John Cassidy and David Remnick on the Washington Post.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: John Cassidy and David Remnick on the Washington Post
Date: August 9, 2013
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guests: David Remnick (Editor, The New Yorker) and John Cassidy (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

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Overview

This episode examines the seismic sale of The Washington Post by the Graham family to Amazon founder Jeff Bezos. The conversation, featuring David Remnick and John Cassidy, explores what the sale signifies for the future of the Post, the challenges facing print journalism, and what Bezos's ownership might mean for the business and editorial directions of one of America’s most storied newspapers.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The End of an Era: The Sale of the Washington Post

• Emotional Resonance of the Sale

  • The hosts reflect on the emotional weight of the Graham family selling the Post, acknowledging the magnitude of the decision for a family deeply entwined with the paper’s legacy.
  • David Remnick on Donald Graham’s Reaction:

    “I think his heart is broken...He failed. And not because he’s a bad guy or an immoral guy… He failed because he and his colleagues had no answer or no sufficient answer for the forces that come along with the Internet.” ([02:12])

• Historical Perspective

  • Remnick shares his personal experience as a former Post reporter, describing his time at the paper shortly after the Watergate era as a moment of expansion and optimism, before the realities of the digital age reshaped the industry.
  • Notable Moment:

    “It was building outward. More foreign bureaus, more this, more staff, more sections. And when I left...the Internet had not arrived. It was late to the Internet.” ([03:39])

The Challenge of Print Journalism in a Digital World

• The Future of Printed Newspapers
  • Both Bezos and New York Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger Jr. have predicted the demise of print within one or two decades.
  • David Remnick’s Observation:

    “My kids, when they go to the doorstep and they see the Sunday Times, they look at it the way you would look at a comical dead dog… but that’s where the revenue is for now, a lot of it.” ([04:31])

Jeff Bezos: Savior, Industrialist, or Both?

• Business versus Altruism

  • The group debates whether Bezos’s purchase is a philanthropic act, a vanity project, or a business investment with potential political implications.
  • John Cassidy’s Skepticism:

    “People have ignored to some extent the possibility that he's actually doing this for business reasons…there's a history of rich, powerful businessmen buying newspapers for business reasons as well as political reasons.” ([05:05])

• Bezos’s Reputation in Tech Circles

  • Cassidy points out that while Steve Jobs is widely idolized, Bezos is most admired within the tech and internet world as an early visionary.
  • John Cassidy’s Comparison:

    “In Silicon Valley, people think newspapers, they’re not just dinosaurs, you know, they’re sort of algae on the face of the earth before the dinosaurs arrived.” ([06:17])

• Optimism About Innovation

  • Remnick expresses hope in Bezos’s innovative and long-term mindset but acknowledges the reality of his business and political interests.
  • David Remnick:

    “He’s a guy who is completely obsessed with the notion of the long term and the innovative, and he’s proved that out.” ([07:09])

Political Context and Potential Influence

• Comparing Bezos to Other Moguls

  • Unlike Rupert Murdoch, who is driven by explicit political agendas, Bezos is seen as more pragmatic, guided by business interests — though the distinction doesn’t preclude potential influence.

  • John Cassidy’s Analysis:

    “Bezos seems to be more interested in taking over the world than in molding it in a particular direction…Amazon.com is one of these giant online media companies...there’s going to be antitrust issues…there’s a bill in Congress now to give the states the right to force Amazon and other companies [to collect sales tax].” ([07:44])

  • Discussion of Labor and Tax Issues

    • Both labor practices and ongoing legal scrutiny (books, competition, sales tax) connected to Amazon may intersect with Post’s coverage.
    • John Cassidy:

      “Amazon is often accused of being a union buster, of paying very low wages, all those things. The company's got political interests.” ([08:54])

Editorial Independence: Lessons from the Past

• Role of Ownership in Editorial Independence
  • Remnick recounts advice from Post legend Ben Bradlee to always “have a great owner” and describes how New Yorker owner S.I. Newhouse respected editorial independence.
  • David Remnick on Proprietor’s Role:

    “That’s what Jeff Bezos has to give to the editorial team of the Washington Post. Otherwise, everything we've talked about here is secondary.” ([11:01])

The Road Ahead for the Washington Post

• Local versus National Strategy

  • Cassidy wonders if Bezos will push the Post back into national prominence or keep it focused on local news.
  • John Cassidy:

