Joan Acocella and Margaret Talbot on Pope Francis.

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Joan Acocella and Margaret Talbot on Pope Francis
Date: March 16, 2013
Host: Amy Davidson
Guests: Joan Acocella (staff writer) and Margaret Talbot (staff writer)

Overview

This episode, aired just after the election of Pope Francis, explores the significance of Jorge Mario Bergoglio’s selection as the first Pope from the Americas. Host Amy Davidson is joined by New Yorker writers Joan Acocella and Margaret Talbot to break down Francis’s background, his symbolic choice of name, his reputation and controversy, and what his papacy might mean for the future of the Catholic Church.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning Behind the Name “Francis”

• St. Francis of Assisi’s Legacy:
  • Joan Acocella explains the radical humility and poverty exemplified by St. Francis and why that symbolism is important.
  • “What Francis of Assisi is famous for is that he seriously, seriously and radically embraced the vow of poverty, which includes, in his case, immense humility.” — Joan Acocella [02:08]
• Why Choose Francis Now?
  • Bergoglio as the first Pope Francis is seen as both surprising and logical given the church’s current context.
  • The choice seems to signal a yearning for a more humble, compassionate leadership, especially after the reserved Benedict XVI.

2. The Appeal and Persona of Pope Francis

• A Kinder, Gentler Pope:
  • Joan underscores his grandfatherly, approachable demeanor, contrasting sharply with Benedict XVI.
  • “He looks like what you wish your grandfather had been... his speech was very touching.” — Joan Acocella [03:43]
• Initial Media and Public Reaction:
  • Margaret also felt he “seems modest,” but urges caution given criticisms of his past.

3. Controversies from Argentina’s “Dirty War”

• Church Complicity or Silent Resistance?
  • Margaret Talbot discusses the allegations regarding Bergoglio’s behavior during the Argentine military dictatorship:
    • Claims exist that he withdrew protection from priests, was not outspoken about government atrocities, and wasn’t supportive of the “grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo.”
    • Bergoglio denied the allegations, stating he worked “behind the scenes” to help.
  • “There are these, you know, grandmothers in the Plaza de Mayo who have been protesting about this for years. And some of them have actually complained that he has not spoken out in sympathy for them.” — Margaret Talbot [05:22]

4. A Non-European Pope & The Church’s Global Future

• Historical Significance:
  • First Pope from the Americas; only a handful of non-Europeans in the distant past.
  • Still, Bergoglio is the son of Italian immigrants, underlining enduring European connections.
  • “Argentina is full of Italians and really good Italian shoes, by the way.” — Joan Acocella [06:46]
• Balancing Conservatism & Pastoral Concern:
  • Joan and Margaret highlight Francis’s doctrinal conservatism—staunch on same-sex marriage, for example—but a strong record speaking against economic injustice.
  • Quote (from Bergoglio):
    • “We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most and reduced misery the least. The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to heaven.” — Read by Joan Acocella [07:11]

5. Reconciling Conservatism with Compassion

• Contradictions or Complements?
  • Margaret notes the coexistence of Francis’s doctrinal orthodoxy (e.g., opposition to same-sex marriage) and deep acts of personal compassion (like washing the feet of AIDS patients).
  • The hosts discuss the conclave possibly seeking a “compromise” pope: one not liberal doctrinally, but more open and pastoral in affect.
  • “You can be quite doctrinally conservative as he is and quite compassionate... They sort of squared the circle and picked the perfect compromise.” — Margaret Talbot [08:33]

6. On St. Francis as “Reformer”

• What Reform Means:
  • Joan clarifies that Francis of Assisi was a “reformer” in the sense of urging personal transformation, not orchestrating political disruption.
  • Comparison is drawn to previous papal controversies over silent resistance vs. public condemnation (referencing Pius XII and WWII).
  • “Francis was a reformer, possibly the greatest reformer the church ever had. But... he wanted people to reform their own lives.” — Joan Acocella [09:30]

7. Implications of a Jesuit Pope

• First Jesuit Pope:
  • Joan and Margaret discuss the Jesuits’ reputation for teaching, missionary zeal, and intellectualism.
  • The order’s focus on outreach and engagement contrasts with recent papacies.
  • “The Jesuit's fame is for their teaching and for their missionary work. The second above all.” — Joan Acocella [11:00]
• Notable Jesuit “Progressivism”:
  • Margaret cites Francis’s criticism of priests who deny sacraments to single mothers as quietly radical for a Catholic prelate.

