Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Talks to David Remnick About Politics and Mortality

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Title: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Talks to David Remnick About Politics and Mortality
Air Date: September 12, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

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Episode Overview

In this episode, David Remnick sits down with basketball legend, writer, and activist Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to discuss his political engagement, evolving views on race and society, the exploitation of college athletes, and issues of health and mortality for athletes. They reflect on Kareem’s activism from the Civil Rights era to the present, his perspective on education and opportunity in America, and his post-retirement writing career. The tone alternates between probing, reflective, straightforward, and warm, highlighting Abdul-Jabbar’s deep thinking and steady resolve.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Kareem’s Political Advocacy and the 2016 Election

• Why Speak Now?
  Abdul-Jabbar explains why he chose to appear at a political convention this year for the first time, underlining the urgency of the current political climate marked by racism and xenophobia.

  • “I wanted to go this year because I thought that whatever happens in this election will be very important for our country. And I wanted to take part and say whatever it was that I had to say.” – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar [02:57]
  • He notes previous invitations but emphasizes growing “tension and hatred” now making this moment “crucial.” [03:14]

• Racism, Xenophobia, and Trump
  Kareem attributes some of the nation’s unrest to demographic change and sees Trump exploiting these anxieties.

  • “A lot of people are noticing a change in our country...seeing that change taking place and not being able to do anything has made a lot of people uptight. And I think Donald Trump recognized that and decided to take advantage of it.” [03:55]

Sports, Activism, and Historical Continuity

• Refusing the Olympics & Civil Rights Influence
  Remnick frames Kareem’s career in the context of Muhammad Ali’s resistance, asking about his decision to forgo the ’68 Olympics.

  • Kareem says he’d likely play in the Olympics today: “There was a lot less incentive for me to forego the Olympics in years subsequent to 1968.” [04:40]
  • On the price for not playing: “I got criticized a lot, but...the American basketball team won the gold medal in 1968. So, nobody can blame me...I just moved on.” [04:53]

• Role Models and False Hopes
  They discuss a quote from James Baldwin and the complexity of being an “example” for others.

  • “Although you are proof it can be done, like a happy lottery winner waving a million dollar ticket, the odds are so astronomically against others that it sometimes feels as if you’re more the source of false hope and crushed dreams.” – (Remnick quoting Abdul-Jabbar’s book) [06:45]
  • Kareem: “Black Americans who are able to overcome the odds...people point to them as an example as to, well, why aren’t all black people that successful?” [07:06]
  • He credits his grandmother’s focus on education and discipline for helping him focus on his own potential, rather than external burdens of representation. [07:40]

On Education and Social Mobility

• Declining Opportunities
  Abdul-Jabbar voices concern over increased poverty and declining educational standards.
  • “We become too comfortable with mediocrity. American school kids now no longer lead the world in most academic disciplines...That’s a direct failure of our school system.” [06:03]
  • “People aren’t given the opportunity to get a first rate education and go on to college. It’s these kind of issues that really bother me.” [06:38]

College Athletics: Exploitation and Reform

• The Business of College Sports
  Kareem argues for fair compensation for college athletes, calling the tradition of “amateurism” hypocritical.
  • “College athletics generates billions of dollars in revenue and the college athletes don't get to share in that. People that run the NCAA have million dollar salaries.” [08:42]
  • On hypocrisy: “If the amateur experience was supposed to be so important, why aren't the coaches participating in it? They're taking home millions of dollars...” [09:32]
  • Recounts receiving support from businessman Sam Gilbert: “He scalped my tickets, which enabled me to have a few coins in my pocket.” [10:01]

The Dangers and Future of Football

• Football and CTE
  Kareem candidly discusses the dangers football players face, highlighting the toll of head injuries and early deaths:
  • “A number of my friends that play professional football are dead. A couple of them died this year...Ken Stabler, Jack Tatum’s dead.” [11:11]
  • “I don't know if it [football] is fixable, because I think the concussions are inevitable.” [11:48]
  • Remnick and Abdul-Jabbar discuss a possible future where football’s health problems could lead to its decline, much like boxing. [12:28]
  • Kareem: “If it doesn’t exist in the future, it’ll be for good reasons.” [12:28]

