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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Joe Biden’s “Very Risky Choice” to Run Again Increases the Scrutiny on Kamala Harris
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Joe Biden’s “Very Risky Choice” to Run Again Increases the Scrutiny on Kamala Harris
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- [00:00]
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Evan Osnos
Donald Trump is here tonight.
- [01:18]
Susan Glasser
Remember the famous White House correspondents dinner when Obama goes through with the show and that's the one where he trashes Donald Trump, that allegedly caused Donald Trump to, you know, want to have revenge against.
- [01:30]
Joe Biden (quoted)
All kidding aside, obviously we all know.
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Jane Mayer
About your credentials and breadth of experience. For example, no, seriously, just recently in an episode of Celebrity Apprentice, do you.
- [01:46]
Evan Osnos
Think there's anybody that's going to get motivated to run for president from being insulted this weekend? Is there anybody we can think of? Like if there's anything.
- [01:53]
Jane Mayer
Tucker Carlson. Hey, you know who I hear they're also going after? I mean, apparently the comedian has mentioned that one target of his jokes is Clarence. We will see. But I hope it doesn't urge him.
- [02:05]
Susan Glasser
To go to run for president.
- [02:07]
Evan Osnos
Thomas24 we may know why.
- [02:09]
Jane Mayer
Oh my God. Welcome to the Political Scene, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics. I'm Jane Mayer and I'm joined by my colleagues Evan Osnos and Susan Glasser. Hi, Evan. Hi, Susan.
- [02:27]
Evan Osnos
Hey, Jane.
- [02:28]
Susan Glasser
Hey there. Great to be with you guys.
- [02:36]
Jane Mayer
This week, President Biden officially launched his re election campaign. Over the last four years, strategists, members of the press and voters have speculated that Joe Biden might only serve one term in office. He described himself as a bridge, but to whom? One conclusion from his announcement this week is that it won't be a bridge to Kamala Harris anytime soon. Biden chose Harris to cement ties with black and women voters, and she played a key role in Biden's 2020 vict. But like other vice presidents, she's discovered that the job is less than an ideal launching pad for her own political ambitions. Some of the reasons for that are beyond her control. Others seem to be issues of her own making. Regardless of the reasons, some Democrats are even worried that she could be a drag on the ticket in 2024. So what to make of the Harris vice presidency so far and what effect she will have on the 2024 campaign? Let's start with Biden's announcement this week. Why, in the end, did Biden decide to run again? What do you guys think?
- [03:42]
Evan Osnos
I think. Well, let's talk about actually the launch itself. I mean, it was what we might describe in the restaurant business as a soft launch. It was a video that was designed almost deliberately, I think, not to cause a huge kerfuffle. They wanted to just sort of get it established that he is, in fact, running and then move on. They've made a big point about saying he's gonna continue doing business of the presidency. And in fact, you saw most of that this week. And I think part of that is because when you're the president, you have a lot of big structural advantages when running. You can more or less run from the Rose Garden. You can meet with foreign leaders. You can look very dignified and all that sort of stuff. I think a couple of things struck me about the announcement. One, you see, obviously there is a natural symmetry to what he did in 2019 where he talked about the battle for the soul of the nation. I don't know if you guys have heard that we're in a battle for the soul of the nation. He may have mentioned it, but that idea, which remains really at the core of it, he's kind of upped the stakes a little more. And he used this word, which is a fascinating thing. He's describing it as about freedom.
- [04:45]
Joe Biden (quoted)
Personal freedom is fundamental to who we are as Americans. MAGA extremists are lining up to take on those bedrock freedoms. The question we're facing is whether in the years ahead, we have more freedom.