8. The “Transition Pope” Dynamic

• Age as a Factor:
  • At 76, Francis won’t serve as long as John Paul II; may be seen as an intentional, less “dominant” choice.
  • Comparison is made to John XXIII—elected at 77 and surprised everyone by launching Vatican II.
  • “Call me irresponsible, but Pope John XXIII... The minute he got in, he called the second Ecumenical Council.” — Joan Acocella [12:49]

9. What to Watch For: First Moves

• Internal Reform as Key Hope:
  • Both Joan and Margaret emphasize the Vatican’s need for internal reform (bank scandals, corruption, old-boys’ network, and accountability for abuse).
  • “If they can make the church cleaner, it would be a big step forward... Including the child abuse scandal, if that could be solved somehow, that would be a huge step in the right direction and a step which would allow him the moral authority to make other changes.” — Joan Acocella [13:37–13:56]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He looks like what you wish your grandfather had been... his speech was very touching.” — Joan Acocella [03:43]
• “There is this kind of darker chapter in the past.” — Margaret Talbot, on the Dirty War allegations [05:18]
• “Argentina is full of Italians and really good Italian shoes, by the way.” — Joan Acocella [06:46]
• “We live in the most unequal part of the world... The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to heaven.” — Bergoglio, cited by Joan Acocella [07:11]
• “You can be quite doctrinally conservative as he is and quite compassionate... They sort of squared the circle and picked the perfect compromise.” — Margaret Talbot [08:33]
• “Francis was a reformer... But he wanted people to reform their own lives.” — Joan Acocella [09:30]
• “The Jesuit's fame is for their teaching and for their missionary work.” — Joan Acocella [11:00]
• “If they can make the church cleaner, it would be a big step forward...” — Joan Acocella [13:37]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Description | Time (MM:SS) | |---------|-------------|--------------| | Introduction & Framing | Host sets the context for the episode | 01:14 | | On the choice of the name “Francis” | St. Francis of Assisi's significance | 02:08 | | Personality of Pope Francis | The “grandfatherly” impression and contrast with Benedict | 03:43 | | The Dirty War Controversy | Bergoglio's record during Argentina’s dictatorship | 04:25–06:19 | | Significance of first non-European Pope | Church’s global shift examined | 06:19–07:53 | | Reconciling conservatism and compassion | Contradictory aspects of Francis’s stances | 07:53–09:14 | | Was Francis a “reformer”? | Debating the label as a reformer | 09:14–10:44 | | The importance of a Jesuit pope | What Jesuit heritage brings | 10:44–12:15 | | “Transition” Pope discussion | Age and expectations for the papacy | 12:15–13:22 | | Hopes for the first moves | Calls for internal reform | 13:22–13:56 |

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Takeaway

The episode offers a nuanced, insightful discussion focused not just on biography but on the dilemmas and hopes facing the Catholic Church. The hosts balance admiration for Francis’s symbolic break with the past and concern over unresolved issues. Their converging hope: that Francis’s papacy could finally bring much-needed internal reform to an embattled institution, leveraging humility and moral credibility as foundations for true change.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Buena Sera this is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about politics. It's Thursday, March 14th. I'm Amy Davidson. In this week for Dorothy Wickenden. Yesterday, on the second day of the Conclave and on the fifth ballot, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, was elected Pope. He has taken the name Francis. I'm joined by Margaret Talbot and Joan Accochella. Joan, in a piece you wrote about St. Francis of Assisi, you told the story about a woman, a contemporary of St. Francis's who asked him why you how would the first Pope Francis answer that question? Why? Cardinal Bergoglio?

