Jake Sullivan Talks to David Remnick About Clinton and Putin

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: Jake Sullivan Talks to David Remnick About Clinton and Putin
Date: August 22, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Jake Sullivan (Senior Policy Advisor to Hillary Clinton, former Deputy Chief of Staff when she was Secretary of State)

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Overview

This episode features a timely and candid discussion with Jake Sullivan, Hillary Clinton’s top foreign policy advisor during the 2016 US presidential campaign. David Remnick presses Sullivan on the state of US-Russia relations, the legacy and failure of the Obama administration’s “reset” with Russia, the personal and political dynamics between Clinton and Vladimir Putin, and the unprecedented Russian cyber-interference in the 2016 election.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Deterioration of US-Russia Relations

• Remnick provides historical context on Putin's strengthening grip on Russia and growing willingness to confront the West (01:32-02:33).

• Sullivan asserts the relationship is fundamentally adversarial but argues that productive cooperation on key international issues (e.g., arms reduction, Iran nuclear deal) is still possible (03:03).

  "I think it's going to be a challenging relationship because Putin has made fundamentally clear where he stands on a number of issues that are adverse to the United States."
  – Jake Sullivan (03:03)

2. Is This a New Cold War?

• Sullivan rejects equating current tensions with the Cold War, pointing to recent successful US-Russian collaboration (03:45).

  "Just last year, the United States and Russia worked together to produce the agreement with Iran that has put a lid on Iran's nuclear program. So we are clearly capable of continuing to work with them."
  – Jake Sullivan (03:45)

3. Russian & American Interventions: False Equivalence?

• Remnick/Russian perspective: US has also violated sovereignty (e.g. Iraq, Libya).

• Sullivan argues these are “debaters’ points and false equivalences,” emphasizing differences in motives and methods (04:14-05:28).

  "He loves to compare Kosovo to Crimea and Ukraine... On a number of different dimensions they are not at all comparable..."
  – Jake Sullivan (04:41)

4. Putin’s Hybrid Warfare: Asymmetric Influence, Not Just Tanks

• Sullivan sees the main threat not as direct military assault but as Russia’s “insidious exercise of malign influence” over democracies through corruption, economic pressure, and subversion (06:10).

  "The thing that really worries me... is not so much tanks rolling across a frontier as the insidious exercise of malign influence... That’s an asymmetric form of low grade warfare that I think the United States and our allies need to get used to seeing from Russia."
  – Jake Sullivan (06:10)

5. Russian Interference in the 2016 Election

• Discussion of the DNC hack: Sullivan refuses to speculate on Russian motives but lists facts – Russian involvement is widely accepted, and Trump’s platform closely tracks Putin’s interests (07:44-08:24).

• Concrete examples: weakening support for NATO, lifting Russia sanctions, changing GOP platform on Ukraine, excusing Russian abuses (08:24-09:28).

  "The Trump campaign’s policy agenda on a wide range of foreign policy matters lines up very neatly with Vladimir Putin’s wish list..."
  – Jake Sullivan (07:44)

6. Clinton-Putin Dynamic

• Rumors of hostile, personal animosity between Clinton and Putin are overstated. Sullivan describes their interactions as tough but direct, noting they could cooperate productively on issues like Iran and wildlife trafficking (09:35-10:36).

  "It's not a nasty atmosphere. I think it's an atmosphere that is tough and direct, but not nasty. They were able to have practical and productive conversations..."
  – Jake Sullivan (09:35)

7. Fear of More Russian ‘Kompromat’ and Cyberattacks During the Campaign

• Sullivan warns it would be “folly” to assume Russia won’t escalate—more leaks may come, elevating this to a pressing national security issue that transcends partisanship (11:05).

  "...whether you're a Democrat, a Republican, or an Independent, that should absolutely motivate you to say, what the heck are we going to do as the United States of America to push back against a foreign power...interfering in the basic institution of democracy in the United States?"
  – Jake Sullivan (11:05)

8. End of Privacy for Governments and Campaigns

• Both the host and Sullivan reflect on the end of normal operational secrecy: with today’s technology (e.g., smartphones, ubiquitous surveillance), discretion is virtually impossible outside secured settings (12:40-13:07).