- [04:55]
Evan Osnos
Or less freedom, which is language that traditionally has been really sort of reserved for the right wing. And he's kind of snatching it back for liberals and saying, hold on a second, actually your personal liberty is at stake. But I just want to mention one thing that I find really compelling. I went back and looked at the reelection video that Barack Obama used in 2011. And if you look at it and compare it to what we just saw in 2011, it was like an acoustic guitar over images of a farm and a church and a quiet suburban street. Well, it seems like the last couple of elections that we've had have been almost kind of turning point campaigns. And all the talk in the video was about how we've sort of turned this corner in American life. And that's the feeling that was in the air. And what we saw this week, which was this very grave and sort of dire announcement, is actually a fair reflection of where the country's mood is, certainly among Democrats. And that was the most interesting thing for me was this little sense of where the zeitgeist is and just how profoundly different it is than 12 years ago.
- [05:58]
Jane Mayer
We're sort of on the precipice, it feels like of something he's promising to hold off if he possibly can, I guess. I don't know, Susan, on the precipice.
- [06:06]
Susan Glasser
We'Ve been over the cliff. I mean, let's be honest here. I mean, you know, the images that begin with the video are the images of January and Americans ransacking their own capital. And I still, you know, gonna be like a broken record here. Like this is the context, it is not a theoretical challenge. We are in the middle of a crisis. And I think that the Biden video accurately reflects that, the problem. Of course, let's talk about the Rose Garden strategy. Cuz I do think that's absolutely the plan here. And of course it's the plan. Right. So there were many aspects of this announcement that were in a way even almost generic. You could say to a first term president seeking a second term presidency. What is the slogan he's rolling out? Finish the job, Unfinished business. We've got more to do, we're about to turn the corner. Things are looking up in America. I mean these are almost again, they're almost generic. But what does he do the next day he has the state visit Biden in the Rose Garden, holding forth on nuclear policy with South Korea and trying to hold off the North Koreans. You have the Donald Trump circus in the other ring, split screen tv. You have Donald Trump in a Manhattan courtroom, A judge Reprimanding him for attacking a woman who is on the stand who says that she was raped. She claims that she was raped by Donald Trump decades ago in the dressing room of a Manhattan department store. And on any given day, for the entire rest of this campaign, given all the legal troubles and the criminal indictment and the potential additional charges against him, you could have this kind of unseemly courtroom spectacle with Donald Trump any given moment for the very rest of the campaign. But. And here's the but. You have Joe Biden. It should be an easy pitch, right? You know, a swing. And out there, I mean, Donald Trump, the biggest sort of liar and clown ever seen in American politics. And yet Biden has real liabilities that I think we have to talk about, too. And that goes right to the heart of the show today, because he was asked this question at the press conference by ABC News. Okay, sir, but your age. The vast majority of Americans, both Democrats and Republicans, do not want a rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. One of the biggest factors they cite is the advanced age of the president, 80 years old. Even Democrats who are very positive about his accomplishments, about his administration, don't really want him to run again for a second term, yet he's doing. So. The question was, if is it, you said you can beat Trump and you are the only one, Is that the reason why you're running? That is because you don't think that your own vice president, Kamala Harris, or another Democrat can win. And I think that's been, so to speak, the elephant in the room for many Democrats for the last couple years is this gnawing anxiety that in the middle of this existential crisis for democracy, that they're kind of stuck with Joe Biden because they're not convinced that Kamala Harris was, or another Democrat, for that matter, could emerge as strong enough candidate to beat Donald Trump.
- [09:18]
Jane Mayer
You think that's what is at the base of the low approval ratings for Biden, that rather than them being really a reflection of his record, that it really is the anxiety about his age?
- [09:27]
Evan Osnos
Yeah. There's a fascinating bit of data, actually, if you look at how Democrats feel about Joe Biden. 47% of Democrats say they want him to run. It'd be nice for him if it was 57, but it's 47, and that is up a little bit. But I will tell you, the interesting fact is that 78% of them say they approve of the job he's doing as president. And so there is this sense of anxiety around a very specific fact. Which is age. Let's talk about it for a second. I think Jim Clyburn this week, interestingly, one of Biden's greatest allies, said there's gonna come a point where he has to talk about it in a full throated way, in a kind of head on way. And I think that's probably true. He can't kind of just continue to say, look, experience is valuable, and watch me. Everybody is watching him. It's part of the reason why they're feeling nervous is because he sort of looks older than he did, obviously a few years. So he's gonna have to talk about it. And I think if they're doing their jobs right in preparation for that, there's a way for him to make a case that says, I probably couldn't have done this job as well 40 years ago as I could today. And if I don't think I can do the job, I'm gonna.