    “Is Bezos going to stick with a local strategy? Why would he be interested in that?...Surely he's going to, you know, try and take on the Times and go national again, make it a big, splashy newspaper.” ([11:16])

• Staff Morale and Prospects for Revival

  • Remnick describes the recent state of the newsroom as demoralized but hopes Bezos’s arrival will bring renewed optimism.
  • David Remnick:

    “People there are either pretending to be or are genuinely excited by the prospect of a renewed sense of the future. And I hope they're right.” ([13:10])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Remnick’s reflection on newspaper decline:

  “You saw its circulation cut in half, its newsroom cut almost in half…he had done it too many times. And he knew in his heart that the paper was less than it was.” ([02:12])

• On Bezos as an owner:

  “[Ben Bradlee said:] Make sure you have a great owner.” ([09:33])

• On the generational shift in media consumption:

  “My kids…look at [the paper] the way you would look at a comical dead dog.” ([04:31])

• Cassidy on Bezos’s ambitions:

  “Bezos seems to be more interested in taking over the world than in molding it in a particular direction.” ([07:44])

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 01:14–02:12 — Introduction & the Grahams’ decision to sell
• 02:12–03:39 — Emotional and historical context of the sale
• 04:20–05:05 — The end of print newspapers and Bezos's forecasts
• 05:05–06:17 — Cassidy on Bezos’s motivation and business strategy
• 06:17–07:44 — Tech culture’s view of newspapers; parallels to Steve Jobs
• 07:44–08:54 — Political interests, antitrust, tax, and labor issues tied to Amazon
• 09:33–11:13 — Editorial independence, lessons from New Yorker ownership
• 11:13–12:25 — The Post’s possible future strategies under Bezos
• 12:25–13:23 — Current mood in the Post newsroom and looking forward

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Final Thoughts

This episode captures a historical inflection point in American media, blending personal recollections, business analysis, and journalistic ethos. Remnick and Cassidy offer both hope and wariness for the future of the Post. The real test, all agree, will be in how Bezos wields his ownership: Will he safeguard editorial independence and invest for the long haul, or will commercial and political interests take precedence? The next chapter for the Washington Post — and for serious journalism — hangs in the balance.

Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about Politics. It's Thursday, August 8th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

It's pretty obvious that Jeff Bezos has.

[John Cassidy]

A certain strength when it comes to the future of news. You know, when you think about that growing and growing and growing digital and mobile audience, Jeff knows a lot about that.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was Donald Graham, the Washington Post's chief executive, talking on Monday about his family's decision to sell the paper to Jeff Bezos, the founder and CEO of Amazon, to talk about what this means for the future of the Post and print journalism and what Jeff Bezos hopes hopes to get from his investment. I'm joined by David Remnick and John Cassidy. David, the news of the sale of the Post this week was a shock to just about everyone, even though a lot of people knew that its circulation was dropping drastically, among other problems. You spoke to Graham at the beginning of the week, a former boss of yours. What did he tell you?

[David Remnick]

It's what he didn't tell me. I think his heart is broken. You know, this is somebody who was in a kind of traditional, born to be king way. His patrimony was to take on this newspaper and sustain its ethics and its ambitions and to make it both a business and a public trust. And he failed. He failed. And not because he's a bad guy or an immoral guy. In fact, he's just the opposite. He failed because he and his colleagues had no answer or no sufficient answer for the forces that come along with the Internet, the unintended consequences of something so enormous like the Internet, that was a fantastic business for so long. And then suddenly you saw its circulation cut in half, its newsroom cut almost in half. And the Grahams knew that the only way to make it with the Post financially was to undermine the thing itself, was to cut and cut and cut and. And he couldn't do it. He couldn't do it. He had done it too many times. And he knew in his heart that the paper was less than it was.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Let's wax nostalgic just for a moment or two, because your first job, I believe, was at the Washington Post.

[David Remnick]

I've only had two jobs, Dorothy. That's right, at the New Yorker and the Washington Post. And I was lucky enough to get a job at the Washington Post when I was very young.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And it wasn't all that long after Watergate, maybe a decade after Watergate, I.