• Sullivan directly affirms that his own communications habits changed—he now avoids substantive topics over email or phone due to surveillance fears (13:19).

  “At this point, you cannot use email as a means of communicating anything of really meaningful substance, classified or otherwise.”
  – Jake Sullivan (13:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the precarious state of US-Russian relations:

  "I think it's going to be a challenging relationship..." (Jake Sullivan, 03:03)

• On Russian ‘false equivalence’ arguments:

  "These are debater’s points and false equivalences..." (Jake Sullivan, 04:41)

• On the threat of Russian hybrid warfare:

  "...insidious exercise of malign influence... an asymmetric form of low grade warfare..." (Jake Sullivan, 06:10)

• On the gravity of Russian cyberinterference:

  "That is a national security issue." (Jake Sullivan, 11:05)

• On adapting to a new era of surveillance:

  "At this point, you cannot use email as a means of communicating anything of really meaningful substance..." (Jake Sullivan, 13:21)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:32 — Introduction of Vladimir Putin’s recent actions and global implications
• 03:03 — Sullivan on the “reset,” future of US-Russia relations
• 04:41 — Sullivan rebuts Russian critiques of US interventions
• 06:10 — Discussion of Russia’s “asymmetric” subversion of democracies
• 07:44 — Russian hacking of DNC, motives, and Trump campaign alignment
• 09:35 — Clinton-Putin personal relationship
• 11:05 — Fear of future Russian cyber-operations in the campaign
• 12:40 — The new normal: surveillance and loss of discretion
• 13:19 — How national security officials have changed their own communication habits

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Conclusion

Jake Sullivan frames Hillary Clinton’s approach to Russia as one of pragmatic realism—open to cooperation but clear-eyed about the adversarial intentions of Putin. The discussion highlights the evolution of Russia’s threat from tanks to cyber and political subversion, the extraordinary gravity of outside interference in US democracy, and the transformation of privacy and secrecy in the age of digital surveillance. Sullivan’s responses blend policy defense with sober warnings about the future of global politics and cybersecurity.

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Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, David Remnick talks to Jake Sullivan, the top foreign policy advisor to the Clinton campaign. Sullivan discusses how Clinton would deal with the threats posed by Putin.

[David Remnick]

Now, over the last decade, Vladimir Putin has gained seemingly unshakable support in Russia, partly because he's completely closed the press and partly because of his willingness to challenge the United States and Europe. He invaded Ukraine and Georgia, former Soviet republics. He sent bombers to intervene in the.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Syrian civil war on behalf of the.

[David Remnick]

Assad regime and and he likely okayed the killing on British soil of a former KGB agent. And then, of course, there was the hack of the Democratic National Committee emails, very probably the work of a Russian hacker or hackers. Not since the Cold War has a US Election centered so much on the question of how to handle Russia and its political ambitions. Trying to sort this through, I sat down with Hillary Clinton's top policy advisor, Jim Jake Sullivan. Sullivan was deputy chief of Clinton's staff when she was Secretary of State, and he was Vice President Biden's national Security adviser.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

There was a moment during the Obama administration with Secretary Clinton on airplanes going back and forth to Moscow and to other nations in Europe. That was called the reset. And the relationship has completely soured. Do you think that under a. A Clinton administration, a Hillary Clinton administration, it would be possible to reset again? Or is that relationship really, for the foreseeable future, going to be adversarial and a kind of maintenance to keep that at a low burn?

[Jake Sullivan]

I think it's going to be a challenging relationship because Putin has made fundamentally clear where he stands on a number of issues that are adverse to the United States. On the other hand, Secretary Clinton, if she's elected president, is going to continue to look for opportunities to cooperate. She was involved in getting the nuclear treaty through that reduced US And Russian stockpiles to their lowest level in decades. She was involved in working with the Russians on Iran and North Korea sanctions, in getting the Russians to agree to allow lethal transit of supplies to our troops in Afghanistan, and, of course, in the accession of Russia to the wto. So she's not shelving the concept that there are places where the United States and Russia can work together.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Do you think we're in a new Cold War right now?

