I don't think there's much of a plan But I think the dream, the absolute dream, and you hear it, you know, if you spend one day in Miami, you'll hear this. But they take out Maduro, Cuba's going to fall after that, and probably the lefty Nicaraguan regime will fall after that. And Cuba is. You know, Cuba economically is a complete shambles. It's a disaster. And so somebody said to me, he's quoted in the piece, if Marco Rubio ends up as being the man who took down Maduro and the Cuban regime, you know, there's going to be a statue of him on every block in Miami. And, you know, Marco Rubio's an ambitious man, and so these things are not. Are not lost on him. But is he playing the long game? It's pretty long. It's a pretty long game, because I think Marco Rubio has spent his entire career advocating for democracy and for human rights. And he believes that Latin America, it's a region full of great countries. And he didn't. That's why he hated Maduro. He hated Maduro because of what he did to Venezuela, which is a wealthy, educated country. And he didn't get what he wanted. He didn't get what he spent his entire career advocating. And that's got a. You know, he. Somewhere inside Marco Rubio. He had to make a kind of a terrible compromise.
- [13:14]
Tyler Foggatt
So the web headline for your piece is How Marco Rubio Went From Little Marco to Trump's Foreign Policy Enabler, which is just great copy, by the way. And we're going to take a quick break, and then when we get back, I want to try and answer that question and just talk a little bit more about Rubio's rise in politics more generally, but also his road to the State Department. So this is the political scene from the New Yorker. We'll be back in just a moment.
- [13:44]
Dexter Filkins
Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [14:22]
Tyler Foggatt
So I wanna talk a little bit about Rubio's rise, which I think is really fascinating, because it wasn't that long ago that it really seemed like there was just no world in which he would really have A prominent place in the Trump ecosystem. Like, I kind of thought that he was going the way of, like, Chris Christie or something, where it's like, you run for president, you don't get it, Trump hates you. The party, you know, has coalesced around Trump, and so you don't really have a position in it anymore. And that clearly has not been the way that the story has played out. So let's just start with Rubio entering national politics. Why did he get involved? I mean, what made him want to be a politician? And I guess, like, what made him a politician that we were all sort of watching at a relatively young age?
- [15:08]
Dexter Filkins
There's a wonderful line in his memoir. He said, I've always been in a hurry to get to my future. So I think he's a very ambitious man. I think Marco Ruby wants to be President of the United States. And, you know, he came from Miami, a small town called West Miami outside of kind of Main, Maine, Miami. And his. His parents are. Fled Cuba. I mean, they fled Cuba before Castro, but they're Cuban Americans. And if you're a Cuban American in Miami, that's a very particular milieu. And the hostility towards regimes like Cuba and Venezuela, like, comes naturally to you. But Rubio is in the Senate. He had a fantastic reputation. He was. He's a serious guy. He was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, came into the Senate in 2010. He was on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Those are really important committees. He did his work, as somebody said to me, you know, he reads. He's a voracious reader. And this is an aide. He said. He's shaking his head, saying, you know, most senators don't read. And he said, you know, but Marco Rubio reads. And so he's a. And you just have to watch him. He's great. He's, like, super articulate. He's really fast. He can talk about anything. And he always. It's a gift. He appears kind of deeply sincere. And so he's a natural, I think, to kind of. He rose right to the top and right to the front.
- [16:27]
Tyler Foggatt
And what school of politics did he come to represent, like, neocon Tea Party?
