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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Jeff Zucker Talks to David Remnick About Putting Trump on TV
00:18:33
Jeff Zucker Talks to David Remnick About Putting Trump on TV
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:34]
B
So we'll begin with Jeff Zucker, who's the president of CNN. When Zucker came to the network in 2013, it was totally adrift. With primetime viewing at its lowest in two decades. The savior of the network was Donald Trump. Despite purveying nothing but fake news in the assessment of our now president, CNN this spring had its best rating in 14 years. And the strange irony in all of this is that CNN's Jeff Zucker helped to make Donald Trump. Zucker was formerly at NBC for 25 years, eventually becoming its CEO. And while he was there, he was the one who greenlit the Apprentice. Jeff, you've known Donald Trump for about 15 years, and certainly as a TV presence, you had a large hand in making him. What did you have in mind?
- [02:27]
C
So 15 years ago we were pitched a program by Mark Burnett, who had developed Survivor for CBS and his idea was to pitch Survivor in a different jungle, and that jungle was the boardroom. And I was at NBC Entertainment at the time, and we were in desperate need of a reality hit program. And so when he pitched it, I was immediately taken. The fact that he had Donald Trump attached to it appealed to me even more. And the reason was I was from New York. I was out in Los Angeles running NBC Entertainment at the time. But as a New Yorker, I understood that Donald Trump was a fixture on the front pages of the tabloids.
- [03:06]
B
Tabloids. Spy magazine.
- [03:08]
C
Exactly. And that he could generate publicity. So the idea of a hit reality program from somebody like Mark Burnett, coupled with a PR and publicity machine like Donald Trump, I thought had the makings of a possible real success.
- [03:23]
B
And did you have to mold him in any way, or was he himself right off the bat?
- [03:27]
C
No, I mean, I think the key to the success of the program was that he was who he was, and he was, you know, he was playing himself. He didn't have to be molded. And he was an actor.
- [03:38]
B
How did he behave on the set? We hear that there are all kinds of possible tapes that are in the hands of Burnett that would reflect very, very badly in the way that the grabbing of the crotch tape certainly did. What do you know of that?
- [03:53]
C
You know, I obviously did not go to the set or any of the tapings other than the live finales, which I attended. So I was not aware of any issues on the set. I am unaware of any tapes that exist. Mark Burnett owned all those tapes. NBC did not. He produced it for us and delivered the program, but I am unaware of any of that.
- [04:12]
B
How did you think his career would progress when you had him on television? It was a hit. Maybe not the hit that he thought it was. He thought it was the biggest hit in the universe, but it was certainly a hit.
- [04:22]
C
In fairness, that first year and second year that was on the air, it was humongous. It really was that first year, the biggest thing on television, and for those first few years, the biggest success that NBC had. So you listen, he always exaggerated the ratings to some degree, but it was a genuine hit.
- [04:40]
B
And who was he appealing to as a TV star for the Apprentice? Who was he appealing to? Is it the same demographic as he did politically, or was it different?
- [04:47]
C
No, I mean, listen, he was on NBC on Thursday nights. It actually appealed to quite an upscale audience. And it was people who liked reality television. It was people who liked drama. It was people who thought that they were learning business lessons. And so it appealed to a wide swath of people. Where did I think it was going to go? Where did I think his career would take him? I don't really think that we ever gave that much thought at the time.
- [05:16]
B
Were you aware that his other businesses were in trouble at the same time or you didn't have to care?
- [05:22]
C
Honestly, that wasn't what it was about. He was a well known New York real estate publicity maven, PR maven, and he was the star of one of our shows.
- [05:37]
B
Did you think of him in political terms?
- [05:39]
C
Not at all. Not at all? Never.
- [05:42]
B
Do you agree with him that he never would have been President of the United States without the Apprentice?
- [05:48]
C
I think that the Apprentice certainly gave him a platform and a broader name recognition than than he ever would have had otherwise. And I do think that was incredibly important to his political aspirations. It's probably unlikely that he could have made the run for the presidency without the Apprentice.
- [06:09]
B
Do you ever wake up in the morning these days.
- [06:12]
C
No.
- [06:13]
B
And think to yourself how weird this is, that the guy who was the Apprentice and with all the spooky music behind him and choosing between these four people and firing somebody, this guy now has destroyers off the Korean Peninsula, is lobbing cruise missiles into Syria, is making decisions about health care and every aspect of the national life.
- [06:40]
C
There's no question that it's an incredible story. There's no question that almost no one, probably including Donald Trump, could have predicted that that would be the case. It certainly hasn't happened at the presidential level before. There's no way that I or anyone else would have predicted to you back in 2004 when the apprentice went on the air that Donald Trump would end up as President of the United States.
- [07:08]
B
What was your initial reaction to the announcement that he was actually going to run? As I understand that CNN refused to basically cover all the moments when he would dip his toe in a little bit. And not even before you got to CNN four years ago. Suddenly he decides he's going to run for president. Do you think he was running to win? Did he want to be president? What did he want out of this race?
