Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: Jonathan Blitzer and Sarah Stillman on Immigration in the Trump Era
Date: January 15, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Jonathan Blitzer, Sarah Stillman

Main Theme:

This episode explores the dramatic shifts in U.S. immigration policy during the first year of the Trump administration. David Remnick speaks with New Yorker staff writers Sarah Stillman and Jonathan Blitzer, both of whom have reported extensively on immigrant communities, to discuss policy changes, their real-world consequences, the political psychology behind anti-immigrant rhetoric, and potential solutions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Changes and Continuities in Deportation Policy

• Notable Statistic: Immigration arrests rose by 40% over the previous year, but overall deportation numbers had not yet surpassed those under Obama (01:29, 02:16).
• Sarah Stillman:
  • Trump’s administration had dramatically increased ICE arrests and created a significant court backlog, but the expected spike in deportations was slow to materialize due to the congested legal process.
  • “We've seen a tremendous backlog in the courts.” (02:16)
• Jonathan Blitzer:
  • Notes over 600,000 cases stalled in immigration courts, with no political will to hire sufficient judges to address the backlog.
  • “The backlog is a huge issue… there are over 600,000 cases that have been stalled in immigration courts.” (02:46)

2. The Immigrant Experience Under Current Policy

• Access to Justice: Many detainees spend extended periods in detention, often over a year, with minimal or no access to legal counsel (03:05).
• Sarah Stillman:
  • Children as young as three are required to represent themselves in court.
  • “You've actually seen immigration judges in the federal system say that a three year old has to represent themselves in court.” (03:19)

3. Trump’s Approach and Policy Shifts

• Method vs. Chaos:
  • Blitzer argues that the administration’s “winging it” approach is actually effective for their agenda, as they swiftly removed Obama-era priorities limiting ICE’s focus to criminals or public safety threats (03:45, 04:13).
  • “It’s actually been quite easy for them to remove some of the protections that the Obama administration put in place.” (03:45)
• Effect:
  • Now, it’s effectively “open season” on undocumented immigrants, with broad ICE authority to target anyone in the country illegally (04:14).

4. Sanctuary Cities and Legal Tensions

• Aggressive Stance:
  • Trump administration has openly threatened legal action against politicians in sanctuary cities. Texas’ SB4 law (held up in litigation) exemplifies this trend; it allows for prosecution of sheriffs who don’t comply with ICE requests (04:40–04:51).
• Real-life Consequence:
  • Stillman discusses a case in Texas where a man was deported after a minor offense and later killed (05:44).

5. Dangers Facing Deported Immigrants

• Violence in “Northern Triangle”:
  • Many deportees sent to Guatemala, El Salvador, or Honduras face grave violence, sometimes with fatal consequences (06:00).
• Sarah Stillman:
  • “We fail to realize how profoundly violent it has become in the countries known as the Northern Triangle...” (06:00)

6. Due Process and Expedited Removal

• Policy Shift History:
  • Expedited removal policies, first enacted under Bill Clinton, now allow instant deportation for some, removing the chance for judicial review (06:23).
  • Stillman argues at minimum, migrants should have the right to present their case before a judge (06:21).

7. Political Psychology and Rhetoric

• Trump’s Base and Broader Opinion:
  • Only a small, highly anti-immigrant part of the population supports harsh policies. DACA, for example, is widely backed across party lines (07:18).
  • “Over two thirds of Americans support [DACA], even some 60% of Republicans think DACA recipients should have a pathway to citizenship.” (07:18)
• Rhetoric of Fear:
  • Trump’s success centers on conflating immigrants with criminality, focusing on imagery like “bad hombres” (07:18).