- [16:32]
Dexter Filkins
Well, somebody said to me in the piece, you know, he was the Neocon candidate in 2016. I don't think that's. Maybe. Maybe he was a neocon. I think, for me, he was kind of Ronald Reagan, Republican. You know, it was like, anti communism, human rights. We are the leader of the free world or leader of the West. That's what he brought to this. And, you know, and then the kind of the domestic part of the Reagan agenda as well. And so what happened? And I think the quick answer to what happened to that and what happened to Marco Rubio is 2016, he went out to run for president. He, like all the other Republican candidates, got blown out by. By Donald J. Trump. And. And Trump has completely transformed the party. So if you look at. You can watch Rubio after 2016, he clearly kind of had a conversation with himself where he said, like, you can either keep being a Ronald Reagan Republican or you can. And in which case, you're finished politically in the Republican Party, or you can change every position you have. And I think he chose the latter. And so you can watch it. I mean, you can watch it kind of over time. He's kind of. He just. He's changed dramatically in what he stands for and what he represents.
- [17:47]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, I mean, there's this. There's an amazing quote in your piece where you, you know, you're quoting an unnamed political figure in Miami who says, the one constant in Marco Rubio's career is that he has betrayed every mentor and every principle he's ever had in order to claim power for himself. So we'll talk a little bit about, like, how that's played out during his time at the department, But I'm wondering if you can give us some notable examples of this from earlier in Rubio's career.
- [18:14]
Dexter Filkins
Well, here's. Here's the best example, and I think it illustrates quite a lot, was because it also illustrates kind of how the country was changing, was in 2013, 2014, the Senate and Congress tried, I think, for the last time. It was the last great attempt to reform the immigration system. And Rubio was helping to lead that. There was a group called the Gang of Eight. It was eight senators. Rubio was the lone Republican Latino. It was people like John McCain and Lindsey Graham. And it looked like it was gonna happen, and it was like it was full across the board reform. It was like more security at the border and legalization of people and amnesty, et cetera. And Rubio was absolutely at the forefront of that. And what happened was pretty clear. All told me was he took a trip to New Hampshire and. And he. He could see that the party was changing. And when I say he took a trip to New Answer, he was thinking about running for president, which he did a couple years later. But. But at the same time, the. The Republican Party in the United States was changing drastically and very rapidly. And so. So you had voices for the, you know, like Rush Limbaugh who was saying, you know, we're being invaded by, you know, illegal aliens coming across the border, millions and millions of them. And Rubio sensed. I mean, he's incredibly astute politically. Rubio sensed the party was changing, and so the Senate, of which he was a member, passed the immigration reform, and then he backed away. And when Rubio backed away, it fell apart. The whole thing fell apart. And the Senate Congress has not been able to pass. I think they've tried a couple times, but they haven't passed anything like that. That big, grand attempt. That was the last time that they made a great try at it, and it fell apart. I mean, it's like, you know, somebody, like, doesn't like him, and he's gonna collapse. You know, we can't have a guy like that running for president. I used to take him seriously.
- [20:12]
Tyler Foggatt
Wow. Let's Fast forward to 2016 and Trump and Rubio's dynamic during the primary. One of the things that was interesting about your piece is, like, I just totally assumed that Trump and Rubio hated each other during that period, in part because they were throwing insults at each other. Trump calling Rubio a little Marco and Rubio then making a joke about the size of Trump's hands and, like, and his spray tan and all this stuff. But there's this part where you talk about how, like, behind the scenes, they were actually kind of friendly with each other, and they had something of a rapport. So can you explain just, like, what your sense is of what their relationship was actually like during that period and what it's like now, like, kind of what. What it is that they. How they're able to get along, given that they just seem like two completely different people when you. You watch them on television.
- [20:59]
Dexter Filkins
They do. I mean, I have to repeat the joke, the. The one that he said about. He said, you should. You should sue the guy who did that to your face. Um, but, you know, that' really good, like, high school locker room talk, you know, But. And then they would go back. Apparently, they'd go backstage after the debate. Remember, there were, like, you know, 12 people on the die as candidates, and they would kind of talk, and it was. Okay, so it was like, all part of. It was sort of understood to be, like, part of the. Part of the game. But at the time, you know, Rubio couldn't have been ideologically more removed from Donald Trump. And so over the past eight years, now nine years, Rubio kind of transformed himself. And so, I mean, I had this conversation when I had a conversation with somebody who was basically in the room when he was offered the job Secretary of State. And basically, it came down to, like, they evolved a little bit. Marco evolved a little bit, but also he saluted Trump and said, like, you're in charge, and I'm here to carry out your policy. And so that's basically what changed. I think that Rubio was forced, wasn't forced. I mean, he chose to. To remain viable in politics, he had to basically change almost everything that he stood for.
