Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: John Dean Talks to Amy Davidson About Nixon and Trump
Date: March 6, 2017
Host: Amy Davidson
Guest: John Dean, former White House Counsel to President Nixon
Episode Overview
This episode of The Political Scene features a conversation between The New Yorker’s Amy Davidson and John Dean, who served as White House counsel to President Nixon during the Watergate scandal. With the Trump administration facing early investigations into potential Russian ties ("Russiagate"), Davidson and Dean explore the parallels between Nixon's presidency and Donald Trump’s, focusing on issues of presidential character, the dangers of authoritarian tendencies, media relations, and the corrosive effects of scandal and cover-up.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Echoes of Nixon in Trump’s Presidency
- Parallels in Personality:
John Dean observes uncanny similarities between Nixon and Trump, particularly in their use of language and the cultivation of enemies.- Dean: “He is very much Nixon's heir. Like Nixon, you hear Trump speak in the third person ... I see it most in the fact they both look for their enemies and hold great resentment towards those they perceive as their enemies.” [03:08]
- Authoritarian Traits:
Both Nixon and Trump demonstrate authoritarian personalities, but Trump is even more pronounced in this aspect.- Dean: “Nixon did it behind closed doors. On a 10-point scale, I'd put Nixon maybe somewhere between 6 and 7. I'd put Trump at a 10. He is a poster boy for an authoritarian personality.” [05:16]
The Dangers of a Nixonian Environment
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Atmosphere of Distrust and Performance:
Nixon's presidency was characterized by secrecy and a disconnect even within his own staff, with much of his behavior being theatrical for public consumption.- Dean: “When I would go in with group sessions, as opposed to when I had later one-on-ones, I realized he was acting ... a lot of theater. I hear that on the tapes.” [04:13]
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Corrosive Moral Climate:
Dean describes the Nixon White House as a “moral abyss,” where distrust, deception, and suspicion of enemies created a toxic work environment.
The Cultivation of Enemies and Obsession with Leaks
- Pursuit of Leakers:
Nixon’s obsession with finding and punishing leakers set a destructive precedent that Dean sees echoed in Trump’s approach to the press and investigations.- Dean: "Nixon’s problems emanated from his deep concern about leaks ... [He] called the FBI just as Trump has done and pressed them to start investigating ... never found the leaker by doing all that and seldom do you." [08:09, 09:24]
- “Enemies List” Behavior:
Both administrations fostered environments driven by resentment and a sense of besiegement from within and without.
Handling Investigations and Cover-Ups
- Contrast with Transparency:
Dean explains that truly innocent administrations respond to investigations by fully cooperating, unlike Nixon and, in his view, Trump.- Dean: “If there's any lesson from Watergate or from Iran Contra or the Lewinsky affair, it is that if you don't have a problem ... you say to the FBI, come in and talk to my staff ... That's just not the way you innocent people deal with these issues.” [06:24]
Historic Precedents and Constitutional Risk
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Comparisons to Watergate:
The conversation draws explicit parallels: both Nixon and Trump tried to influence the FBI and dealt with questions about foreign interference in U.S. politics.- Dean: “Nixon had been accused during the campaign by Lyndon Johnson in '68 of trying to interfere ... Just recently, we found out that was true.” [08:09]
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Treatment of the Judiciary:
In light of Trump’s public attack on a federal judge, Dean reflects on the constitutional dangers if a President refuses to respect judicial authority.- Dean: “If he had defied the Supreme Court, he clearly would have been impeached just for that ... These are how you create very serious constitutional crises that can end a democracy.” [10:48]
The Role and Duty of the Press
- Watergate and the Media:
Contrary to popular mythology, Dean notes reportorial work did not break Watergate, but the press was essential in keeping the issue alive.- Dean: “The press never cracked the Watergate story ... What they did do is they kept it on the front page, they kept the pressure on the story, and they made it a big deal inside the Beltway.” [12:21]
- Forcing the President’s Hand:
Dean credits media scrutiny with influencing outcomes in both the Nixon and Trump administrations, suggesting persistent questioning can ultimately force Presidents to reveal their true character.- Dean: “I think that is one of [the press’s] roles.” [12:55]
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
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On Trump as Nixon’s Heir
“He is very much Nixon's heir ... They both look for their enemies and hold great resentment towards those they perceive as their enemies.”
— John Dean [03:08] -
On Authoritarianism
“On a 10-point scale, I'd put Nixon maybe somewhere between 6 and 7. I'd put Trump at a 10.”
— John Dean [05:16] -
On the White House’s Response to Investigations
"If you don't have a problem ... you say to the FBI, come in and talk to my staff ... That's just not the way you innocent people deal with these issues.”
— John Dean [06:24] -
On Pressuring the FBI
“Pushback on an FBI investigation of the White House is better known as the cover-up.”
— John Dean (referring to his own tweet) [05:46] -
On the Press’s Role
“The press never cracked the Watergate story ... they kept the pressure on.”
— John Dean [12:21] -
On Constitutional Crisis
“If he had defied the Supreme Court, he clearly would have been impeached just for that. ... These are how you create very serious constitutional crises that can end a democracy.”
— John Dean [10:48]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:35 — Introduction to Nixon-Trump Comparisons
- 03:08 — Dean on Trump as Nixon’s Heir
- 05:16 — Authoritarian Personality Scale
- 06:24 — How Innocent Administrations Cooperate
- 08:09 — Nixon’s Leaks Obsession and Parallels to Trump
- 09:24 — Watergate, Wiretaps, and Hunted Leakers
- 10:48 — Trump, the Judiciary, and Constitutional Crisis
- 12:21 — The Press’s Role During Watergate and Today
- 12:55 — The Importance of Press Tenacity
Conclusion
John Dean’s conversation with Amy Davidson sheds historical light on the ongoing challenges facing the Trump administration in 2017, revealing the enduring dangers of presidential resentment, secrecy, and authoritarian impulses. Highlighting the lessons of Watergate, Dean emphasizes how a vigilant press and respect for constitutional norms are essential to American democracy, while cautioning that without transparency and restraint, history is bound to repeat itself.