Athlete Health and Mortality

• Health After Retirement
  They talk about the health risks faced by retired athletes, particularly those of extraordinary size.
  • “A lot of guys, once they've stopped their professional career, they stop going to see doctors and don't see these things creeping up on them.” [13:17]
  • “Athletes think of themselves as so perfectly attuned to everything... So their health must be okay.” [13:31]

Life After Basketball

• Retirement and Writing
  • Kareem describes writing as a “crazy obsession, but it's fun and I wanted to do it.” [13:45]
  • On sports glory: “There probably are things that can match it, but it's really tough...The whole nation watches you and you have fans and friends all over the country.” [14:13]
  • Mixed feelings about fame and attention: “I wanted the opportunity to excel, but I also felt that it was also a lot of pressure.” [14:29]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I know that Donald Trump couldn’t tell the difference.” – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, satirically introducing himself as “Michael Jordan” at the Democratic National Convention [01:50]
• “We become too comfortable with mediocrity.” – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar [06:03]
• “College athletics generates billions of dollars in revenue and the college athletes don't get to share in that.” – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar [08:42]
• “I don't know if it [football] is fixable, because I think the concussions are inevitable.” – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar [11:48]
• “A lot of guys, once they've stopped their professional career, they stop going to see doctors and don't see these things creeping up on them.” – Kareem Abdul-Jabbar [13:17]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:40] Introduction of Kareem at the DNC and his political engagement
• [02:57] Kareem explains why this election, and his appearance, is crucial
• [03:55] Reflections on racism, demographic change, and Donald Trump
• [04:40] On refusing to play in the 1968 Olympics
• [06:03] Critique of America’s educational decline
• [08:42] Discussion of college athlete exploitation
• [11:11] The toll of football on players’ health
• [13:17] Athlete health and neglect in retirement
• [13:45] Transition to writing and post-basketball life

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Tone and Language

The conversation is intellectual, sharp, and personal, blending insight and candor. Remnick is probing but respectful; Abdul-Jabbar is measured, reflective, and direct, offering deep historical perspective and personal experience.

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Summary

This episode offers a rich exploration of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s political awakening in a volatile era, his advocacy for educational and athletic reform, and a sobering view of athlete health and mortality. Kareem’s characteristic candor and humility are evident as he discusses burdens of representation, persistent inequality, and the meaning of achievement both on and off the court. The conversation weaves sports, politics, history, and personal narrative into a compelling portrait of an American icon still fiercely engaged in the world’s big questions.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

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[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Please welcome Kareem Abdul Jabbar at the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Democratic National Convention this summer, the towering vision of Kareem Abdul Jabbar took to the stage and lent his support to the Democratic Party and its nominee.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I'm Michael Jordan and I'm here with Hillary. I said that because I know that Donald Trump couldn't tell the difference.

[Interviewer/Host]

Michael Jordan aside, and forget LeBron James and Steph Curry. Kareem Abdul Jabbar is still arguably the most dominant player in the history of college and professional basketball. In 20 years with the NBA, he became the all time leading scorer and since he retired in 1989, nobody has broken his record, not even MJ. But Abdul Jabbar's so called retirement has also been kind of remarkable in its way. He set his mind to becoming a writer. He's the author of books ranging from memoir to African American history to a kind of Sherlock Holmes reboot called Mycroft Holmes. His latest book is called Writings on the Searching for a New Equality Beyond Black and White. The essays share his ideas of right and wrong, his love of history. And recently he told me why he chose this year to appear at a political convention that for the very first time.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, I've been invited before, but I never really had the inclination to go. And I wanted to go this year because I thought that whatever happens in this election will be very important for our country. And I wanted to take part and say whatever it was that I had to say.