- [22:10]
Tyler Foggatt
I mean, when Trump won the election again in 2024, the sense was that he was just surrounding himself with a bunch of loyalists. And, you know, I think that gave a lot of people pause when confirming those loyalists. And it's interesting to me that Rubio, despite his increased Trumpiness, you know, he was still confirmed by the Senate 99 oh in 2024. So what do you think accounts for him having that bipartisan stamp of approval?
- [22:36]
Dexter Filkins
Yeah, I mean, he had a great reputation in the Senate. Marco Rubio is a serious senator. And so I think it's fair to say the senators thought, well, okay, this is a pretty volatile bunch of people. Like, there's a steady hand for foreign policy. Like, there's a serious guy. So he sailed right through. I should add, when Marco Rubio returned to the Senate to testify, it was a very different, very different scene a few months later.
- [23:04]
Tyler Foggatt
Is that when he was coming back as National Security Adviser? Are you referring to something else?
- [23:09]
Dexter Filkins
Yeah. So a few months later, I think it was in front of the Senate Appropriations Committee or the Foreign Relations Committee, but Rubio testified, and the senators just absolutely went after him, particularly the Democratic ones. But it was. And there's an extraordinary exchange between him and Senator Haaland, Democrat from Maryland. And he says, like, I thought we believed the same things. I thought, you know, we both believed in democracy and human rights. I thought, what happened to you? You know, and he's like, I regret voting for you. And, you know, look at the Sudan. There's a genocide there, there's a famine there. And he's like, you shut down hundreds and hundreds of kitchens there. People died because of your decisions. And Rubio was just defiant. And so Senator Van Hollen said, I. I regret voting for you. And Rubio said, the fact that you regret voting for me confirms that I'm doing a good job.
- [24:00]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah. That is kind of an insane back and forth between the two of them. Yeah. I want to talk more about kind of like the dismantling of USAID and the other things that have happened under Rubio's watch at the State Department. But first, let's talk more about Rubio becoming National Security Advisor as well, which, I mean, now it feels like it's been so long since this happened. But that's because Mike Waltz sort of embarrassed himself in the whole signal gate fiasco. Right. And then stepped down from that role. And so then Trump decided, I mean, what was the idea there? Just like, oh, he seems like he's doing a good job as Secretary of State, so let's have him be the National Security Advisor, too.
- [24:39]
Dexter Filkins
Yeah, I mean, in theory, it's not insane.
- [24:42]
Tyler Foggatt
Yeah, I guess I wonder how weird this is. Or not weird.
- [24:44]
Dexter Filkins
It's just a lot of. It's just a lot of work. But I think what's interesting, when Rubio was only Secretary of State, that's, that's the State Department. That's the Truman Building. It's down the road from the White House. You're completely removed. And then when he became National Security Advisor, also, he moved into basically an office right off the Oval Office. So he's in, he's in the White House every day that he chooses to be, and he has Trump's ear and that. And that kind of, you know, that's the attraction of that job. It puts you right in the middle of the decision making. And so, as somebody, Eric Rubin, former ambassador, said to me in the piece, he's not seen in State Department. He's not really a presence in the State Department. He's in the White House.
- [25:26]
Tyler Foggatt
So he's not, I guess he's not spending all of his time in the State Department. But how much of what has happened in the State Department during the, you know, just like, since the beginning of Trump's second term can we kind of attribute to Rubio? There's a long discussion in the piece of, you know, USAID closing down and the question of whether this was a doge effort, whether this was something that Rubio was interested in. I mean, it seemed like Rubio kind of took responsibility for it at one point, but then behind closed doors, he said that he, you know, hadn't been. Didn't know that this was going to happen. How much of, like, what we've seen can we attribute to, you know, his own decision making versus other people just kind of like running amok in the government?
