Podcast Summary: "Laura Kipnis on the State of #MeToo"
The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Host: Alexandra Schwartz
Guest: Laura Kipnis
Release Date: February 5, 2018
Episode Overview
In this episode, New Yorker staff writer Alexandra Schwartz speaks with writer and academic Laura Kipnis about the #MeToo movement. The conversation explores Kipnis’s controversial critiques of contemporary feminism, the complexities and contradictions within #MeToo, generational divides, the blurred lines in sexual encounters, and broader questions about agency, institutional responses, and the evolving dynamics between men and women in heterosexual relationships. The tone is both incisive and reflective, interrogating both the promise and the pitfalls of a movement reshaping social and sexual norms.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Ambiguity and Dual Nature of #MeToo
-
Kipnis’s Stance:
- Kipnis appreciates the grassroots energy of women publicly sharing their experiences ([03:18]).
- She draws a line between this activism and the institutional or bureaucratic responses that risk obscuring important distinctions.
- Quote:
“If the question is whether MeToo has gone too far or not far enough, the answer is obviously both.”
— Laura Kipnis ([03:08])
-
Nuance Needed:
- She invokes F. Scott Fitzgerald on the need to hold conflicting ideas at once in order to deal with the complexities emerging from the movement.
- Quote:
“Now you need to hold about 20 contrasting ideas… using exposé as a political tactic… then you’ve got institutions wanting to cover their ass.”
— Laura Kipnis ([03:23])
2. Contextual Differences: Campus vs. Workplace vs. Social Life
- On Institutional Power:
- Kipnis draws parallels between Title IX processes on campus and corporate responses to harassment, questioning whether women are truly empowered by these systems or if these are just about risk management ([04:00]).
- On Distinctions:
- She emphasizes the danger in conflating contexts—sexual misconduct by high-profile men, workplace harassment, campus incidents, and cases of awkward or inappropriate dating behavior ([05:08]).
3. Women’s Agency and Responsibility
- Submissiveness and Sexual Agency:
- Kipnis argues that adult women should be treated as sexual agents, capable of both making—and learning from—mistakes ([06:45]).
- She believes passive or “yielding” responses shouldn’t be the default reactions and questions if self-advocacy could avoid some negative outcomes, while acknowledging there are no “perfect solutions” ([06:45]).
- On the Aziz Ansari Story:
- Kipnis discusses the much-debated account of Aziz Ansari’s bad date, suggesting both parties struggled to read and communicate intentions.
- Quote:
“We’ve got to retain this idea that feminists have fought for… the right to make mistakes.”
— Laura Kipnis ([08:14])
4. Consent, Liminal Zones, and the Fear of Overcorrecting
-
What’s Really at Stake:
- Schwartz notes that many cases involve clear nonconsent, and needs for boundaries are paramount ([08:43]).
- Kipnis explores the fear, particularly among men, that flirting and sexual play will disappear from social life due to stricter enforcement, while also warning against a sterile, erotic-free workplace ([09:10]).
- Quote:
“There are a lot of people legitimately worried that those forms of fun and pleasure and play… we’re being turned into robots.”
— Laura Kipnis ([09:29])
-
Professional and Social Stakes:
- Schwartz insists that “no” should be an option without professional or social punishment; otherwise, real agency is impossible ([10:03]).
5. Male Vulnerability and the Need for Mutual Reflection
- Invitation to Self-Examination:
- Kipnis calls this “an educational moment,” hoping it inspires not only men to reconsider sexual behavior but also women to acknowledge roles in interactions ([10:48]).
- She highlights male vulnerability—suggesting men’s worst behaviors may mask feelings of insecurity.
- Quote:
“Oftentimes the person acting like the worst is… deep inside some… threatened, runt-like person.”
— Laura Kipnis ([11:13])
6. Generational Tensions Within Feminism
- On Complaints and Change:
- Schwartz foregrounds a rift: older feminists urge personal responsibility, while younger feminists argue for radically improved standards ([11:57]).
- Kipnis’s Response:
- She recognizes the value of #MeToo’s “insurrectionary spirit” but admits her generation perhaps allowed themselves less “excuse making" ([12:43]).
- Quote:
“All of these things are true at once… I do think social change will come about.”
— Laura Kipnis ([12:43])
7. Heterosexual Dissatisfactions and Positive Outcomes
- Responsibility on Men and Women:
- Kipnis agrees men “vastly need to change their sexual behavior,” but also suggests women reflect on their own roles within heterosexual dynamics ([13:44]).
- Possibility for Eros and Honest Dialogue:
- Both agree #MeToo could foster not just constraint but more “open and honest conversations” about sex, desire, and respect ([14:51]).
- Quote:
“That’s my hope… men think about their own behavior and think about porn… the kind of self-examination that comes out of this can be great.”
— Laura Kipnis ([15:18])
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Conflicting Truths in #MeToo:
“If the question is whether MeToo has gone too far or not far enough, the answer is obviously both.”
— Laura Kipnis ([03:08]) -
On the Right to Sexual Agency and Mistakes:
“We’ve got to retain this idea that feminists have fought for… the right to make mistakes.”
— Laura Kipnis ([08:14]) -
On the Threat of Overcorrection:
“We’re being turned into robots… we all feel so constricted and joyless in those circumstances.”
— Laura Kipnis ([09:29]) -
On Generational Divides in Feminism:
“All of these things are true at once… I do think social change will come about.”
— Laura Kipnis ([12:43]) -
On the Hope for Honest Dialogue and Growth:
“That’s my hope… the kind of self-examination that comes out of this can be great.”
— Laura Kipnis ([15:18])
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [02:57] — Opening exchange: defining #MeToo's promise and problems
- [04:37] — Distinction between campus and workplace contexts
- [05:44] — Agency, Gretchen Carlson memoir critique, and responsibility
- [06:45] — Kipnis on imperfect solutions, submissiveness, and the right to make mistakes
- [08:43] — Limits of consent and the problem with liminal zones
- [10:03] — The need for no strings attached to “no”; male vulnerability
- [11:57] — Generational conflicts in feminism
- [13:44] — What men should take away; responsibility for change
- [14:51] — Could #MeToo cultivate more honest sexual dynamics?
- [15:18] — Kipnis’s hope for thoughtful change
Conclusion
This episode offers a nuanced, sometimes provocative conversation about the ongoing #MeToo revolution. Laura Kipnis acts as a critical insider—sympathetic to the movement’s goals but unafraid to question its blind spots and unintended consequences. Both she and Schwartz agree that open communication and mutual self-examination—for men and for women—are crucial as society confronts these evolving questions of power, agency, sexuality, and justice.