- [10:33]
Susan Glasser
I'm gonna, right? But the hour is late because the truth is, is that that's the question she should have been prepared to answer this week when he was asked it. And yet when ABC News asked him that question, I found the response really striking. And I would suggest that our listeners go ahead. He rambled on for nearly 700 words.
- [10:53]
Joe Biden (quoted)
With regard to age, I can't even say, I guess, how old I am. I can't even say the number. It doesn't register with me. But the only thing I can say is that one of the things that people are going to find out is going to see a race and they're going to judge whether or not I have it or don't have it. I respect them taking a hard look at it. I take a hard look at it as well. I took a hard look at it.
- [11:18]
Susan Glasser
He did not have a crisp, clear answer to the most obvious of questions. And I think that, in a nutshell, is the challenge. And that's the reason why we're Republicans instantly. They practically didn't even comment on the Biden video. With the exception of the usual barrage of Donald Trump insults and attacks, most of the Republicans just skipped immediately to A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Kamala Harris, which to them is on its face, intact. They don't even need to explain.
- [11:45]
Evan Osnos
I think one thing is it's in a way the fact that this is happening at the very beginning, when there are still 500 plus days to go in this campaign is in a strange way actually helpful because it gets the issue established early. They can deal with it, they can talk about it. The question, of course, is, is it going to be is he gonna look better or worse over time, over the course of the next two years. We've seen him at moments like during the State of the Union when he had real kind of vigor and focus and, you know, this cut and thrust with the Republicans in the ch, that's the Joe Biden that they are going to need and want to put out there.
- [12:17]
Jane Mayer
Well, I think just common sense tells you that in your 80s, it's the rare person who starts to really get better and better. I mean, I think that's the worry. And as you guys have said, there is this existential fear of what will happen if he fails. And I think that that is reflected in these polling numbers. I also have to say, I think it's a sign of bad management at the White House or campaign consulting or whatever that he didn't have a quip ready the way, you know.
- [12:47]
Susan Glasser
I mean, it's not exactly a trick question.
- [12:49]
Jane Mayer
No, I mean, it's a question everybody in the entire country is fixated on. And you would think they would have had a prepared answer and maybe something, you know, quippy and fun the way that Ronald Reagan was ready for it during the debates when it came up for him and he had a joke all set that he didn't write, but it still carried the day, you know. Anyway, Biden could have said that he.
- [13:10]
Evan Osnos
Refuses to exploit Donald Trump's youth and.
- [13:12]
Susan Glasser
Inexperience is what you mean. Well, perhaps we'll soon be hearing that.
- [13:17]
Evan Osnos
I expect we will. And it is fourth point. Trump is 76, and that is one of the most helpful things that Biden's got going for.
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Susan Glasser
Absolutely. Like the idea that it's a choice between two people and Donald Trump's age was actually a factor that was used successfully against him.
- [13:31]
Jane Mayer
I just wanna say one thing about that is often not said about Biden's situation right now, which is because we're all so focused on his weaknesses and, you know, there's so much fear that he might sort of fall by the wayside and deliver Donald Trump back to the White House. But at the same time, he's actually in a pret advantageous position. If you look at it historically, he does not have a primary challenger. This is not Jimmy Carter having to deal with Teddy Kennedy. And on the Republican side, there are primary challengers and they have the front runner who is, as Susan said, facing multiple unbelievable legal situations and charges. But that said, when you look at that video, one of the things people noticed in this announcement video is. There are a lot of pictures of Kamala Harris, but. But there are not statements from her. She doesn't speak. Let's take a look at Harris. What do you think is going on with her? Is she a drag on the ticket? Is shewhat would you say is the state of her vice presidency? Susan, you've paid close attention to this.