- [26:11]
Dexter Filkins
Well, I think, I think the short answer is he's a good soldier. I mean, he does what he's told, and he signed up for Trump's agenda, not his own. But I'll tell you, there's a good Story that illustrates this kind of perfectly, I think, everything you're suggesting. So Rubio's first trip abroad when he became Secretary of State, was to Central America, Guatemala, Panama and El Salvador. And so he, you know, it had been announced that USAID, the giant US foreign aid agency that distributes, you know, 40 some odd billion dollars a year, thousands of programs, humanitarian aid, AIDS prevention, food aid, all of those things. And it's announced that. That USAID was being abolished. And so Rubio flew into Guatemala, where USAID has a very prominent role in basically, I mean, we spent a couple hundred million dollars a year basically trying to control migration to the United States. I mean, it's directly part of Trump's agenda. And Rubio standing in the courtyard and he essentially says to people, I didn't know about this. I didn't know they were going to do this. I didn't support it. I think, you know, essentially I'm going to do my best to kind of contain the damage. You know, people are crying literally in the. And like, a couple weeks later, literally, he's testifying in front of the U.S. senate, and he's saying, I did those cuts. He literally says this. I did the cuts. I was in my hotel room in Guatemala and I went through the budget line by line, and I did the cuts. And so it doesn't make sense. You know, those are two completely different things. And so, look, I think if you take a job like Rubio has, it's gotta be tough. It's gotta be really tough. Cause he is basically, he spent his entire career in 2023. He sent a letter to President Biden advocating for an increase in funding in usaid. And then he's presided over the gutting and the near destruction of the agency. It's gotta hurt on the inside. I mean, it's gotta kill him. And so I think that you get a few glimpses of that kind of along the way and kind of moments like this.
- [28:17]
Tyler Foggatt
Can you speak a little bit more about, like, the material and concrete effects of the State Department dismantling usaid?
- [28:25]
Dexter Filkins
Well, USAID is the kind of premier, not the only, but the premier aid agency, the agency that doles out tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid to countries around the world. And I think the total is like $43 billion was its budget that's just been, you know, USAID was abolished. I think its staff was cut by 90%. As I understand it, the funding was cut in half. And so it's, you know, it's just been eviscerated. And so I tried to track some of the effects of that. And there's the obvious ones. There's the. The famine ad and the. The aid we're giving in Sudan for genocide, like people victims of genocide, as I mentioned. But, like, all over the globe right now, what's happening all over, particularly in Africa and Asia, is there's a. There's a scramble for resources, and it's basically China versus the United States. And the United States has its embassies, but with usaid, it had thousands of people around the globe. You know, these are civilians. They're. They're kind of mixing with people. They speak the languages sometimes. And so, you know, we're like, pulling these places. And so, as any number of people said to me, like, the Chinese are just rolling right in. And so there was a great example that I found. There's tons of resources that we need for the modern world, for. For microchips, for the rare earth minerals, all of those things in Congo and in Zambia, and there's lots of mining going on there. And the United States was building a railroad essentially across Africa, through Angola to the Atlantic Ocean. Awesome, right? Great idea. Let's get the rare earth minerals and put them on ships, and then they just are dispersed around the world. And they're doing development projects all along the railroad. You know, it's like 100 miles long, more than 100 miles, and it's an important project. And the Chinese are doing the same thing, except in the other direction. They're in the same places in Congo, in Zambia, and they've built a railroad, and it goes east to the Indian Ocean and then to China. And so the competition is like. You can watch it. It's happening. It's happening right there. And that project, the. The American project was shut down and stalled. The money stopped flowing. The Chinese just kept on rolling. Now, I've been told that it looks as though the project. It's very hard to tell, but maybe they're turning that project back on after because so many people screamed about it. There are thousands of projects like this. Thousands. And we're in direct competition with China for resources, for minerals, for people, for everything you can imagine. And so as we pull back, the Chinese roll in.
