The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Isaac Chotiner Sums Up Politics in 2025

Release Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Tyler Foggatt
Guest: Isaac Chotiner
Summary by Section

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tyler Foggatt speaks with Isaac Chotiner, a staff writer at The New Yorker renowned for his sharp and sometimes provocative interviews with political figures and experts. The conversation offers a retrospective on some of Chotiner’s most significant interviews in 2025, covering themes of political violence in the U.S., Donald Trump’s second term and governing style, high-profile political interviews, and the intellectual debates over liberalism. The conversation is candid, incisive, and reflective of the tensions and uncertainties defining American politics in 2025.

Chotiner’s Interview Philosophy

[00:11–01:45]

• Isaac Chotiner explains his multifaceted goals as an interviewer:
  • Sometimes he aims to provide context or a fresh take on issues.
  • Sometimes he digs deep into subjects he struggles to understand, hoping to clarify for himself and his readers.
  • At times, he tries to focus on underreported topics or, alternatively, deliver lighter, more entertaining pieces.
  • Quote:

    “It’s sometimes trying to understand breaking news… sometimes trying to laser focus on an issue… sometimes is to try and highlight something that I don’t think is getting enough attention. And I think hopefully sometimes is to do interviews that are lighter and, dare I say, even fun or interesting to readers in a lighthearted manner.” (Isaac Chotiner, 00:29)

The Rising Tide of Political Violence

[01:46–09:17]

Key Incidents in 2025

• Tyler Foggatt introduces the year’s major acts of political violence, including:
  • The cybertruck bombing outside a Trump hotel in Las Vegas.
  • The assassination of Charlie Kirk in September.
  • Attacks on Democratic state lawmakers in Minnesota.

Chotiner’s Insights

• Chotiner recounts interviewing political scientist Liliana Mason, who emphasized the dehumanizing language increasingly used by partisans and the connection to broader climates of rage:
  • Quote:

    “There is increasing dislike among the parties and people who follow the parties… there’s a climate… of so much rage that may broadly contribute to political violence… what’s truly scary… is someone using the power of the state to crack down… when political violence becomes state violence.” (Isaac Chotiner, 03:41)

• He distinguishes between random partisan violence and the potential threat of state-sanctioned violence.

Prevalence & Roots of Violence

• There is a consensus that political violence is increasing, but definitions are slippery.
• Chotiner expresses frustration that discussions rarely address American gun policy, which, in his view, is central to the issue.
  • Quote:

    “Fundamentally nothing is really going to happen with guns in America, which is obviously how so much of political violence manifests itself.” (05:47)

Comparison to Other Democracies

• Foggatt mentions Australia’s rapid response to a mass shooting, contrasting it with U.S. inaction:
  • Chotiner responds:

    “It’s almost like a waste of time even discussing it here just because it’s so far from reality or plausibility.” (07:21)

The Polling Dilemma

• Chotiner critiques the way polling around polarization is discussed, pointing out that mistrust between parties isn’t always symmetrical:
  • Quote:

    “What’s worth bemoaning is that 80% of Republicans think that Democrats will not respect the results of the next election… that reflects a distortion of reality. And I feel like frequently… that sort of fundamental reality is not sort of talked about enough.” (07:51)

Trump’s Policies, Tariffs, and a New Governing Style

[10:08–18:27]

The Challenges of Covering Trump

• Chotiner discusses his interview with John Werner Mueller about how to interpret Trump’s use of tariffs.
• He argues that it’s challenging to discuss Trump’s policies in the same terms we might use for previous presidents:
  • Quote:

    “The sense among people in the past… was that they were pursuing some version of the national interest… with Trump, tariffs are a way of him seeking more power in economic decisions… which… may benefit him personally… you do not want to seem naive about what’s going on.” (10:51)

The Dilemma of Speculation

• Chotiner reflects on how hard it is for journalists to distinguish between personal gain and national interest under Trump, using a story about U.S.–India–Pakistan relations under Trump as an example.
  • The challenge: “You don’t want to… basically peddle conspiracy theories about what the president is profiting from… but you do not want to seem naive.” (13:03)

Academics vs. Practitioners

• Foggatt and Chotiner discuss the tension between assessing Trump’s policies on their own terms (as academics might) versus confronting the likelihood that many decisions are whim- or self-interest-driven.
• Many journalists still use the language and frameworks of normal politics, even though the situation is unprecedented.
  • Quote:

    “It just often seems that the tone of those stories is still sort of acting as if things are more normal than they are… it just feels laughable to me.” (14:52)

Taking Trump "Too Seriously" vs. "Not Seriously Enough"

• Both Foggatt and Chotiner wrestle with the ongoing media dilemma:
  • When to treat Trump’s moves as meaningful policy and when to dismiss them as theatrical or idiosyncratic.
• Unexpected episodes, such as Trump’s pressuring of Netanyahu, show both his unpredictability and occasional efficacy; Chotiner notes the lack of follow-through and questions long-term significance:
  • Quote:

    “If he has in his mind that he wants a Nobel Peace Prize, he’s certainly capable of calling Netanyahu and telling him to knock it off… The motives… may be unclear, but absolutely. I just don’t know how, in the larger arc of history, how important that part of Trump is going to seem.” (16:50)

Notable Interviews & Viral Moments

[19:57–26:47]

The Karine Jean Pierre Interview

• Chotiner’s interview with the former Biden White House press secretary went viral.
• Jean Pierre left the Democratic Party on the grounds that the party was too mean to Joe Biden—a rationale Chotiner found baffling.
  • Quote:

    “It was funny because, you know… normally when someone leaves a party… the party had moved too far to the left or too far to the right… This was not really that. In fact… her views are pretty far left, and she was leaving the party because of how it treated Joe Biden.” (20:46)

• Their conversation about her support for Kamala Harris versus her own doubts about Harris’s electability revealed contradictions in her public arguments and memoir.