[David Remnick]

Was walking into a newsroom that was. It wasn't long after Watergate, but it also wasn't long after Janet Cook. Right. So it was a colorful newspaper. It made big mistakes and it had huge triumphs. And it was. It was riding high. This was 1982, I guess. I was very, very young, and it was building outward. More foreign bureaus, more this, more staff, more sections. And when I left to come to the New Yorker in 1998, it was still more or less like that because the Internet had not arrived. It was late to the Internet. But in a way, even the newspapers that have been so called early or quicker on its feet, they're still suffering terribly.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Bezos said, I think last year that the one thing he was certain about was that there won't be printed newspapers in 20 years. Arthur Sulzberger Jr. Has said, you know, effectively the same thing about the New York Times.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, he committed a Washington gaffe. He made the mistake in an interview in Israel, I think it was Sulzberger did, of saying that he couldn't even tell you for sure that there'd be printed newspapers in 10 years. Of course, nobody can Be sure of that. You know, my kids, when they go to the doorstep and they see the Sunday Times, they look at it the way you would look at a comical dead dog. There's this big giant gut spilling device sitting on the mat. You know, it's ridiculous, but that's where the revenue is for now, a lot of it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

John, time for you to pipe in. Do you disagree with anything David's been talking about?

[David Remnick]

No.

[John Cassidy]

I mean, it is a great sort of epochal story. The sort of fall of the Grahams and the fall of the Washington Post. I've been more interested in the other side of it, you know, what Bezos brings to the party and what his interests are. Most of the people associated with the Post, they gave great praise to Bezos and says he's going to be a great proprietor and that's perfectly possible. Maybe he's a sort of knight in shining armor who's doing this for philanthropic reasons or as a vanity project and he's going to invest. I saw Bob Woodward saying The paper needs $100 million of investment in its journalists. Bezos can certainly afford that. Maybe he has got good motives, but I think people have ignored to some extent the possibility that he's actually doing this for business reason. And let's not forget he runs the biggest online retailer in the country, Amazon.com, a company which has got lots of political interests in Washington. So there's a history of rich men, rich, powerful businessmen buying newspapers for business reasons as well as political reasons. I wish the Post all the best, but I'm a bit skeptical about its future.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

I want to get back to the political interest in a second. But I'm curious. Steve Jobs is so idolized for his innovations at Apple, Bezos, not so much for his revolutionary approach to consumption and distribution. Why is that?

[John Cassidy]

I think he is idolized in the Internet community as a sort of great visionary. And Amazon.com, remember, started back in the mid-90s. It was a lot earlier than Google and Facebook and companies like that. He is the elder statesman of the Internet, if you like. That's why it's an interesting. I mean, I've been a bit critical, but it's a very interesting purchase because as David said, I mean, it's not just his kids. In Silicon Valley, people think newspapers, they're not just dinosaurs, you know, they're sort of algae on the face of the earth before the dinosaurs arrived. You know, it's deadwood media, to use the phrase. So for this great Internet visionary to come along and Say, well, hang on a minute. This newspaper is actually worth a quarter of a billion dollars, $250 million, inferring he's going to do great things with it. That is just an interesting business story, and everybody's interested to see if he does have good ideas. Maybe he is the man who can sort of marry the old media with the new media.

[David Remnick]

That's what makes me optimistic. He's a guy who is completely obsessed with the notion of the long term and the innovative, and he's proved that out. He's also, as John points out, a guy with political interests. He has certain tax imperatives that he's interested in, but he doesn't seem like Charles Foster Kane.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And what about John, one of your former bosses, Rupert Murdoch. He also does not seem like Rupert Murdoch when we talk about his political interests. He does not seemingly want to take over the post in order to advance a very clear political agenda. So what do you mean by his political interests?

[John Cassidy]

I mean, Murdoch's unusual because he has a burning political agenda, conservative one, and a burning business agenda to sort of take over the world. And they sort of mutually reinforce each other at various points. Bezos seems to be more interested in taking over the world than in molding it in a particular direction. So I don't expect him to be a sort of Hearst or a Murdoch in that sense, but when I'm talking about his interests. Amazon.com is one of these giant online media companies which have emerged in the last 10 or 15 years, which have some monopolistic tenets. In some ways, they sort of resemble the great trust that appeared at the end of the 19th century. And if you look at history, as these companies get bigger and bigger, inevitably the government's going to take an interest. There's going to be antitrust issues. There already is in Amazon, in things like the book industry. The Justice Department decided to sue Apple, one of its competitors, rather than suing Amazon. But a lot of people think Amazon is a predatory pricer, and they should have been the ones under inspection. There are tax issues, as David said, For 15 years now, Amazon has had this great advantage that they haven't had to collect sales taxes. That's changing. There's a bill in Congress now to give the states the right to force Amazon and other companies like.