- [31:00]
Tyler Foggatt
You mentioned the layoffs that happened under his watch. And then I'm curious about the other. The other things that come to mind, you know, when you hear the phrase, like, Rubio's accomplishments, like just sort of the things that if he were to run for president after Trump's term ends, that he will e try to run on or things that will be used against him when he is running. I'm thinking about what's been happening with the State Department and visas, student visas and that sort of thing. How much of that is kind of stuff that's happened under Rubio.
- [31:33]
Dexter Filkins
Well, I think he's an ambitious guy. I think he wants to be president, but I think he can't but be fully and completely identified with Trump's agenda. And so because he's carrying it out. And so he's a Trumper now, like, if not in his heart or in his conscience and his soul, certainly in his actions, which is what matters.
- [31:53]
Tyler Foggatt
But it has been the State Department that's been, I guess, like he might be following orders from Trump. But I'm just thinking about, like, going after student protesters like, you know, Mahmoud Khalil, that sort of thing. Like, how much of that is like a State Department initiative, even if it's something that is being ordered by, you know, that's coming straight from the top.
- [32:11]
Dexter Filkins
It's not clear exactly, but I think that Rubio, I mean, he sends out regular updates on the number of visas that he's revoked for people in the United States. I mean, I just, I think the latest one was. And he's, you know, he's bragging about it. He said, I've revoked 85,000 visas. So most of those are like, you know, people that are here as tourists or people that are here as students and, you know, they've been ordered to kind of State Department of employees have been ordered to examine people's social media posts and to look at their history. And if they find anything kind of anti American, they throw them out of the country. He's bragging about.
- [32:48]
Tyler Foggatt
In a minute. Let's talk about foreign policy beyond Latin America and how involved Rubio actually is in those policies. This is the political scene from the New Yorker. Are we living in a new world of strength, power and force? Well, that's what President Trump's adviser, Stephen Miller Sundays. The recent US intervention in Venezuela suggests. We may be moving into a new world order. So every day this week, the Global Story is joining forces with our BBC podcast. Friends around the world who have unmatched reporting expertise in their regions. What is a sphere of influence? Who's got one? And if you're not a predator these days, does that mean you're prey? Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So we talked about Venezuela earlier, but I want to step back and look at how Rubio has been handling diplomacy more generally with other countries. There are a bunch that we could talk about, but I want to lead with a few that seem particularly top of mind. Let's start with Iran, where we saw massive anti government protests over the weekend and a death toll that keeps rising. Some estimates range from around 500 to 3,000, and there are even some estimates that are as high as 12,000. Trump is allegedly weighing a variety of options for responses, including military strikes, cyber attacks, and increased sanctions. What do you think is the ultimate goal with Iran and the most likely outcome here? And how involved is Rubio in this? Or is this more of like a Steve Witkoff thing?