- [14:34]
Susan Glasser
Well, look, I mean, she's clearly struggled. The White House doesn't deny this. In fact, one of the big stories this week was, you know, the carefully planted news in Axios that they were going to have top White House advisers to the president help rehabilitate her image. You had Ron Klain, the former chief of staff, considered to have been her kind of patron and support inside the White House, giving a big interview, saying she's getting a bum rap. I noticed, though very distinctly in that interview that he says, well, she's not given enough credit for her accomplishments, which he then did not go on to cite what exactly those were. I think Harris, there's so many factors that we can unpack, but we're just talking politics here. We're talking, is she or isn't she going to help the ticket in 2024? And the numbers are not good. Biden is one of the least popular presidents in modern times, aside from Donald Trump. He is really underwater with the voters. Well, Kamala Harris is even less popular. So one of the reasons is sheer numbers that you see Republicans attacking her. I think another reason is that it's a way for them to go after the Biden age issue without just being tacky about it. Although, by the way, Nikki Haley this week was outraged. As crass as I've ever seen any politician. She literally went on Fox News after Biden's announcement and she said, well, it's very likely that the president's going to die in the next five years. I think that we can all be very clear and say, with a matter of fact, that if you vote for Joe Biden, you really are counting on a President Harris because the idea that he would make it until 86 years old is not. Is not something that I think is likely. It's why I've continued to say, and therefore, a vote for Biden is a vote for Harris. So that is about as crass and even ghoulish and as Evan said, like, okay, the campaign is already ghoulish and it's essentially one week old in its formal sense.
- [16:31]
Jane Mayer
She's like as charming as someone selling you a life insurance policy. It's the Actual argument, you know, unbelievable.
- [16:40]
Evan Osnos
Nikki Haynes turning on the charge.
- [16:42]
Susan Glasser
But I don't know, really the broader answer, actually. And I'm curious. I've talked with people, as I'm sure all three of us have, being here in Washington doing reporting. I've talked with people in the Biden administration who work directly with Harris. Some of these very unflattering accounts, I can say firsthand, are coming from inside the room. It's not being made up just by Republicans. In fact, the criticism of her has come from those who have observed her firsthand or worked closely with her. Evan, why do you think that is?
- [17:14]
Jane Mayer
I mean, do you hear this, too? I mean, it seems there's a fair amount of scuttlebutt about personnel problems in her office. What do you hear?
- [17:21]
Evan Osnos
Yeah, I mean, this is one of the. A story that's kind of been recurring in various places over the course of the last couple of years. And it's, you know, it generally adheres to a few ideas. One, that it's a sort of insular office, that there's just a mood, a tempo, a sort of a sense of low morale in the vice president's office. There's been a lot of staff turnover. I think that the fact is that this is in the beginning, this partly was coming from elsewhere in the White House. There's been an effort over the course of the last couple years to try to push back on this. And one of the things that her friends and supporters will say is that they feel that she's being held to an unfair standard, that if you had the head of an office who was a guy, let's say a white man, then he would be. It would be described as a sort of tough, take no prisoners kind of place. But in her case, it's being described as a place in turmoil in which the boss is cut off and not respectful or responsive to people. And I think there is a way in which we have to take that very seriously, that I think her presence, her role in this administration from minute one has been under such an intense spotlight. And I think just thinking about it on a personal basis, just the level of pressure on her is extraordinary because she came in, not only was she the. The first black woman, first South Asian, first female vice president, all of these are just extraordinary levels of scrutiny that they bring. And on top of it, people were saying, and is she gonna be the heir to the oldest president? And all of that, I think, made it. Let's just say that it was not a particularly forgiving Washington in which she was arriving.