- [07:31]
C
Well, I think that initially he thought it would be good for his business and good marketing for the Trump Organization. I really don't think that early on he thought that he would win the nomination. And, you know, obviously over time it became a lot clearer that he was resonating and that he'd hit a chord with the country. I think we understood early on that he was resonating. I think in part that's because I had seen what he was capable of doing how he was able to do.
- [08:06]
B
You mean instance of what just as sheerly on TV ratings?
- [08:10]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, there was a lot of interest in Donald Trump. He knows how to play a room, he knows how to entertain, he knows how to work. Work and audience.
- [08:18]
B
I don't think anybody doubts that. What does he believe? In other words, you've known him for 15 years and pretty well. What's at the center of this guy in terms of ideas, in terms of principles? What's at the core of Donald Trump that maybe you have more insight in than the rest of us?
- [08:35]
C
Yeah, I don't know that I have that insight because I never had political conversations with him, ever. We had conversations about the ratings of the Apprentice and how much he was gonna make doing the Apprentice.
- [08:48]
B
You had negotiations with him?
- [08:49]
C
Ye, I negotiated. Well, you know, we ended up paying him what we wanted to pay him.
- [08:56]
B
What did he want?
- [08:57]
C
Well, he wanted a million dollars an episode to do the Apprentice in the second year.
- [09:01]
B
What did you give him?
- [09:01]
C
$60,000. So, you know, it was quite a spread there, but it worked out for everybody in terms of the Apprentice came back and had a long, successful run.
- [09:13]
B
So the one part of your coverage from the beginning of the Trump political experience till now that you've been somewhat self critical of is the number and length of coverage given to the rallies. Can you talk to that?
- [09:27]
C
So early on in the summer of 2015, we like the other cable news networks, but CNN aired a lot of his early campaign rallies in full, unedited. And I think in hindsight, if we could go back, we probably wouldn't do all of those. I think we probably did do too many of them. I do not believe that's why he's President of the United States. I do not believe that's why he won the Republican nomination.
- [09:56]
B
Did the numbers shoot up when you put his rallies on?
- [09:58]
C
Well, there's no question there was tremendous audience interest. Now, you have to remember what would.
- [10:02]
B
Have happened if you put a rally on by Jeb Bush or Rocco Rubio.
- [10:06]
C
Well, we put some of those on and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that there was anywhere near. There was much more audience interested in Donald Trump's rallies, I think for a few reasons. One, he was the Republican frontrunner almost from the start. Secondly, we're in the business of covering news. He made a lot of news at those rallies by saying things that were out of the norm of any political candidate, certainly a Republican candidate. And third, you know, it was also an Entertaining rally and it was hard to take your eyes off of. Now I understand people say, well, it's hard to take your eyes off of car crashes as well. But, you know, he was running for President of the United States. And I don't think you can just dismiss that as something that we should make the decision not to cover.
- [10:57]
B
You know, one phenomenal thing about Trump and the Trump candidacy and the Trump presidency is the probably the truest thing he's ever said, is that if I walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot someone, I get away with it.
- [11:10]
C
Well, I think part of what we're all learning is that there's no end to the number of stories and number of issues that surround Trump and the Trump Organization. And so part of it is that it's hard for any one story to sustain because the next day there's another one and there's another one after that. And it's hard to keep up with all of the stories. But on top of that, I do think that the people who voted for Donald Trump, the people who support Donald Trump, they understand that he was a businessman, he did things, he said things. They may not be what we're used to. They're okay with it.
- [12:01]
B
They're okay with it. Why?
- [12:02]
C
I think they're okay with it because they're completely not okay with Washington. And all they wanted was somebody to go to Washington and actually just create havoc in Washington because I think their feeling was whatever was happening there for the last however many years, that wasn't benefiting them. And so they didn't think this could be worse. And whatever issues he had in his organization or whatever issues he had in his business or his personal life, they were willing to overlook all of that.
- [12:39]
B
And do you think that will be a constant condition? In other words, these stories, whether they're about his business, about his personal behavior, about his rhetoric, about changing his mind every two seconds, about what, you know.
- [12:52]
C
The internal affairs, none of it will matter if their lives improve.
- [12:58]
B
On a material basis.
- [12:59]
C
Yeah, on a material basis. That's it. I think that it's. These people want their lives to be simpler, better and easier. If they are, then he'll succeed.
- [13:12]
B
You're now in a real race in many ways. On cable television. CNN has huge reach digitally, but you also have this on television itself. You've got this kind of political map. MSNBC has branded itself, or for years branded itself, as kind of the liberal or left leaning station, although they seem to be getting bit by bit out of that business.
- [13:35]
C
Not in primetime, though they still are. Very much in prime time.
- [13:37]
B
Do you think they'll get out of that business?
- [13:39]
C
Out of the liberal? Yeah, no, no, I think that's what's very much working for them right now in primetime.
- [13:47]
B
Are you a fan of Morning Joe in the morning?