[David Remnick]

And there's workplace conditions.

[John Cassidy]

And there's workplace conditions. Amazon is often accused of being a union buster, of paying very low wages, all those things. The company's got political interests. And I don't think Jeff Bezos is going to be Ordering, you know, the White House correspondent or the Justice Department correspondent to write particular stories. I don't think it's going to be anything like that. I just think, you know, as the proprietor of the Post, he does have the right to, if not dictate, at least have an influence on the editorial policies of the paper. And as the proprietor of the Post, you're just in a position that doors are open for you. People return your calls. You're a big player in Washington when you own the Washington Post, as we've seen with the Grahams over the last few decades.

[David Remnick]

To relate my job at the New Yorker to my years at the Post, when I was made the editor of the New Yorker, which was a rather sudden and bizarre moment in time 15 years ago, I called Ben Bradley, who was the legendary editor of the Post, and I said, you know, what do I need to know? I'm standing on one foot. Tell me everything I need to know. And he said, make sure you have a great owner. That was his voice we all imitated. And I didn't know anything about my owner. Contact with sign new house. He's got a lot to do. And it was minimal for writers like me. And it took a while for me to figure it out. What were his instincts? How did he regard his stance vis a vis the New Yorker and editorial independence? Because that's the thing we haven't talked about, and that's everything. And it took a while, and finally we had a story by Seymour Hersh, and I called Cy because I had read these books about Katharine Graham and Ben Bradlee, and he had what was called a no surprises rule. Don't surprise yourself proprietor with a story when it's already in print. So I called him up and I said, we have this story, and it's been checked, it's been lawyered, it's been edited. I believe in it. I think it's great. It's a pretty dangerous story. It says this one took bribes from that one, and so on and so forth. It was a pretty hot Seihurst investigative story. There was a long pause at the end of the phone, and he said, that sounds very interesting. I look forward to reading it. And that was the only conversation of its kind that we have ever had. That's what Jeff Bezos has to give to the editorial team of the Washington Post. Otherwise, everything we've talked about here is secondary.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

John, what do you think the future holds for the Washington Post under Bezos?

[John Cassidy]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the fascinating things going Ahead, what Bezos is actually going to do with the Post as a newspaper, I mean, as David said, it's a sort of hybrid in the past. It's a great metropolitan paper. It's got an absolute stranglehold on Washington and its environs, which was the basis of its business plan because it had a monopoly on local advertising. But at the same time, especially since the 1960s and 70s under Bradley and Landownian people. So it's had national and even international ambitions now in recent years, I think to some extent, it's sort of scaled back to its base, and they've concentrated more on the serving the region than national international news, although they have kept it up to some extent. But I think compared to the Times, when I was in Washington 20 years ago, reporting, you picked up the Post every day and maybe you picked up the Times. I think a lot of people in Washington now, it's the other way around. The Times is, you know, at least an equal. If not, if not in front of the Post. Is Bezos going to stick with a local strategy? Why would he be interested in that? He could have done that with the Boston Globe and he got it a lot cheaper. Surely he's going to, you know, try and take on the Times and go national again, make it a big, splashy newspaper. At least I assume he is.

[David Remnick]

I really hope he does, because a job of an editor and a publisher has absolutely to do with editorial integrity and energy and enterprise and all the rest. But if the business doesn't work, it's only a matter of time before the thing goes away. Kathryn Graham knew that. Donald Graham knew that. Everybody at the Post knew that. And that's why when you visited the newsroom of the Washington Post, it was a terrifying experience. It was just so down in the mouth. These really good, ambitious journalists, people in their 30s, wondering if they're going to be doing what they loved in their 40s. It was a terrible thing to see and as devastating to them as losing Don Graham is and that sense of connection to that legacy and as unsure as Bezos motivations may be, people there are either pretending to be or are genuinely excited by the prospect of a renewed sense of the future. And I hope they're right.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thank you both so much. John Cassidy is a staff writer and David Remnick is the New Yorker's editor. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[David Remnick]

You can subscribe to this and other free New Yorker podcasts in the itunes store. The weekly audio edition of the magazine is available at audible.com subscribers can read the magazine [e-mail] and also in the tablet edition on the iPad and the Kindle Fire. Foreign Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy jr. Charlemagne, the God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts from PRX.