- [19:00]
Jane Mayer
I mean, she was not a very safe choice really for Biden to make in a way. I mean, she was a bit of a gamble for him. She wasn't very well known, even not spending a long time in the Senate. I mean, I do, I follow a lot, watch online how the right handles her. And she has been just their favorite target, along with maybe a couple other women of color. You know, Alexandria Ocasio of Cortez, you know, she to some extent maybe is moving into the slot that Nancy Pelosi had. There's a certain amount of sort of reflexive sexism and racism that definitely she is, I think you can say, incontrovertibly the recipient of. But she's had some tough issues that she was handed to. Did they give her the dogs of the issues to deal with? I mean, wasn't it immigration and voting rights, two really tough things to try to fix in this country? But, you know, maybe that's. What do you think, Susan? Has she muffed the issues she had?
- [19:57]
Susan Glasser
Well, I wouldn't say that she has solved the border problems or the immigration issues. And you know, you're right, those are not an ideal portfolio for a politician looking to make her mark in the country.
- [20:14]
Jane Mayer
The political scene will be back in just a moment. Right now we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [20:54]
Susan Glasser
The vice presidency is a pretty crappy job. And historically that's been the case. Kamala Harris is not the first vice president to face these issues. While she is the first woman, the first woman of color, she's not the first vice president to struggle with exactly these problems about what? What exactly is her portfolio? What has she done? What has she accomplished? How can she be both loyal and successful? We all remember John Nance Garner, who was one of FDR's vice president, saying, it's a job that's not worth a bucket of warm spit, by the way.
- [21:28]
Evan Osnos
He didn't say spit. But that's the family friendly version, right?
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Susan Glasser
Exactly. Well, this is a family friendly podcast, but I think it's worth recalling here because I'm struggling as I'M sure you are to say, what is it that she has done that's successful? I do think these issues of her own management, they're not new to the vice presidency. These were issues that dogged her Senate office and that accompanied her presidential campaign, which, by the way, was so short lived she didn't even make it to the voting in 2020. And that was a campaign that was riven by conflicts not only about personnel, but I think, more relevant to this political discussion about who is Kamala Harris as a politician, why is she running for national office? What does she hope to accomplish? And that's, I think, the critique that's much more relevant than issues of why she does or doesn't have a communications director at this given moment. I think, to me, the question I have is much more what animates Kamala Harris besides personal ambition? What is her principle for potentially stepping in tomorrow to the toughest job and the most powerful job in the world? What has she done? She certainly has seemed to come alive more, I would say, in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision throwing out Roe versus Wade. This is the one, I think, kind of political winner of an assignment that she's been handed by the Biden team, which is to be kind of the point person on the renewed fight for reproductive rights around the country. She seems much more engaged and vibrant when she's making those speeches. She gave a big speech about that this week at Howard University.
- [23:14]
Jane Mayer
I trust the women of America. I trust the people of America to make decisions about theirselves.
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Susan Glasser
I trust them. And so don't get in our way.
- [23:29]
Jane Mayer
Cause if you do, we're gonna stand.
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Susan Glasser
Up and we're gonna organize and we're gonna speak up and we're gonna say, we're not having that. We not playing that. And so you can begin to see sort of the glimmerings of what, you know, might be something that really personally engages her in the job. But I think it's fair to say up until now, for the last couple years, I would have a hard time identifying what it is she's wanted to be besides a loyal vice president, which is a tough thing to be.
- [23:58]
Evan Osnos
One of the constraints, just a functional constraint on what she was able to do in the first couple of years was defined by the fact that The Senate was 50, 50, which meant, as people remember, that the vice president casts the deciding vote and people think, oh, well, how often does that really happen? Well, in her case, she did it at least 39 times. And there have been times where Joe Biden never did it in the vice presidency. I mean, this is not an ordinary. Because the fact that she had to do all that meant that she really couldn't be very far from the Senate, literally couldn't be more than 24 hours away. The times that she has gone overseas, in a couple of cases, there's been value to it. I mean, some of her supporters will say that her visit to Munich shortly before Putin's invasion of Ukraine, in which she sort of established America's level of concern and focus on it, they would say that that was a success. They'll also point to her visit to Thailand for the APEC conference. Look, the point is that she didn't have as much room to run as other vice presidents.
