The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Joan Acocella and Margaret Talbot on Pope Francis
Date: March 16, 2013
Host: Amy Davidson
Guests: Joan Acocella (staff writer) and Margaret Talbot (staff writer)

Overview

This episode, aired just after the election of Pope Francis, explores the significance of Jorge Mario Bergoglio’s selection as the first Pope from the Americas. Host Amy Davidson is joined by New Yorker writers Joan Acocella and Margaret Talbot to break down Francis’s background, his symbolic choice of name, his reputation and controversy, and what his papacy might mean for the future of the Catholic Church.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning Behind the Name “Francis”

• St. Francis of Assisi’s Legacy:
  • Joan Acocella explains the radical humility and poverty exemplified by St. Francis and why that symbolism is important.
  • “What Francis of Assisi is famous for is that he seriously, seriously and radically embraced the vow of poverty, which includes, in his case, immense humility.” — Joan Acocella [02:08]
• Why Choose Francis Now?
  • Bergoglio as the first Pope Francis is seen as both surprising and logical given the church’s current context.
  • The choice seems to signal a yearning for a more humble, compassionate leadership, especially after the reserved Benedict XVI.

2. The Appeal and Persona of Pope Francis

• A Kinder, Gentler Pope:
  • Joan underscores his grandfatherly, approachable demeanor, contrasting sharply with Benedict XVI.
  • “He looks like what you wish your grandfather had been... his speech was very touching.” — Joan Acocella [03:43]
• Initial Media and Public Reaction:
  • Margaret also felt he “seems modest,” but urges caution given criticisms of his past.

3. Controversies from Argentina’s “Dirty War”

• Church Complicity or Silent Resistance?
  • Margaret Talbot discusses the allegations regarding Bergoglio’s behavior during the Argentine military dictatorship:
    • Claims exist that he withdrew protection from priests, was not outspoken about government atrocities, and wasn’t supportive of the “grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo.”
    • Bergoglio denied the allegations, stating he worked “behind the scenes” to help.
  • “There are these, you know, grandmothers in the Plaza de Mayo who have been protesting about this for years. And some of them have actually complained that he has not spoken out in sympathy for them.” — Margaret Talbot [05:22]

4. A Non-European Pope & The Church’s Global Future

• Historical Significance:
  • First Pope from the Americas; only a handful of non-Europeans in the distant past.
  • Still, Bergoglio is the son of Italian immigrants, underlining enduring European connections.
  • “Argentina is full of Italians and really good Italian shoes, by the way.” — Joan Acocella [06:46]
• Balancing Conservatism & Pastoral Concern:
  • Joan and Margaret highlight Francis’s doctrinal conservatism—staunch on same-sex marriage, for example—but a strong record speaking against economic injustice.
  • Quote (from Bergoglio):
    • “We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most and reduced misery the least. The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to heaven.” — Read by Joan Acocella [07:11]

5. Reconciling Conservatism with Compassion

• Contradictions or Complements?
  • Margaret notes the coexistence of Francis’s doctrinal orthodoxy (e.g., opposition to same-sex marriage) and deep acts of personal compassion (like washing the feet of AIDS patients).
  • The hosts discuss the conclave possibly seeking a “compromise” pope: one not liberal doctrinally, but more open and pastoral in affect.
  • “You can be quite doctrinally conservative as he is and quite compassionate... They sort of squared the circle and picked the perfect compromise.” — Margaret Talbot [08:33]

6. On St. Francis as “Reformer”

• What Reform Means:
  • Joan clarifies that Francis of Assisi was a “reformer” in the sense of urging personal transformation, not orchestrating political disruption.
  • Comparison is drawn to previous papal controversies over silent resistance vs. public condemnation (referencing Pius XII and WWII).
  • “Francis was a reformer, possibly the greatest reformer the church ever had. But... he wanted people to reform their own lives.” — Joan Acocella [09:30]

7. Implications of a Jesuit Pope

• First Jesuit Pope:
  • Joan and Margaret discuss the Jesuits’ reputation for teaching, missionary zeal, and intellectualism.
  • The order’s focus on outreach and engagement contrasts with recent papacies.
  • “The Jesuit's fame is for their teaching and for their missionary work. The second above all.” — Joan Acocella [11:00]
• Notable Jesuit “Progressivism”:
  • Margaret cites Francis’s criticism of priests who deny sacraments to single mothers as quietly radical for a Catholic prelate.

8. The “Transition Pope” Dynamic

• Age as a Factor:
  • At 76, Francis won’t serve as long as John Paul II; may be seen as an intentional, less “dominant” choice.
  • Comparison is made to John XXIII—elected at 77 and surprised everyone by launching Vatican II.
  • “Call me irresponsible, but Pope John XXIII... The minute he got in, he called the second Ecumenical Council.” — Joan Acocella [12:49]

9. What to Watch For: First Moves

• Internal Reform as Key Hope:
  • Both Joan and Margaret emphasize the Vatican’s need for internal reform (bank scandals, corruption, old-boys’ network, and accountability for abuse).
  • “If they can make the church cleaner, it would be a big step forward... Including the child abuse scandal, if that could be solved somehow, that would be a huge step in the right direction and a step which would allow him the moral authority to make other changes.” — Joan Acocella [13:37–13:56]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He looks like what you wish your grandfather had been... his speech was very touching.” — Joan Acocella [03:43]
• “There is this kind of darker chapter in the past.” — Margaret Talbot, on the Dirty War allegations [05:18]
• “Argentina is full of Italians and really good Italian shoes, by the way.” — Joan Acocella [06:46]
• “We live in the most unequal part of the world... The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to heaven.” — Bergoglio, cited by Joan Acocella [07:11]
• “You can be quite doctrinally conservative as he is and quite compassionate... They sort of squared the circle and picked the perfect compromise.” — Margaret Talbot [08:33]
• “Francis was a reformer... But he wanted people to reform their own lives.” — Joan Acocella [09:30]
• “The Jesuit's fame is for their teaching and for their missionary work.” — Joan Acocella [11:00]
• “If they can make the church cleaner, it would be a big step forward...” — Joan Acocella [13:37]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Description | Time (MM:SS) | |---------|-------------|--------------| | Introduction & Framing | Host sets the context for the episode | 01:14 | | On the choice of the name “Francis” | St. Francis of Assisi's significance | 02:08 | | Personality of Pope Francis | The “grandfatherly” impression and contrast with Benedict | 03:43 | | The Dirty War Controversy | Bergoglio's record during Argentina’s dictatorship | 04:25–06:19 | | Significance of first non-European Pope | Church’s global shift examined | 06:19–07:53 | | Reconciling conservatism and compassion | Contradictory aspects of Francis’s stances | 07:53–09:14 | | Was Francis a “reformer”? | Debating the label as a reformer | 09:14–10:44 | | The importance of a Jesuit pope | What Jesuit heritage brings | 10:44–12:15 | | “Transition” Pope discussion | Age and expectations for the papacy | 12:15–13:22 | | Hopes for the first moves | Calls for internal reform | 13:22–13:56 |

Takeaway

The episode offers a nuanced, insightful discussion focused not just on biography but on the dilemmas and hopes facing the Catholic Church. The hosts balance admiration for Francis’s symbolic break with the past and concern over unresolved issues. Their converging hope: that Francis’s papacy could finally bring much-needed internal reform to an embattled institution, leveraging humility and moral credibility as foundations for true change.