[Interviewer/Host]

You didn't feel that way before?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

No, I didn't think it was that crucial. But given all of the manifestations of racism and xenophobia and just a whole lot of tension and hatred going back and forth, I felt that this year is crucial.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why do you think this is going on now? We've gone through now, and maybe it's because of the advent of videotape and iPhones, because these incidents have been going on, God knows, for decades. But why do you think these police shootings, these manifestations of racism and xenophobia have come to this fever pitch in the last X months?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, I think that a lot of people are noticing a change in our country. We have a black president. More and more of the population are people of color. Seeing that change taking place and not being able to do anything has made a lot of people uptight. And I think Donald Trump recognized that and decided to take advantage of it.

[Interviewer/Host]

As the world existed in 1967, 68. And in the wake of Muhammad Ali's refusal to serve in the military, you decided not to participate in the Olympic Games.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Right?

[Interviewer/Host]

The Olympic Games just finished. Would you have played in the Olympics as the world is now in 2016, do you think?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I probably would have. You know, there's. There was a lot less incentive for me to forego the Olympics in years subsequent to 1968.

[Interviewer/Host]

What, what kind of price did you pay for not playing in the Olympics?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, I. I got criticized a lot, but fortunately for me, I had another year of college ball to play, and the American basketball team won the gold medal in 1968. So, no, nobody can blame me on the fact that they didn't win, and I just moved on.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, in your book, you try to come to grips with and begin a chapter with a wonderful quote from James Baldwin. The most dangerous creation of any society is that man who has nothing to lose. You Grew up in Inwood.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Host]

And Inwood is by far not the poorest place in New York City. But you're cheek by jowl with it. You grew up aware of poverty and people with nothing to lose.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

What is your sense of things now when you go back to your old neighborhood, when you go back when you were in the inner city in LA or New York or anywhere else, that there are more people with nothing to lose than when you started out?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, I think it's unfortunate because America was going in the other direction and I think that.

[Interviewer/Host]

In a positive direction.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

In a positive direction. And I think that we become too comfortable with mediocrity. American school kids now no longer lead the world in most academic disciplines. And that was the case for the longest time. And I think that's a direct failure of our school system. And our school system is failing because we don't want to spend the money to pay the teachers to do the great job that they did for so long. All of a sudden it's okay that, you know, people aren't given the opportunity to get a first rate education and go on to college. It's these kind of issues that really bother me. And it's what I'm talking about in my book.

[Interviewer/Host]

In the opening of the new book, you write about being a black role model. About the frustration in, quote, knowing that although you are proof it can be done, like a happy lottery winner waving a million dollar ticket, the odds are so astronomically against others that it sometimes feels as if you're more the source of false hope and crushed dreams.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

That is a problem, you know, because black Americans who are able to overcome the odds and do well and be successful, people point to them as an example as to, well, why aren't all black people that successful?

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you carry that heavily when you came into prominence? Which was really early. I remember, you know, as a kid hearing about you, even as a high school player, did you carry that weight very heavily?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I didn't carry it at all.

[Interviewer/Host]

Never.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I was going to do the best I could do, no matter what. I got to give my grandmother credit for that. You know, she was very much an advocate for education and discipline. And she felt that if you got an education and had some discipline, you could achieve anything. And I have to agree with her.

[Interviewer/Host]

So at no point in college or as a pro player did you feel the burden of being a role model. You just felt the burden of doing your best as a ball player?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Yeah, doing my best and maintaining my grades. Getting out of school, that was Very important to me.

[Interviewer/Host]

I want to get a sense of how you think about contemporary athletics today. You raised the question of paying college athletes. Nowhere in the world that I know of, nowhere, is college athletics what it is in the United States, either as a business or as an obsession. You go to Europe and start talking about, you know, the Fighting Gamecocks of this one or the Spartans of here. They just have no idea what you're talking about here. You think the system ought to be changed radically?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, I think that the people who perform, the college athletes who perform, they are exploited. College athletics generates billions of dollars in revenue and the college athletes don't get to share in that. People that run the NC2A have million dollar salaries. Really?

[Interviewer/Host]

You say nothing of the coaches?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Oh, the coaches are doing great. So I think that that's wrong. And some of that incredible amount of money should go to the athletes just to make their lives easier. I'm not saying that they have to be made wealthy, but they should not have to worry about insurance. They should not have to worry about getting hurt and losing their scholarship.