- [24:54]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, that's creating on a curve. I'm sorry, Evan. Like, when Joe Biden was a vice president, he was handed major foreign policy issues to negotiate. Actually, you can argue about whether, as you know, well, he was in charge of the question of whether the United States would stay in Iraq, which it ultimately did not end up doing. You could argue that was one of the precursor moments to isis. In a more positive sense, Biden took his foreign policy expertise as the former chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee and was a key person dealing with the countries on Russia's periphery and trying to reassure them and to come up with a new strategy for countering Russia.
- [25:30]
Jane Mayer
I mean, he was supposed to have been the point man with the Senate for Obama a lot of the time also. And because he knew the Senate and didn't always work out very well.
- [25:37]
Susan Glasser
But it's a real assignment, though, we have to say, like, sure, showing up at the Munich Security Conference is not a foreign policy triumph.
- [25:44]
Jane Mayer
Well, all right. I actually thought something that Ron Klain said when he was both chief of staff to Biden when he was in the Vice presidency and also in the presidency. So he has a pretty good perspective on the differences between these two jobs. And I thought something he said was very smart, which was, we're in a country that loves the number one. We're in a country that venerates power and wants to see the big shot and the boss being number two. Not so much. I mean, you look like a chump. You are the person who's, as I described, Mike Pence at one point. You know, he had that sort of the gaze of Nancy Reagan as he looked up at Trump. It's not surprising. If you look back, I counted, if you go back to 1976, only 2 of the vice presidents have successfully run for President. And one of those was Biden, who didn't do it immediately. He was passed over. And it was Hillary Clinton who got the nod to run from Obama in 2016, and he had to kind of wait it out. And then he came back and he won. But it's not a great launching pad. And, you know, I remember there was a great statement I loved, which was from Lyndon Johnson, about this. And he was asked by Clare Boothe Luce, why would you want that crummy job? And he said, well, well, darlin', I'm a gambling man, and this is the only chance I've got. So, you know, so people take it in high hopes that, you know, it's gonna be the thing that's gonna get them to the White House. But on the way there, they often don't look good. A lot of them. Look back at the list of them. I mean, look at Dan Quayle. The only word you remember is potato. That he told some kid that he'd spelled it wrong when the kid had spelled it right in a spel. I mean, it's just. It's not a good showcase of a job.
- [27:28]
Susan Glasser
You know, Jane, it's funny that you brought up lbj, because I have to say, if you read the volume of Robert Caro's incredible biography series of lbj, his volume on LBJ and the vice presidency is literally the portrait of misery in Washington. More vivid and devastating than any I've ever read.
- [27:48]
Jane Mayer
Totally. Who likes that job?
- [27:50]
Evan Osnos
Corn pone. They called him Uncle Corn Pone. That was what Bobby Kennedy was calling him.
- [27:54]
Susan Glasser
Yeah. The cool kids in the White House did not like lbj.
- [27:57]
Evan Osnos
And there was actually a similar kind of dynamic, honestly, between the Obama Bidens. I mean, that was part of the simmering just below the surface.