[C]

Thanks. I think it's, you know, it's quite logical, even if he is the first Francis. Actually, I'm surprised there haven't been Francis before because, you know, apart from the Virgin Mary, Francis of Assisi is probably the most famous saint and the most beloved. But what Francis of Assisi is famous for is that he seriously, seriously and radically embraced the vow of poverty, which includes in his case, immense humility. So he forbade his men to Handle money ever. They owned no property, they slept on the ground, they went barefoot. They cared for lepers, which in those days, and probably now were very much despised. Francis was an absolutely serious radical. And let me add one tiny thing. Francis in later centuries was sometimes. Francis of Assisi was sometimes criticized by serious radicals who were trying to reform their society and their church. And St Francis of Assisi did not do that. He wanted all people to reform themselves in their lives.

[B]

Obviously, Bergoglio chose the name Francis for a lot of those reasons. But do you think that the other cardinals in some way were also looking for a Francis? Were they also looking for somebody who could be a more lovable figure than Benedict?

[C]

Many of you saw him on the tv, but, you know, he's just sort of irresistible. He looks like what you wish your grandfather had been. You know, he has that sweet smile and those little glasses and his speech was very touching. You know, he's saying they went to the ends of the earth to get their pulp. Please pray for me. Now we start down this difficult road, which he certainly has, a very difficult road. I mean, in some part, Amy, I do think that they chose him because. Because they wanted a more lovable man, which Ratzinger wasn't.

[B]

Margaret, did you have that same reaction to him when you saw him on the balcony?

[D]

I did. I had the reaction of he's appealing and grandfatherly and seems modest. But I must say that some of the reports that have come out since, not so much about his doctrinal conservatism because we expected that. I think, you know, that he's a fervent opponent of same sex marriage. I mean, that's not a big surprise, I think, coming out of this conclave. But I guess I was a little surprised and didn't know about some of the kind of allegations that continue to swirl around him about the dirty war in Argentina. So, you know, he was a leader in the church in the period of 1976 to 1983 when the military junta was ruling there. And there have been these charges. There's an Argentine journalist named Horacio Verbitzki who's written this book, the Silence, where he claims that Bergoglio lifted church protection from these two priests who were then jailed and disappeared for a while, although they actually did turn up later. And just in general, there have been some allegations about the Church not being adequately condemning of the, you know, murders, kidnappings. You know, Argentina is famous for having these terrible instances where political prisoners were taken and killed, usually leftists, and then their children were forcibly adopted by members of the military and so on. And there are these, you know, grandmothers in the Plaza de Mayo who have been protesting about this for years. And some of them have actually complained that he has not spoken out in sympathy for them. So he has denied these allegations. He has said that he worked behind the scenes to help leftist priests during that time. And none of the. Although he was named in a lawsuit, the lawsuit was dropped. So many of these allegations may not have as much meat to them as you would think. But I think it' swhen you think of him as this advocate for the poor, which clearly he has become. There is this kind of darker chapter in the past.

[B]

There were sort of a handful of North African popes 1500 years ago. There was a Syrian pope in the 700s. Seven hundreds, not 1700s. It's been a long time since there's been a non European pope and there's never been one from the Americas. How significant is this? How much of a change is it for the church? Or is it just acknowledging a change that's been happening for a while?

[C]

Of course, the last two popes were non Italian. And don't forget that Bergoglio's parents were Italian. Two of many, many thousands of Italians who've gone to Argentina. Argentina is full of Italians and really good Italian shoes, by the way. Look, I think the Church is in fact trying to get a more liberal Pope through this guy. He's doctrinally or declaredly, he's a doctrinal conservative. But the record of his life indicates a serious concern for the poor. He has spoken out very, very strongly about inequality of wealth. I'm going to read you a tiny quote that I picked up last night off the Internet. Here he is speaking to a convocation, I think, of bishops, and he says we live in the most unequal part of the world which has grown the most and reduced misery the least. The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to heaven.

[B]

There are two images that have come up in the last few days. First, Bergoglio writing to nuns about the need to fight against same sex marriage in Argentina, saying that it was not just not a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God. You've got that, that's one part of the story. You also have the genuinely moving story of him visiting a hospital in Buenos Aires in 2001 and washing the feet of AIDS patients. So how do you reconcile those two Moments. Margaret, do you want to talk about that?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, it can seem to us, you know, many people outside of the Catholic Church might think of tolerance as this kind of overall blanket that covers everything from gay marriage to, you know, extreme compassion for the poor. But in fact, you can be quite doctrinally conservative as he is and quite compassionate, you know, for the poor and directed towards the poor and political, in a sense. And in fact, they sort of, you know, it seems as though the conclave sort of squared the circle and picked the perfect compromise in somebody who is not going to stray on questions of contraception or ordination of women or same sex marriage, but who is, you know, in some sense more moderate in the sense that he is this kind of more democratic figure.