[Jake Sullivan]

No. Just last year, the United States and Russia worked together to produce the agreement with Iran that has put a lid on Iran's nuclear program. So we are clearly capable of continuing to work with them. But do I believe that we are in a challenging space where Russia is going after some of the core basic principles of international law, Invading sovereign countries, threatening our allies.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

But they look at us and they.

[David Remnick]

Say, wait a minute.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

They say, you are absolute hypocrites. The United States. You have invaded Iraq and made a mess of the Middle East. You have invaded all kinds of countries over the years, whether it's in the Balkans or Libya, which we quote, unquote, told you not to do. How do we go about lecturing Vladimir Putin when it comes to the sovereignty of other countries? And that's the Russian psychology, and that's.

[Jake Sullivan]

Certainly Putin's psychology, and he has laid that out at length. How do you answer his speech? I think these are debaters points and false equivalences. He loves to compare Kosovo to Crimea and Ukraine, and on a number of different dimensions, they are not at all comparable, starting with the fact that his asserted reason for going into Crimea in the first place, that the Crimean people were somehow going to be subject to gross and systematic human rights violations, is a bunch of nonsense. So what Putin does is he points to circumstances where the United States has engaged in interventions primarily for humanitarian reasons, primarily with many other countries joining us, and then tries to say, I'm just doing the same thing. But a close examination of those circumstances shows just how different they are.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

But he would argue that those invasions have caused untold chaos and geopolitical problems in their wake.

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, there's no doubt that the invasion of Iraq was ultimately a mistake and caused tremendous damage and tremendous problems, and the United States needs to take responsibility for that. But the US Taking responsibility for what happened in Iraq does not excuse Vladimir Putin's destabilizing actions in Ukraine. Nor does it excuse the saber rattling and the incredibly aggressive behavior he's displaying towards our allies.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

What are you concerned about next coming from Vladimir Putin? Where do you suppose that he will make his next moves, whether it's in Ukraine again, whether it's in the Baltic states, where I think we do have.

[Jake Sullivan]

To worry about direct assaults on NATO allies he's shown with his various instruments, military power, that's a poss. But the thing that really worries me in the immediate term is actually not so much tanks rolling across a frontier as the insidious exercise of malign influence over democracies in eastern and emerging democracies in southeastern Europe. The use of corruption, the use of political pressure, the use of economic pressure to try to stunt democratic development and undermine and destabilize countries on his border. That's an asymmetric form of low grade warfare that I think the United States and our allies need to get used to seeing from Russia and need to be prepared to deal with.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

One of the most incredible parts of maybe the most incredible campaign of my lifetime or yours, is the Russian element that is taking place in the presidential campaign. To see emails, in fact, some of your own emails to Secretary Clinton and vice versa, and emails going back to you that have been hacked, almost certainly by Russian hackers, either doing the bidding of Vladimir Putin or with the winking acknowledgement of Vladimir Putin. Tell me what your view and Secretary Clinton's view is of why he's doing this. Is it just a way to mess with us? Is it personal? Is it strategic? What is it?

[Jake Sullivan]

The stakes on this issue are so high. The fact that Russia and Russian intelligence agencies are acting meddling in this election, the stakes of that are so high that I really think it is inappropriate to speculate as to motive. All we can state are the facts, and these are the facts that we know. We know, number one, that there is now a consensus of experts that the Russians have done this. We know, number Two, that the Trump campaign's policy agenda on a wide range of foreign policy matters lines up very neatly with Vladimir Putin's wish list for what an American president would do on Russia.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

We should make clear what that wish list is. How do they line up?

[Jake Sullivan]

Number one, that we wouldn't necessarily back up our NATO allies in the event of a Russian invasion. Number two, that we should consider lifting sanctions on Russia. Number three, that Trump campaign officials actually intervened in the Republican platform to remove references to support for Ukraine. Number four, a total excusing of anti democratic behavior in Russia and waving away things as egregious as the killing of journalists, using Vladimir Putin's own logic that, well, the United States has its own problem, so why are we lecturing other countries? Those are just some of the examples of where the Trump campaign and Trump himself have gone out and basically adopted not just the position, but the logic and the rhetoric of Vladimir Putin. So we know that. We also know that Hillary Clinton has, on a number of occasions over the last several years and in this campaign, stood up to and countered some of those positions, been against Putin on certain things. And so to the point where, as.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

I understand it, Jake, that when they're in the same room together, it's a very nasty atmosphere. Can you speak to that?