- [34:38]
Dexter Filkins
No, I think this is Trump. But I think the weird thing when you're trying to figure out the Trump foreign policy is, I mean, as someone said to me, there's no point in trying to intellectualize this. It's a series of emotional responses, but in some cases they're the, you know, Trump's gut is, you know, he sees what's happening to the people of Iran and it angers him, you know, but this is, I saw yesterday, Rubio, I think he was on the Hill or he may have just been on television, but he spoke about. This is Rubio at his best. He spoke about the protesters in Iran, and he spoke about Iranian Persian civilization and how essentially the regime is not part of the country and at war with the country. And he was fabulous. He was fantastically articulate. And I think he's on that. He can speak with conviction and what he really, really believes. And so it must be a relief to him. But what's Trump gonna do? I think, again, look at, look at the Trump foreign policy. It's, I mean, rhetorically, they call it America first, which means, you know, bring everything home, you know, and to hell with our allies and all of that. But in fact, Trump, Trump is intervening indiscriminately almost everywhere. And so he, you know, he dropped a series of 30,000 pound bombs on the Iranian nuclear reactors. And so it wouldn't surprise me at all if he attacks the regime. It's very, very difficult to think of the options that he's asked for. Trump has asked for options in Iran for military options. It's just very, very difficult to imagine how he could shape events there. I mean, you know, you could, they could try to kill Khamenei, I'm sure, and maybe they will, but I, but I think you could also imagine that the government in Iran. And, you know, I've done, I've been to Iran Several times. The regime in Iran is basically. It's a bunch of clerics out front, but it's basically military government. It's. It's run by the Republican Guards. That's what it is. It's a giant steel frame. And so if they kill the clerics, the steel frame is still there, like, the military's still running the place. And so I don't know. I don't know how much it would help to kill somebody like the Supreme Leader. Maybe it would topple it. Maybe it would, you know, bring about the revolution which Trump claims to support. So it's a tricky one. I mean, it's a tricky one, and maybe he's bluffing. We just don't know at this point. Trump may not know.
- [37:03]
Tyler Foggatt
Going back to Rubio, I guess, like, if it's. If he don't think he's gonna be that involved in. If we're seeing. What we're seeing in Iran is more Trump's own, you know, kind of desires, I guess. Where do you think that we're going to see Rubio's influence next, beyond Latin America? Like, do you think that he is. How much of a role is he going to be playing in whole Greenland thing? You know, just given that Rubio was seen by a lot of people to be like one of the adults in the room in Trump's administration, at least, as compared to figures like Pete Hagseth and a more serious antidote to some of Trump's, like, worst foreign policy impulses.
- [37:38]
Dexter Filkins
Well, I mean, look, the Greenland, you know, the Greenland thing is, it's insane, but not least because it is, you know, Greenland is part of Denmark. Denmark is, like, one of our closest allies. They're like. They're like our best friends, you know, and so when 9, 11 happened, they sent troops to. To Afghanistan. Danish soldiers died in Afghanistan, they died in Iraq. And, you know, Iraq didn't even attack the United States. Danish soldiers died in Iraq. They are the best friends we have. We have a military base in Greenland, and. And I'm absolutely sure that if Trump asked for five more, the Danes would say, have at it. Awesome. You know, let's do it. And so that's what's puzzling here. And sometimes when you see what's happening there, the only answer that you can imagine is that Trump doesn't know those things. You know, Trump's concern about Greenland, I think, is legitimate. I mean, I think it's. It's. The Arctic is, like, up for grabs. The Chinese are there, the Russians are there. There's A lot going on up there, and Trump is rightly concerned about that. But it's like, you know, as usual, he's just smashing all the furniture.
- [38:48]
Tyler Foggatt
I'm glad you mentioned China, because that comes up in your piece, too. And you wrote that Rubio, in his 2023 book Decades of Decadence, advocated a more focused deployment of resources aimed at confronting China. And this kind of seems like Trump also has run on confronting China and having this, like, aggressive posture toward them. But then, you know, at the same time, you write that under Trump's second term, America really seems to be focused on dominating the Western Hemisphere and leaving Eurasia to China and Russia. And, you know, you characterize Trump's attitude and treatment of China as inconsistent. So, I guess, like, what do you make of the approach to China, and to what extent does Rubio, who, you know, was advocating for a stronger stance toward China, have a fingerprint on. On the China policies that we're seeing from the administration?
