The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Title: John Cassidy and Ryan Lizza review Hillary Clinton’s performance and her prospects
Date: February 1, 2013
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: John Cassidy, Ryan Lizza
Episode Focus: Assessing Hillary Clinton's legacy as Secretary of State as she steps down, her relationship with President Obama, and implications for her future in politics.

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden is joined by New Yorker writers John Cassidy and Ryan Lizza for a critical discussion on Hillary Clinton’s four-year tenure as Secretary of State. As Clinton steps aside for John Kerry, the panel evaluates her achievements, influence within the Obama administration, and the challenges and controversies that shaped her legacy. The conversation also examines the evolving Clinton-Obama partnership and the political dynamics at play, along with implications for Clinton’s future prospects.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Clinton as a Diplomat vs. Policy Architect

(02:09 – 03:42)

• Cassidy’s Assessment:
  • Clinton was "a great ambassador, not a great Secretary of State" because her tenure lacked a defining doctrine or major strategic vision.
  • She was "incredibly diligent," visited 112 countries, and logged nearly a million miles.
  • Her main role, envisioned by Obama, was as the U.S. frontperson abroad while the President focused on domestic challenges.
  • Historic Secretaries like Marshall or Kissinger are remembered for doctrine; Clinton's legacy lacks this overarching theme.
  • Quote (John Cassidy, 03:18):

    "There’s no real overarching theme… I don’t think they’re going to say, look, this was the Clinton Doctrine that she laid down."

Power Dynamics: State Department vs. White House

(03:48 – 04:41)

• Lizza’s Perspective:
  • Foreign policymaking has become increasingly centralized in the White House, especially under Obama.
  • The State Department focused more on implementing policies than shaping grand strategies.
  • Staff-level distrust between Clinton’s circle and National Security Council members eased but persisted.

Clinton's Record—Diplomatic Successes and Missteps

(05:06 – 07:53)

• Major Foreign Policy Areas:
  • Afghanistan: Clinton sided with the "hawks," favoring military engagement over drawdown; Lizza notes she "was on the wrong side" and that Biden and Holbrooke’s push for a smaller footprint proved more prescient.
    • Quote (Ryan Lizza, 05:39):

      "Holbrooke and Biden were pushing... to pull out and reduce our footprint... and Hillary Clinton aligned herself with the generals…"

  • Iran Sanctions: Clinton played a key diplomatic role in crafting UN sanctions, helping prevent a Russian or Chinese veto.
  • Libya Intervention: Clinton was forceful in forging the coalition that led to the UN-authorized intervention.
    • Lizza compares her coalition-building efforts to James Baker's in the Gulf War.
  • Pivot to Asia: Clinton worked to solidify alliances in Asia, including outreach to Burma and Vietnam—seen as a signature, if underappreciated, legacy.

The "Pivot to Asia" and U.S.–China Relations

(07:54 – 08:49)

• Cassidy’s Insight:
  • The "pivot to Asia" is significant but underacknowledged, with China viewing it unfavorably as an anti-China policy.
  • Managing U.S.-China relations is a 21st-century challenge that may eclipse current Middle East conflicts in importance.
  • Quote (John Cassidy, 08:21):

    "How America deals with China is the big issue of the 21st century. It’s more important than dealing with a few, you know, sort of ragtag Islamic militias in North Africa."

Clinton–Obama Relationship

(08:50 – 11:11)

• Mutual Pragmatism:
  • Despite a contentious 2008 campaign, Obama and Clinton developed a strong, pragmatic working relationship.
  • Clinton accepted a primarily implementer, not policy-maker, role—remaining publicly loyal and avoiding criticism of the administration.
  • The 60 Minutes joint appearance was viewed as both a reflection of their relationship and, perhaps, political theater with future implications.
  • Quote (John Cassidy, 10:58):

    "It wasn’t an endorsement of Hillary in 2016, but if you were Joe Biden… you wouldn’t have been too pleased to see the President out there saying what a great job Hillary did."

Foreign Policy Achievements and GOP Critique

(11:20 – 12:45)

• Cassidy’s Argument:
  • Obama and Clinton neutralized the traditional GOP critique of Democratic weakness on defense, notably by extending "Bush’s war on terror," increasing drone strikes, and being tough on Al Qaeda.
  • The main conservative complaint is Obama’s reluctance to use force against Iran.
  • Quote (John Cassidy, 12:24):

    "The President oversees the kill list, or at least approves them. How can a hawkish Republican criticize that?"

Benghazi and Clinton’s Responsibility

(12:46 – 14:42)

• Benghazi Crisis:
  • The killing of four U.S. diplomats in Libya, including Amb. Christopher Stevens, marks a prominent black mark, but Clinton took "ultimate responsibility."
  • Cassidy and Lizza agree that although the tragedy is a stain, it’s unlikely to damage Clinton politically long-term.
  • Quote (John Cassidy, 13:17):

    "If you’re the Secretary of State and you lose your first ambassador… in what is effectively a war zone… that’s a disaster. Given that, I think she’s handled it pretty well."

  • Quote (Ryan Lizza, 14:10):

    "I doubt [Benghazi] is going to be an issue that’s going to decide her future presidential ambitions."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• John Cassidy on Clinton’s legacy (03:18):

  "There’s no real overarching theme… I don’t think they’re going to say, look, this was the Clinton Doctrine that she laid down."

• Ryan Lizza on Afghanistan (05:39):

  "Holbrooke and Biden were pushing... to pull out and reduce our footprint... and Hillary Clinton aligned herself with the generals…"

• John Cassidy on US–China relations (08:21):

  "How America deals with China is the big issue of the 21st century."

• Cassidy on Obama’s political positioning (12:24):

  "The President oversees the kill list, or at least approves them. How can a hawkish Republican criticize that?"

• On Benghazi (13:17):

  "If you’re the Secretary of State and you lose your first ambassador… that’s a disaster. Given that, I think she’s handled it pretty well." (John Cassidy)

• On political impact of Benghazi (14:10):

  "I doubt [Benghazi] is going to be an issue that’s going to decide her future presidential ambitions." (Ryan Lizza)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:09 – 03:42: Cassidy distinguishes between ambassadorial vs. doctrinal Secretary of State roles
• 03:48 – 04:41: Lizza details White House dominance in policymaking
• 05:06 – 07:53: Clinton’s record on Afghanistan, Iran, the Arab Spring, Libya, and the pivot to Asia
• 07:54 – 08:49: Cassidy on the significance and shortcomings of the pivot to Asia
• 08:50 – 11:11: Discussion of Clinton-Obama relationship and 2016 political undertones
• 11:20 – 12:45: GOP critiques, drone warfare, and Obama’s legacy
• 12:46 – 14:42: Analysis of Benghazi, Clinton’s response, and political implications

Conclusion

The episode delivers a nuanced evaluation of Hillary Clinton's tenure as Secretary of State—praising her stamina, diplomatic efforts, and successes in coalition-building while critiquing the lack of transformative doctrine or vision. The discussion contextualizes her actions within broader political shifts, White House-centrism, and the realities of contemporary American diplomacy. Both Cassidy and Lizza remain skeptical that her missteps, such as Benghazi, will define her legacy or derail future ambitions.

Listeners come away with a deeper understanding of the complexities, constraints, and political calculations that defined Clinton’s service, as well as the evolving nature of American foreign policy leadership.