[Jake Sullivan]

It's not a nasty atmosphere. I think it's an atmosphere that is tough and direct, but not nasty. They were able to have practical and productive conversations when they met about sanctions on Iran and North Korea. He even talked about issues kind of far beyond traditional statecraft, what to do, for example, about wildlife trafficking. So it's not like Hillary Clinton and Vladimir Putin can't sit down.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

But wait a minute. I've heard about a certain meeting between the two of them when they were in the same room when Putin would barely look at Hillary Clinton.

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, the times that I've been in the room with the two of them, not only were they looking at each other, but they were speaking very plainly and directly. And Hillary Clinton was saying to Putin at the time, there are areas where we can cooperate, but there are areas where I need to tell you and look you in the eye and tell you the United States is not going to support what you are doing. Putin was just as direct and candid in response. I did not find a circumstance where it was either nasty or where they didn't have the capacity to work together with one another.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Do you think this business of hacked emails is going to go farther? There has been a long history in Russian politics of what's called Kompromat, compromising information, films of people in their private lives, sometimes having sex, sometimes doing smoking, dope or whatever it is. This is very, very common in the Russian political sphere. Do you assume and fear that in the coming couple of months of the campaign that more is coming?

[Jake Sullivan]

Given Russia's track record and Putin's track record, it would be folly to assume that there isn't more that they would try to do to disrupt the election, more emails that they would put out. So I think we have to proceed on the assumption that that is very possibly going to happen. I would just say that whether you're a Democrat, a Republican, or an Independent, that should absolutely motivate you to say, what the heck are we going to do as the United States of America to push back against a foreign power, and oftentimes adversarial foreign power, interfering in the basic institution of democracy in the United States? That is a national security issue.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

It is something new under the sun. We assumed that to a great extent, they bug our conversations, and let's face it, we bug a lot of theirs. There's a great record of our knowledge of conversations that have taken place inside the Kremlin, in the cars of Russian and formerly Soviet officials. Let's not be naive about this. We're here sitting in a studio. You've got an iPhone on the desk, which is also a tracking device, a camera, a movie camera, a recorder. I think anybody who's not naive knows what that implies in terms of its intelligence capacities. How are governments going to ever assume, with any sense of confidence, much less political campaigns, that they can operate with any sense of discretion and secrecy?

[Jake Sullivan]

I think that's becoming increasingly more difficult, not just because of the seals that Russia is breaking, but also because of things like WikiLeaks and other developments that make the exchange of emails, phone conversations. You sort of have to increasingly assume that everything you do outside of a secured facility could easily end up in the public domain.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

You're somebody who's been mentioned any number of times as the national security adviser for Hillary Clinton. We'll see if that happens. But has your style of conversing over email changed?

[Jake Sullivan]

Yes, most of the way.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

In which way?

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, at this point, you cannot use email as a means of communicating anything of really meaningful substance, classified or otherwise.

[David Remnick]

At what point did it change?

[Jake Sullivan]

I think it developed over the course of my time in government, and certainly since we have seen what has happened with both WikiLeaks and now increasingly with what the Russians are doing every passing year, I become more and more terse and careful in the use of email, but not just email, the use of the telephone as well. And, you know, I think there's an unfortunate dimension to this because the freedom to be able to exchange ideas, discuss matters across great distances. A US Government that's in hundreds of posts around the world has been compromised to a significant extent. And the result of that is that it is more difficult to actually conduct business for the US Government than it was before. But that's the nature of operating in the information environment we're in now.

[Interviewer (Dorothy Wickenden or Moderator)]

Jacob Sullivan, thank you very much.

[Jake Sullivan]

Thank you.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was Jake Sullivan talking with David Remnick.

[Katie Drummond]

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[Michael Calore]

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

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