- [39:37]
Dexter Filkins
Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. The Republican Party, I think. I mean, in my view, correctly, they want to focus on China. There are plenty of people across the board who are focused, laser focused on China. The economy is galloping forward. Their military buildup is absolutely terrifying. The range and speed and sophistication of it. And so there are people like. People like Tom Cotton and Bridge Colby before he came into the administration. They're like, we got to pay attention here, because this is a pure competitor. Their economy is gaining on ours, and they have more than a billion people, and so we gotta pay attention. And so we're not paying attention. I mean, and that's the problem. There is no focus. It's just everywhere. It's Iran today, it's Venezuela the day before, and then it's Gaza, and then it's Ukraine. And so China is. Yeah, China is, like, all lost. But I think. I think you raise possibly the most important question, which is what Trump actually wants is a kind of a retreat from American global leadership. And essentially, we'll take the Western Hemisphere. That's ours, you guys take the rest. Russia, you take yours, and China, you take yours. That's what it looks like. And, you know, it's hard to know with Trump. So if you think if you're Japan, they must be trembling, and if you're Taiwan, democracy, our friend, maker of 95% of the world's most sophisticated microchips, without which modern life would come to an end, they must be terrified, because Trump is basically acting not as a superpower, but as a kind of Regional hegemon.
- [41:22]
Tyler Foggatt
So let's talk about Russia and Ukraine. How is Rubio using his influence there? And what do you think he wants out of that situation?
- [41:32]
Dexter Filkins
Super interesting. When Rubio became Secretary of State and National Security advisor, bizarrely, the president basically gave the most important crises in the world to Steve Wykoff. But on Ukraine, I think it's fair to say Wyckoff, he's come pretty close to kind of giving the store away to the Russians. And it is pretty clear from the reporting that I did that Rubio is. Rubio's working really hard to torpedo those efforts. They're working. He's, he's trying really hard to stop Wyckoff, like, there. He's trying to basically help the Ukrainians any way he can. And which is super interesting because it's like when you, when you, as a reporter, when you're dealing with a very hostile bureaucracy, you can't, I can't tell exactly what's happening inside the White House. It's like looking at a snowstorm and it's like, okay, there's a guy over there. I think that's a person. There's a tail, there's an eye. Is that a tiger? And so you just see these things. And so I think it's very difficult to know exactly. But I think it's fair to say that Rubio is fighting a kind of rear guard action against Wyckoff and what he sees as Wyckoff basically, like handing the whole thing to Putin and that Rubio's trying to stop that.
- [42:45]
Tyler Foggatt
That's fascinating. I don't think this is necessarily in the piece, but I do wonder if it came up in your reporting, like Rubio's reaction to Trump giving Witkoff all of these important duties that one would normally associate with the Secretary of State, like if that was seen as an insult or if it was kind of like the more the merrier. Because Rubio had no interest in getting involved in, you know, Gaza. As you, as you write, I wonder if that was something that was fraught from the beginning or if it was a situation that was actually working quite well until, you know, Witkoff sort of started to seed ground with Russia so.
- [43:20]
Dexter Filkins
Much I think it's fraud. I mean, Wyckoff does what he wants. He flies around in his own plane. He doesn't really bring any staff with him. Sometimes his girlfriend travels with him. And, you know, again, he flew off to Russia and came back with a 28 point plan that was basically Putin's wish list and handed it to the President. And Rubio, I think, successfully kind of beat that back. And that's kind of. We're in the middle of that right now. And so. So that is a. You know, it's not openly contentious, but I think they're completely across purposes to one another.
- [43:52]
Tyler Foggatt
And do you think, like, I guess, like there's a certain amount of Rubio and other people in the administration having to sort of play ball with Trump's vision of the world, but do you think that people like Rubio are kind of starting to come around and not just go along with these things because they have to, but because they also have started to think that there is something kind of great about the US Dominating the Western Hemisphere? I mean, how deep is the buy in among Rubio, among other people in the administration who we tend to think of as the more serious people around? I guess I just wonder how much of this is kind of Trump acting alone and everyone feeling like they have to follow along versus an entire cabinet that has bought into this kind of horrifying vision.