On Press Professionals and Public Confusion

• Chotiner notes that it’s not uncommon to find muddled thinking in interviews—even among professional communicators:

  • “There were just obvious contradictions in the book… Many of [Biden’s former staffers] seem to be still quite angry and irritated with the way he was treated… I thought that would have disappeared by now.” (23:51)

• Personal loyalty to Biden, Chotiner observes, often eclipses broader questions of governance and the public good.

  • Quote:

    “I was shocked that she was so focused on what was offensive to Joe Biden… The centrality of his feelings… loomed so large in a way that felt, frankly, bizarre to me.” (25:37)

Liberalism, Conservatism, and Friendship with Henry Kissinger

[26:47–33:54]

Chotiner’s Discussion with Cass Sunstein

• Chotiner interviewed legal scholar Cass Sunstein about his capacious definition of liberalism:
  • Sunstein includes many mainstream conservatives within the “liberal” tent, excluding only Trump or Trumpist figures.
  • Chotiner questions how this fits with the observed political reality:

    “If they were so truly liberal, how did it get to this… that the party itself was able to be taken over by a person like Donald Trump?” (27:06)

The Kissinger Question

• Chotiner raises Sunstein’s friendship with Henry Kissinger to probe a longstanding left critique of liberalism: that liberal values rarely extend beyond U.S. borders, as epitomized by Kissinger’s foreign policy.

  • Quote:

    “One problem… with liberalism… is that there’s a standard about liberalism in the U.S. that… does not extend outside of the United States… Kissinger feels like a very good example of that, of someone who had no respect for people in other countries… pursued policies that treated them as less than worthless.” (29:03)

• Sunstein’s defense was primarily personal—Kissinger was “a good friend” and had come to his Star Wars book launch.

• Chotiner suggests this is emblematic of the tendency to value personal relationships or reputation over moral/political implications.

  • “Friendship is important, and you can have friends with different political views, but I don’t really think you should be friends with someone who, you know, illegally bombed Cambodia and so on.” (30:28)

• The Kissinger exchange led to a memorable, humorous rejoinder from Chotiner:

  • Tyler Foggatt:

    “The next time someone brings up a terrible anecdote about Cambodia or Vietnam, I will definitely bring out the Star Wars story to show that people have two sides.” (31:05)

The Dynamics of the Hard Interview

• On whether subjects realize when an interview isn’t going well for them:
  • “I don’t think that very often people think an interview is not going well for them… People just have really different perspectives, and an interview can read very differently.” (32:00)
• Chotiner prefers to keep conversations light and human, even when combative or contentious.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s almost like a waste of time even discussing [gun control] here just because it’s so far from reality or plausibility.” (Isaac Chotiner, 07:21)
• “You don’t want to… basically peddle conspiracy theories about what the president is profiting from… but you do not want to seem naive.” (Isaac Chotiner, 13:03)
• “[She] was so focused on what was offensive to Joe Biden… the centrality of his feelings… loomed so large in a way that felt, frankly, bizarre to me.” (Isaac Chotiner, 25:37)
• “Friendship is important…but I don’t really think you should be friends with someone who, you know, illegally bombed Cambodia…” (Isaac Chotiner, 30:28)
• “The next time someone brings up a terrible anecdote about Cambodia or Vietnam, I will definitely bring out the Star Wars story to show that people have two sides.” (Chotiner, joking with Sunstein, as recalled by Foggatt, 31:05)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Chotiner on interview goals: 00:11–01:45
• Political violence and Liliana Mason: 03:41–09:17
• Trump, tariffs, and the problem of interpretation: 10:08–16:50
• Unexpected efficacy of Trump in foreign policy: 16:50–18:27
• Karine Jean Pierre viral interview: 19:57–26:47
• Cass Sunstein, liberalism, and Kissinger: 26:47–33:54
• On interview dynamics and “bombing”: 32:00–33:54

Tone and Style

The tone throughout is frank, intellectually restless, and often subtly humorous. Both interviewers and interviewees display a willingness to admit confusion, frustration, or uncertainty—an approach that feels appropriate to the tangled state of American and global politics in 2025.

Conclusion

This episode encapsulates the complexity, confusion, and unresolved tension at the heart of contemporary politics. Chotiner’s interviews—and his reflections on them—cut through official narratives, revealing the personal foibles, ideological contradictions, and institutional weaknesses of the current era. For listeners seeking an unvarnished, thoughtful exploration of U.S. politics’ recent upheavals, this episode is essential.