- [28:05]
Susan Glasser
Absolutely. They had the sort of like, you know, sharp guys in skinny suits feel to them. The Dan Quill example is an interesting one, actually, in the context of talking about 2024 and Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Because as much as we remember Dan Quayle as almost the kind of proverbial loser vice president, I don't think there's anybody who would say that the reason that George H.W. bush lost reelection after a single term was Dan Quayle. That as much as he was perceived and constantly written about as kind of a bad vice president, Bush went through a kind of brief flirtation with the idea, should we dump him from the ticket? Concluded, as all other modern presidents have, that that's a political dis. You know, there was endless speculation about Biden My guess is that he didn't consider for one minute getting rid of Harris for the reasons that it would so alienate important Democratic constituencies, not to mention call into question his own judgment in picking her in the first place. But this is the big question, which is can she or would she possibly be a drag on the actual ticket in 2024? Would she affect the outcome? I'm very dubious of that. As much as Republicans are attacking her and will continue, I think, to very vicious attack her, it's hard to imagine that that is decisive. In the end, this is going to be about Joe Biden. The choice he made this week was a very risky choice. He chose at already being the oldest president ever to run for reelection so that at the end of his second term he would be 86 years old. He did it for some very good reasons. He has compiled an impressive record at a time when people didn't think it was possible to pass some of the bills he did. He has been a staunch advocate of freedom around the world, standing up to Russia. He has shown that he is willing to take on Trump and Trumpism. But at the same time, it's a very risky decision he made. And I think that in the end, if he makes it all the way Until November of 2024, it's going to be a referendum on him.
- [30:13]
Jane Mayer
Evan, you have pretty good insights into Biden land. Do you think that he ever really considered not running in a serious way?
- [30:23]
Evan Osnos
I think that the question that we began the day with is a key one, which is is there another Democrat that he thought could win? And the judgment at the moment not only of him, but others is there is not. And you have to remind yourself one of the things that this launch was very good at was taking you back for a painful moment to what it felt like in a trip Trump presidency. I was down this week near the White House, standing outside of St. John's Episcopal Church. Remember that is the scene people will remember that indelible moment where there was tear gas that was unleashed on protesters. And then Donald Trump kind of came out of the White House and held a Bible in front. It was really at one of the real low moments of 2020. And I was there and it was the fence, the wall that was around the White House was gone. It was a spring day and I had this of sort of like when the ball has reached the height of its arc and you don't quite know which direction it's going to go before it lands. And it's a feeling both. It was like okay, we're at the beginning of the next chapter here, and I think we have to take quite seriously. I know we get pretty dismissive of the language around the soul of a nation and this sort of stuff, but I actually think if you take yourself back to what this choice really was about, what it was about in 2020 and what it will be about in 2024, it really is less than a referendum on the character of this country and what it is that we want to be. And I think sometimes in Washington, we snicker. That sounds a little grand and so on, but actually that's what this will come down to again, if Donald Trump is in fact going to be the nominee. All of this question about how serious was everybody, it's really going to come down to something as grave and fundamental as are we going to go back down that path. And I think Americans, and I may well be wrong, are not going to choose that.
- [32:19]
Jane Mayer
Well, I think the gamble that you pointed out of taking the word freedom back from the right wing and trying to package Biden as the protector of freedoms, personal freedoms, freedom to vote, all of this is a really interesting sort of move politically because for a long time that kind of language has been owned by the other side. And I assume they must have focus grouped it to death and figured that it sells well also to independent voters who they really need to bring back, particularly maybe on reproductive rights, kind of freedom for suburban women. And I think that's a very interesting play. I mean, it's beyond Biden himself. It's a matter of interest to the Democratic Party, if they can try to position it to have values that are values that have been somewhat subsumed by the other side for a long time. So I'll be curious to see if that works.