[Interviewer/Host]

That argument comes up against the traditional argument of you would lose the amateur experience, you would lose the college experience. You think that's a kind of construction of hypocrisy?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Of course it's hypocritical. If the amateur experience was supposed to be so important, why aren't the coaches participating in it? They're taking home millions of dollars a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Year in salary and in sneaker contracts and all the rest.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Contracts, all those things. They're doing great, the athletes. If you get hurt and can't play again, that's it. That's it. And that's a terrible example of exploiting someone.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you feel this way when you were 18, 19 years old?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Yeah, I did. And that's because, you know, one of the people that I got to know at UCLA explained it to me. He said, who was that? His name was Sam Gilbert. He was a businessman who befriended me. He scalped my tickets, which enabled me to have a few coins in my pocket.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, if you had gotten caught for him scalping your tickets, you would have gotten in hot water.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

No, I might have, yeah. Yeah. And he didn't care. You know, he felt that we should get some type of compensation for what we were doing. We were winning the NC2A every year. If you make it possible for the athletes to have a car and be able to take their girl out every so often, I think it would be a lot different. And the complaint wouldn't be so Extreme.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, I wonder, are you a football fan?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you have any problems with football? You watch football. You now know even more than we ever have.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Concussion system.

[Interviewer/Host]

Concussions. And people who, if they play even a modestly long career, can barely get out of a chair. A lot of them.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I know a lot of those guys. A number of my friends that play professional football are dead. A couple of them died this year. You know. Who's that? Ken Stabler. Jack Tatum's dead. A lot of guys on the Raiders, you know, I knew, but John Matuszak, he was a big fan of mine when I was in Milwaukee. And then, you know, he went to Iowa and then played for the Raiders. To see these guys die like that, I think those guys didn't understand what they were doing to themselves. Now that they have an understanding of.

[Interviewer/Host]

It, what can be done? Is football a fixable sport?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I don't know if it is, because I think the concussions are inevitable.

[Interviewer/Host]

Because what occurs to me is that pro football, NBA to the side, and pop music to the side. Pro football is probably the most popular entertainment in the United States. Certainly the super bowl is the highest rated of anything. And if pro football is unfixable in medical terms, you're going to start seeing more and more kids not playing it. In the same way that boxing became a kind of marginal part of American pop culture, that pro football and college football may one day not exist.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, I'm sure if it doesn't exist in the future, it'll be for good reasons.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is there too much money at stake, do you think, for it to be fixed?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I think the money is going to make it a lot harder to fix. But what they've learned about the concussion issue, I think really will make it at least a little bit more humane.

[Interviewer/Host]

I read a pretty scary article in ESPN Magazine in which Larry Bird was talking about the health issues that come to men of a certain height. I think a number of former NBA centers have died in the last several years.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Nate Thurman, Darrell Dawkins, Moses Malone. I could go on.

[Interviewer/Host]

And what does that tell you when you talk to doctors? What is that all about?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of guys, once they've stopped their professional career, they stop going to see doctors and don't see these things creeping up on them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Because athletes think of themselves as so perfectly.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

So perfectly attuned to everything and able to perform at a higher level. So their health must be okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you relish retirement or did you fear it. Was it a difficult transition?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I kind of relished retirement. It gave me a chance to get close to my children and getting over the burnout that took me about three or four years. Then I got interested in writing again and realized that I had to do something for this. A crazy obsession, writing, but it's fun and I wanted to do it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is there anything as satisfying after you retired? Is there anything that can match athletic either achievement or triumph?

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

I think there probably are things that can match it, but it's really tough. It's. It's great. And the whole nation watches you and you have fans and friends all over.

[Interviewer/Host]

The country, but that's something that always seemed. You had a certain ambivalence about the whole nation watching you.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Yeah, I did. You know, I wanted the opportunity to excel, but I also felt that it was also a lot of pressure. But, you know, I was able to handle the pressure and do well, I'll say so.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kareem, thank you very much.

[Kareem Abdul Jabbar]

Well, it's been great talking with you.

[David Remnick]

That was David Remnick talking to Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts from prx.