[B]

Let me ask you, Joan, in the last 24 hours, I've heard Francis of Assisi referred to as a reformer dozens of times. Does that feel right to you? People keep saying he's chosen the name of St. Francis, the great reformer of the Church.

[C]

Francis was a reformer, possibly the greatest reformer the church ever had. But he wanted people. He was so radical that he wanted people to reform their own lives. And once he became, which he did very early, became a truly famous man, you know, he was considered a saint long before he died. He could have, as people in Latin America are saying of Bergoglio, he could have used his name. He could have been a big help to the movement against the crimes of the Church. The same thing they say about Pius xii. I mean, you know, this argument is an old thing. Consider the arguments over Pius xii, who was the Second World War pope, and the fact that he did not sign any statement or make any statement against the Nazis. Now it's said that he did everything behind the scenes to save Italian Jews.

[D]

But you never know, right? That's the problem with saving.

[C]

You did everything behind the primo. Levy, an Italian Jew, talks very strongly about how Italy had a much better record than others on the continent.

[B]

Now, Pope Francis is not actually a Franciscan, he's a Jesuit, among other things, he's the first Jesuit pope. What does that mean for his papacy and for the church itself? What does it mean to have a Jesuit pope?

[C]

The Jesuit's fame is for their teaching and for their missionary work. The second above all. So I think that may be part of the deal that the church and he's talked about spreading the word. They want somebody to reach out. And under Ratzinger, I think a lot of people, certainly I regarded Ratzinger as a person who closed the church in on itself.

[B]

Margaret, what's your take on the Jesuit pope?

[D]

I think the association is exactly as Joan says, with evangelizing, spreading the gospel, and also with, yeah, intellect and teaching. And I think it's kind of interesting that one of the few ways that Bergoglio has actually sort of broken a little bit with doctrinal conservatism is apparently he has denounced priests who won't back baptize the babies of single mothers, you know, saying that they are driving a wedge between the faithful and the church. So that sort of reaching out and, you know, all of the comments he's made about the poor, about, you know, concerns about globalization undermining the lives of the poor and so on. I mean, I guess he's renounced liberation theology, but he's a reacher out, especially to the humble.

[B]

He's 76 years old. 76 is not young. What does that mean, mean about this choice that had to play a role? He's certainly not going to have the long, decades long papacy that John Paul II had. Were they looking for somebody who was not going to dominate the church in the way that John Paul did, shape it for next generation?

[C]

I mean, you're talking about the idea of what they call a transition pope. I mean, I wish him a good life, a good long life, but he's only going to be there for 10 or 12. That may be true, but, you know, call me irresponsible, but Pope John xxiii, who's, I mean, by many people, certainly by liberals, considered the great pope of the last, you know, half century. Pope John XXIII was 77 when he was elected and was considered a blameless conservative, not conservative, a nice politic pope from Venice who had never done anything wrong. And the minute he got in, he called the second Ecumenical Council.

[B]

What will you each be looking for from him as his first moves, the sort of telling moves that he might make early in his papacy that will say something about what kind of reign, as they say this is going to be.

[C]

I would be interested in seeing internal change, the big scandal with the Vatican bank and the problems of corruption and old boyism. If they can make the church cleaner, it would be a big step forward.

[D]

Yeah, I agree with that. And that seems like a more realistic hope for him than any of these other things.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the church is always seen as cynical, rightly so. And if that could be thought somehow, including the child abuse scandal, you know, if that could be solved somehow, that would be a huge step in the right direction and a step which would allow him the moral authority to make other changes.

[B]

Thanks to both of you, Joe Nacocella and Margaret Talbot, our staff writers. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. I'm Amy Davidson.

[D]

You can subscribe to this and other free New Yorker podcasts in the iTunes store. The weekly audio edition of the magazine is available at audible.com subscribers can read the magazine [e-mail] and also in the tablet edition on the iPad and the Kindle Fire.

[E]

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[D]

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[E]

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[D]

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