- [33:13]
Susan Glasser
Basically, yeah, it's the recapturing in a way of a form of patriotism that as the Republican Party has basically killed off Reaganism. Right. What we've seen in the last few years is a transition from the party of Ronald Reagan to the party of Donald Trump, which has a different kind of catechism, different ideology. And it was Reagan who back in 1964 gave this famous speech, a Time for Choosing, in which he really was the one who. Who sort of co opted freedom as the kind of Republican brand for a couple generations, really, of American politics. And he framed politics as a choice between freedom and security. And I think it is a radical decision, a really interesting decision, for Biden to try to take that back in the same way that you see Democrats now Talking a lot more about American values and American democracy. Why are they doing that? Because the Republican Party has become the party of Donald Trump. It's become the party of people who are willing to charge into their own capitol and smash it when they didn't get their way, when they didn't follow the rule of law and a rule of law country. And so I think that that's the crisis and that's the moment and that's the precipice that we kind of leapt over, unfortunately, back in the actual Trump presidency. You know, that was a moment that you just sort of can't undo. And that's why I think Biden has also broadened his campaign. He's no longer running just against Donald Trump the man, which is, if you look at his video from 2019, that's what it was. This man is essentially an aberration. He is a gross departure from the American tradition of presidents. Now you have four years later, this man and the philosophy that he represents. Trump and the MAGA Republicans are the target of the Biden 2024 campaign. And I think correctly so, because what we're seeing is that it wasn't a one off with Donald Trump, that it is actually the transformation and the radicalization of the Republican Party that now is at issue. And so I think the stakes are very high because it's both about the question of defeating Donald Trump if he becomes the nominee again, but also more broadly, how does a Democratic Party contest this new magafied Trumpified Republican Party, not just now, but in the future? If you look at those who are seeking to succeed Donald Trump to get the mantle, they're as Trumpy, if not more so than he is in many key respects.
- [35:50]
Jane Mayer
So it's not just a replay then of 2020.
- [35:52]
Susan Glasser
Right.
- [35:52]
Jane Mayer
It's something big.
- [35:54]
Evan Osnos
If you look at the video, it's not an accident. I'm sure that at the very moment that he says MAGA extremists, they showed Ron DeSantis. So this is, if they need to, they've got to your point, Jane, why is this sort of. It's not exactly a replay, but it's something to it. I think that there has to be a really hard study and self scrutiny by the Democratic Party about why there is this gap, why it is that there has not been a more systematic effort to make sure that a rising generation of stars was given the space and the opportunity to lead and to thrive so that we're not in the position of depending on people who are at this stage in their career. And then I think there's one other reason perhaps why we're facing a kind of rerun, and that's because of the divided nature of the country, that there are all kinds of different voices who might want to contend to be the next face of the Democratic Party, whether it's Cory Booker, Gretchen Whitmer or Kamala Harris, and in some ways, Pete Buttigieg. But. But in some ways, there is a knock on every one of them. And that would be the, you know, I'm putting that in quotes. And I think part of the reason why it's very hard to consolidate behind any one person is because you're kind of requiring that person to have this huge preexisting name recognition and stature. And there aren't that many people who are in that position to do it.
- [37:19]
Jane Mayer
Well, there's also just the usual problem that someone in power is reluctant to give up power. I mean, no matter what else it says about the party and everything else, it comes down to the man, Joe Biden, his decisions. And his decision was like most presidents decision, which is to go for a second term if they can.
- [37:37]
Susan Glasser
Absolutely. Jane. Look, let's be real. The reason that we're having this conversation about Joe Biden running for reelection is because he spent his entire life basically wanting to be president, only became president in a very unlikely way on his third try. And as one of his friends was quoted saying this weekly, of course, he was always going to run again. It shouldn't have surprised anyone at all that we are where we are.
- [38:07]
Jane Mayer
This has been the political scene. I'm Jane Mayer. Thanks so much, Susan. Thanks so much, Evan.
- [38:11]
Evan Osnos
Thanks, Jane.
- [38:12]
Susan Glasser
So great to be with you guys.
- [38:16]
Jane Mayer
We had production assistance today from Alex d', Elia, Dan Richards, and Catherine Winter. Stephen Valentino is our executive producer. Our theme music's by Alison Layton Brown. We're taking a break next Friday, but we'll see you back in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening.
- [38:43]
Susan Glasser
I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial director.
- [38:46]
Evan Osnos
I'm Michael Colori, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture. Culture.
- [38:49]
Susan Glasser
And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of the biggest stories in tech.
- [39:08]
Evan Osnos
Right. So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you.
- [39:19]
Susan Glasser
Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.