- [44:41]
Dexter Filkins
It's funny, when I was, like, just out of college, I worked for a politician briefly, and I remember I was kind of looking at all the kind of ribbons on his wall and the trophies and the photos, and I remember I said, you know, I was like 19 or something, and I said to the press secretary, I said, does he believe this? Does he believe all this? And the press secretary said to me, he believes what he needs to believe. I think I've never forgotten that they believe what they need to believe. But I think in the case of Venezuela, this is not what Marco Rubio spent his entire career advocating, very articulately advocating, which is, these are great countries. They should be our allies, they should be our friends, they should be great democracies. And that's what Margaret Rubio has always wanted, and that is not what this military operation gave us. And so. So all I can think is that Rubio, as on so many other issues, has had to swallow really hard, or as somebody said in the piece to me, a British diplomat, he's had to swallow a lot of shit.
- [45:52]
Tyler Foggatt
And I guess after all that shit swallowing, if he does decide to run in 2028, how do you see that working? Or what kind of candidate do you think he would try to frame himself as? I guess I wonder about him trying to differentiate his version of Trumpism with that of J.D. vance's, or whether we actually should expect him to kind of abandon some of his Trumpy tendencies, since it seems like he adopted those pretty cynically to begin with.
- [46:21]
Dexter Filkins
Well, I think if you look at him in Vance, they're very different. I mean, in fact. In fact, he and Vance represent, I think, inside the White House, the two opposing camps on foreign policy. Right. Which I think in his heart, wherever it is, Rubio believes in kind of American global leadership, that we are the leaders of the west and the democracies in the free world. And that really matters to him, and it matters that America's the world's leader. And. And I don't think Vance believes any of that. I mean, Vance has been very clear about that. You know, like, I don't, you know, remember Vance said, like, I don't care about what happens to Ukraine one way or another, that kind of thing. And so they're poles apart. So in that sense, it's like. It's very, very interesting. You can see them kind of lining up against one another. But I think, you know, ultimately, this. The 2028 election is. It's not gonna. Almost certainly will not be about foreign policy, to be about domestic policy, and it'll be about America and about the American economy and about. And so I think it'll be more complicated than that. But I think Rubio's got the Trump T shirt on, and that's like sink or swim. So either he's gonna get elected on that or he's gonna sink on that. And so we just don't know yet.
- [47:36]
Tyler Foggatt
Do you think Trump likes Rubio more than Vance?
- [47:39]
Dexter Filkins
Somebody told me he did. Someone said to me that, if you remember, after Vance got picked as vice president, I think he had a couple of stumbles. You know, he had. He said some things that he regretted. And Trump said to a lawyer, I know. God, you know, maybe I should have. You know, maybe I should have picked Marco. You know, and so he. But he likes him. Like somebody more than a couple people said he likes him. But. But somebody said to me, you know, it's like Marco loves, You know, like, Marco always wanted to be a football player. He's like an athlete. And he, like, comes in, he sees Trump, and he. They talk about sports and, like, sports trivia and, like, Marco has, like, kind of encycloped of sports trivia, and he's like a guy's guy. And that's what this lawyer said to me. And that makes total sense to me. And so, yeah, and I think. And, you know, JD's, you know, JD's complicated. You know, he's like, you know, he's like a hillbilly, and he went to Yale, and it's just, you know, Marco's. Marco's a guy's guy. And I think Trump likes that.
- [48:37]
Tyler Foggatt
Marco's a guy's guy. Thank you so much, Dexter. I really appreciate it. Appreciate you taking the time.
- [48:46]
Dexter Filkins
Thanks, Tyler.
- [48:52]
Tyler Foggatt
Dexter Filkins is a staff writer for the New Yorker. You can find his profile of Marco rubio@newyorker.com this has been the political Scene from the New Yorker. I'm Tyler Foggit. This episode is produced by John Lemay with mixing by Mike Kutchman and engineering by Pran Bandy. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next Wednesday.
- [49:31]
Dexter Filkins
From prx.