8. Numbers vs. Narrative on Crime and Jobs

• Crime:
  • Immigrants, both legal and undocumented, commit crimes at lower rates than the native-born and are more likely to be crime victims (07:58).
  • “Immigrants…commit crimes at lower rates than people who are native born US citizens.” – Stillman (07:58)
• MS-13 on Long Island:
  • Blitzer explains that heightened focus on MS-13 has led to combined racial profiling and victimization of the Central American community (08:34–09:44).
  • “It’s empowered ICE and local law enforcement to go after people who for the most part tend to be the victims of this gang crime rather than the perpetrators of it.” (09:44)
  • ICE is notably less accountable than local law enforcement (10:10).
• Jobs:
  • Both guests refute the claim that immigrants steal jobs from Americans. In fact, immigrants fill crucial roles in the economy, and past anti-immigration measures (like in Alabama) led to agricultural and economic crises (11:13–11:50).
  • “Immigrants, undocumented immigrants, increasingly do the work that Americans wouldn’t want to do… the economic research on this is extensive.” – Blitzer (11:13)
  • “Fruit rotting on the vine in Alabama because there were just not the workers there to do the labor.” – Stillman (11:50)
• Stakeholders Against Harsh Policies:
  • Business, education, law enforcement, and other sectors generally do not support aggressive crackdowns (12:11).

9. What is the Liberal/Comprehensive Solution?

• Legal Protections:
  • Stillman: Reiterates the need to uphold U.S. and international laws protecting asylum seekers and refugees (12:49).
• Comprehensive Reform:
  • Blitzer: Emphasizes that bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform nearly passed in 2013 and would address the status of 12 million undocumented individuals already present, not simply open the borders (13:10).
  • “This refers to actually normalizing or in some way stabilizing their status. There is a political will to solve this problem, but it is so much easier to speak as a kind of demagogue on this issue.” (13:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sarah Stillman on children representing themselves:
  “You’ve actually seen immigration judges in the federal system say that a three year old has to represent themselves in court by themselves.” (03:19)

• Jonathan Blitzer on the Trump approach:
  “The administration’s way is actually quite effective in the immigration context… it’s actually been quite easy for them to remove some of the protections that the Obama administration put in place.” (03:45)

• On the reality of violence back home:
  “Many of us fail to realize how profoundly violent it has become in the countries known as the Northern Triangle, so Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador.” – Stillman (06:00)

• On ICE’s low accountability:
  “ICE is definitely notorious for being much less scrupulous even than ordinary police.” – Blitzer (10:10)

• On the economic impact of immigrants:
  “Immigrants, undocumented immigrants, increasingly do the work that Americans wouldn’t want to do... the economic research on this is extensive.” – Blitzer (11:13)

• On policy solutions:
  “We have very clear international and domestic law on protecting people who are asylum seekers and refugees… that’s a very good starting point.” – Stillman (12:49)
  “When you think about what comprehensive immigration reform would do, it would deal with a population that’s already here.” – Blitzer (13:10)

Timeline of Key Segments

• 01:29–02:16: Introduction, overview of arrest statistics, and initial context
• 02:16–03:19: ICE activity, court backlogs, difficulties faced by detainees, and lack of legal counsel
• 03:45–04:40: Trump admin’s approach; removal of Obama-era priorities and open season for ICE
• 04:40–05:44: Sanctuary city policies, legal threats, and personal stories of deportation consequences
• 06:00–06:46: Life-threatening dangers for deportees to Central America
• 06:46–07:56: Political psychology, public opinion, and fear-based rhetorical strategies
• 07:58–08:17: Crime data refuting the immigrant criminality narrative
• 08:34–09:57: MS-13 in Long Island, racial profiling, and ICE overreach
• 10:10–10:54: ICE’s accountability versus local law enforcement
• 11:13–12:11: Economic myths, real impacts of anti-immigrant laws
• 12:24–13:10: Comprehensive reform, bipartisan efforts, and political barriers
• 13:10–14:13: Need for compassion and legal adherence in policy-making

Conclusion

Through data, personal stories, and sharp analysis, Stillman and Blitzer dismantle the major arguments used to support Trump’s restrictive immigration agenda while highlighting the complexity and urgency of humane, evidence-driven reform.