- [13:52]
C
I prefer New Day, which is the CNN version. I think Morning Joe does a nice job and is a good program. Not quite as good as New Day on cnn.
- [14:03]
B
Okay, that was horrible, but okay.
- [14:05]
C
Well, you set me up. I had to, you know, listen, Morning Joe does a good job.
- [14:08]
B
How would you draw the map of the three obvious cables?
- [14:11]
C
So there's three cable news networks, right. And obviously Fox News is.
- [14:30]
B
That was a real pause, not radio breaking apart.
- [14:33]
C
No, no, no. I mean, you can say it. So look, there's three cable news networks, certainly in primetime. And in the morning, Fox is State run TV and is extolling the line out of the White House. MSNBC has become the opposition. And I think CNN is seeking the truth. And that's really the way we look at the map. State run tv, the opposition, and we're looking for the truth.
- [15:04]
B
Do you think the other two networks are not broadcasting the truth?
- [15:09]
C
Well, I think that.
- [15:11]
B
And that CNN has a hold on the objective truth.
- [15:15]
C
Look, I think that there are clear agendas at work at the other cable news networks, depending on their political points of view.
- [15:25]
B
You get attacked over and over again, as others do, the Post, the Times, others, for fake news. Fake news. What effect is this having on the country, this whole notion of fake news?
- [15:36]
C
Yeah, so I actually think it's unfortunate. I think it's an unfortunate phrase. I think we should all try to avoid it. I think it's also dangerous and unfortunate that the president of the United States and the people around him would try to denigrate an institution like the media, which is one of the, you know, bedrocks of this country. I think there is an issue with news that is not real and that is perpetrated by people who wanna hurt other people, skew people's point of view, change, change people's narratives. I think that is a real danger.
- [16:20]
B
But clearly Trump found something. He hooked into something that you and I have known for years. You know, the Pew ratings would come out and say the confidence in the media was still.
- [16:30]
C
But, David, what he means by fake news is news that he doesn't like.
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B
No, I understand that.
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C
And there is a difference between news that is not real and news that he doesn't like. But he.
- [16:38]
B
Into something this widespread belief that we're full of it.
- [16:41]
C
Yeah, well, listen, I think that that's been perpetrated for quite a long time by Fox News, which has tried to denigrate the rest of the media. I think the Internet has given rise to voices that. That want to attack others. Now, look, by the way, there are folks on both sides of the aisle that are pushing out propaganda. But I think that what we're trying to do at CNN is try to tell the objective truth. That's our goal.
- [17:14]
B
We've heard, and I've heard that the President is an obsessive television watcher, and to such a degree that. That people like you can almost time what he's watching from the phone calls that you get or that his surrogates.
- [17:29]
C
Make or his tweets.
- [17:31]
B
And so give me an example of that and how odd and unique that is. No.
- [17:35]
C
Well, we know. We know in pretty real time when he's been watching because there are many tweets that he'll send out that relate to something that we've just discussed on the air. So, you know that he's a consumer of television and television news and cable news in particular. And that's just the reality of the world we live in. You know, President Obama would read the latest books that were out. You talked to him about those many times. President Trump watches cable news. To each his own.
- [18:11]
B
In fact, if I remember right, Obama used to say that he deliberately doesn't watch cable news so that he wouldn't have the noise in his head.
- [18:17]
C
So, you know, I would argue to you that that was probably a mistake by President Obama, making him too detached. Yes, exactly. If we want to argue that President Trump maybe watches too much cable news, I think you could argue that President Obama should have watched a little bit of cable news.
- [18:32]
B
And not because you feel personally insulted, but because you think he's just.
- [18:35]
C
By the way, I don't care if one watched a little or watched none and one watches a lot. It doesn't matter to me or to us. But I do think that there is value in understanding where the conversation is and having a little less detachment from where the popular conversation is. Now, on the other hand, I think you can watch too much of it and get too much of your information from cable news, and that's as much a mistake as watching none of it. I don't know. You're here to do the interview, but what do you think? You interviewed President Obama all the time. What do you think?
- [19:11]
B
I think he knew pretty well well what was happening on cable news. And I don't think people always tell the absolute truth about what they read and what they watch.
- [19:19]
C
Yeah, I think that's probably fair.
- [19:20]
B
The same way that authors say they don't read their reviews. I have to think that, yeah, Obama knew exactly what.
- [19:26]
C
Well, I think he knew. I don't know if he knew exactly.
- [19:29]
B
I don't think he knew obsessively, that's for sure.
- [19:31]
C
Yeah.
- [19:32]
B
Thank you so much, Jeff.
- [19:33]
C
Good to be with you, David.
- [19:39]
A
That was Jeff Zucker talking to David Remnick. I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global Editorial director.
- [19:51]
C
I'm Michael Colori, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.
- [19:55]
A
And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of the biggest stories in tech.
- [20:14]
C
Right. So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you.
- [20:25]
A
Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.
- [20:36]
C
From prx.