Podcast Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Israel on the Brink
Air Date: April 10, 2023
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Ruth Margalit (journalist, The New Yorker), Avishai Margalit (professor emeritus of philosophy, Hebrew University of Jerusalem)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the dramatic political crisis in Israel prompted by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing government and its controversial push for "judicial reform." The host, David Remnick, explores whether democracy itself is at risk in Israel, drawing on the expertise and personal insights of journalist Ruth Margalit and her father, philosopher Avishai Margalit. Together, they unpack the motivations, social fissures, and stakes behind the crisis, connecting present-day events to broader historical and political trends.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: Netanyahu’s Return and Democratic Peril

• Remnick recalls profiling Netanyahu 25 years ago, noting his shift from Reagan-inspired pragmatism to hardline tactics, and highlighting the shock that, decades later, democracy itself seems threatened (01:25).
• The push for "judicial reform" is actually a fundamental attempt to diminish checks and balances, raising fears of an autocratic turn resembling Hungary or Poland.

2. Judicial Reform Explained (03:01–05:09)

• Ruth Margalit: The government, the most ultra-orthodox and ultra-nationalist in Israel’s history, moved quickly to propose reforms that would eliminate checks on executive power, specifically by letting the coalition government control Supreme Court appointments.
• Quote:
  “[The reform] would...limit and weaken the Supreme Court and make the government basically be able to do whatever it wants... The big fight now is over judicial appointments.” (04:10 – Ruth Margalit)

3. Religion, Nationalism, and Demographics (05:09–08:35)

• Avishai Margalit: The fusion of religion and nationalism, a departure from secular Zionism, drives current politics. Religious parties, formerly anti-Zionist, have become nationalist and central coalition partners.

• Demographic trends favor conservative, nationalist, and religious communities with higher birth rates and less emigration compared to more cosmopolitan, secular urbanites.

• Quote:
  “What takes place now is this explosive fusion of nationalism and religion... Now [religion] makes a bid on the public space.” (05:45 – Avishai Margalit)

• Avishai also attributes growing political rifts to overlapping class, ethnic, and cultural fault lines—“the difference is between the globalizable Israel and the unglobalizable Israel…” (07:41).

4. Who’s Protesting and Why? (08:35–10:52)

• Ruth Margalit: Demonstrations have lasted 13 weeks, drawing a cross-section of society—from secular, young Tel Avivians to religious Israelis and people in settlements. Leadership intentionally downplays anti-occupation activism to maximize broad appeal, focusing on democracy as the unifying theme.

5. Netanyahu’s Political Evolution (10:52–14:06)

• Avishai Margalit: Netanyahu, once a skillful and pragmatic leader, is now cornered on the far right, with no space to maneuver politically, largely due to his dependency on extreme coalition partners and personal legal troubles.

• Quote:
  “It's the first time...that he is pushed to be in the extreme right and no one is to the right of him, probably Genghis Khan… He lost his capability to maneuver and therefore...can be blackmailed anytime...He behaved in a Trump-like way, namely to break the legal framework of Israel so that he will be saved.” (11:40–13:42 – Avishai Margalit)

6. Is This Crisis All About Netanyahu’s Legal Troubles? (14:06–15:56)

• Ruth Margalit: The current turmoil is closely tied to Netanyahu’s personal indictment on corruption charges; the judicial reforms would serve to secure his political survival.
• Quote:
  “...we now have a country that is really going through all this upheaval because of one man's trial.” (14:41 – Ruth Margalit)

7. Comparisons to Hungary and Poland (15:56–17:35)

• Civil society draws lessons from Hungarian and Polish protesters: legislative suspensions are often used to deflate movements before reforms are pushed through.
• Quote:
  “Don’t be fooled by this suspension. The same thing happened in Poland...which is why the protests haven’t quieted.” (16:34 – Ruth Margalit)

8. The Palestinian Question and Double Standards (19:36–21:19)

• Avishai Margalit: The debate over democracy in Israel has always been complicated by the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza; Israel maintains different regimes inside the Green Line and in the territories. The current crisis concerns democracy within pre-1967 Israel, but the foundational questions remain unresolved.

9. Why the Left Dwindled (21:19–23:45)

• Avishai: The Labour Party lost power as its institutional roots eroded and its constituency became more bourgeois, mirroring the decline of social democracy elsewhere. Populism has replaced it.

10. Palestinian Issue and The Protest Movement’s Reach (23:45–25:21)

• Ruth Margalit: The protest movement’s future depends on whether it can encompass the Palestinian issue, not just Israeli democracy.
• Quote:
  “...if there is this element of defiance...then this could be a value that’s being fought over—equality and the end to the occupation, bringing liberties to the Palestinian people.” (24:48 – Ruth Margalit)

11. Chances for Political Realignment (25:21–26:34)

• Ruth Margalit: The movement might inspire realignment around core democratic values, not simply old left-right divisions.

12. US-Israel Relations and Growing Tensions (26:34–28:55)

• Remnick: Biden’s warnings and Netanyahu’s shift away from bipartisan ties in the US signal a rift; Netanyahu's alignment with Republicans and evangelicals undermines traditional support.
• Ruth Margalit: For the first time, Netanyahu’s unruly cabinet undermines his control and signals Israel’s vulnerability without US backing.

13. Personal Reflections Amid Crisis (28:55–32:44)

• Avishai Margalit: Despite nostalgia for Israel’s founding ideals, he still has hope resistance will succeed.

  • Quote:
    “We are now standing at a juncture...I think we have a fair chance of resisting the move in the wrong direction. But as Yogi Berra said, when you come to a juncture, take it.” (29:22)

• Ruth Margalit: Despite friends considering emigration, she remains committed to Israel, energized by civic engagement and a renewed belief in fighting for the country’s democratic character.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “What he, in fact proposes would, in effect, get rid of any checks and balance in the country... The big fight now is over judicial appointments.”
  — Ruth Margalit, (04:10)

• “What takes place now is this explosive fusion of nationalism and religion. And this has all the layers... It's politics, it's everything.”
  — Avishai Margalit, (05:45)

• “Always keeping a faction on the left and a faction on the right. It's the first time...he is pushed to be in the extreme right and no one is to the right of him, probably Genghis Khan.”
  — Avishai Margalit, (11:48)

• “I do think we now have a country that is really going through all this upheaval because of one man's trial.”
  — Ruth Margalit, (14:41)

• “Don’t be fooled by this suspension. The same thing happened in Poland...which is why the protests haven’t quieted.”
  — Ruth Margalit, (16:34)

• “The issue was, can Israel have this double phase, being a democracy within the Green Line and running a mixture of a military occupation, colonial ruling and even an apartheid... Now the issue is about democracy within the Green Line. That's the new element.”
  — Avishai Margalit, (19:54)

• “...if there is this element of defiance...then this could be a value that's being fought over, you know, equality and the end to the occupation, bringing liberties to the Palestinian people.”
  — Ruth Margalit, (24:48)

• “We are now standing in a juncture... I think we have a fair chance of resisting the move in the wrong direction. But as Yogi Berra said, when you come to a juncture, take it.”
  — Avishai Margalit, (29:22)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Netanyahu’s Profile and Political Shift (01:25–03:01)
• Judicial Reform: What’s at Stake (03:01–05:09)
• Religion and Nationalism’s New Role (05:09–08:35)
• Demonstration Demographics & Unity (08:35–10:52)
• Netanyahu's Evolution & Legal Motives (10:52–15:56)
• Comparisons to Other 'Illiberal' Democracies (15:56–17:35)
• Palestinian Question, Democracy’s Double Standard (19:36–21:19)
• Decline of the Israeli Left (21:19–23:45)
• Potential for Change & Realignment (25:21–26:34)
• US-Israel Relationship Breakdown (26:34–28:55)
• Personal and Societal Reflections (28:55–32:44)

Tone & Language

• Analytical, candid, and occasionally personal and emotional.
• Both guests and host combine deep expertise with grounded, sometimes wry reflections.
• Direct, sometimes skeptical about future outcomes, but laced with hope for a civic awakening.

Conclusion

This episode offers an essential, nuanced analysis of Israel’s current democratic crisis and its roots in larger historical, social, and personal currents. Margalit père et fille provide expert commentary and lived perspective, connecting Israel’s fate to global trends and the enduring challenge of safeguarding democracy.