Lena Waithe on Police Violence and “Queen & Slim”

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Lena Waithe on Police Violence and “Queen & Slim”
Date: November 18, 2019
Host: Jelani Cobb

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Overview

This episode features a deeply insightful conversation between The New Yorker’s staff writer Jelani Cobb and celebrated writer, producer, and performer Lena Waithe. The discussion centers on Waithe's new film "Queen & Slim," a searing narrative about two black characters whose lives are upended after a confrontation with police leads to an officer’s death. Together, Cobb and Waithe explore the film’s political undertones, its connection to contemporary issues of police violence, the artistic choices behind its storytelling, and its resonance with Waithe’s own life and career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Storytelling & Artistic Roots

(02:56–06:36)

• Waithe’s Artistic Philosophy: Lena Waithe discusses how personal experience shapes her writing and characters, likening storytelling to therapy. “I can't not. You know, yes, I'm the vessel, but because I am, some of me is gonna get in there.” (03:04, Lena Waithe)
• Influence of Classic Television: Waithe grew up watching a range of TV alongside her grandmother, noting the significance of both contemporary and older sitcoms on her craft. Shows like "Good Times," "All in the Family," "The Cosby Show," and "Mary Tyler Moore" were formative, providing “a lifelong study in story and character.” (05:31, Lena Waithe)
• Studying the Craft: She recalls dissecting television scripts in high school, driven by a fascination with the mechanics of storytelling and a desire to understand “why they were written the way they were written.” (06:17, Lena Waithe)

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2. Genesis of "Queen & Slim"

(06:36–10:46)

• Story Pitch: The initial idea came from a party conversation with James Fry, centering on a black couple whose encounter with police turns deadly. Waithe instantly recognized its potential and chose to run with it, identifying a narrative that felt urgent and reflective of black American experiences.
• Crafting the Opening: She details the collaborative process in refining the script, especially the decision to begin with a date rather than a traumatic incident, allowing the audience to gradually peel back the characters’ layers.
• Character Construction: Waithe intentionally withholds the characters’ names until the end—mirroring how the names of black victims of police violence often become publicly known only after tragedy.
  • “I didn't want to reveal their names until they were killed, because... that's how I came to know their names. So that was a thing that I purposefully wanted to do.” (10:06, Lena Waithe)

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3. Racial Politics & Cinematic Intentions

(10:46–14:46)

• Politics in Storytelling: Cobb compares the film to “Bonnie and Clyde,” but Waithe draws a sharper distinction: “It instantly becomes political. It instantly becomes important. It instantly becomes revolutionary because of, literally, the color of their skin.” (11:02, Lena Waithe)
• Cultural Weight: Waithe and Cobb discuss how, for many black Americans, the police embody more than law enforcement—they are symbols of historical and systemic oppression.
  • “They represent Jim Crow. They represent... just injustice. They represent death to us, a lot of us.” (11:37, Lena Waithe)
• Complexity of Violence: There wasn’t an intent to frame the main characters as heroes or villains, but rather as ordinary people thrust into survival mode by structural violence. “No one is innocent, no one is guilty. Everyone is just trying to survive.” (12:34, Lena Waithe)
• Real-world Parallels: The film’s release was coincident with high-profile police shootings, intensifying its relevance—a fact Waithe approached with sorrow, not opportunism.
  • “I do not want that kind of publicity for the film. I do not. Because I am like every other black person. I am traumatized every time these stories come out.” (14:03, Lena Waithe)

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4. Community, Uplift, and Internal Conflict

(14:46–18:14)

• Black Community as Haven: In one standout scene, Queen and Slim receive safe harbor at a bar frequented by black patrons, highlighting themes of trust, unity, and the creation of needed heroes.
  • Memorable moment: The bartender offers solidarity: “Don’t worry, you’re safe here.” (16:08, Waithe paraphrasing character)
• Diversity of Black Opinion: Waithe is careful to include what she calls “honest and grounded” portrayals of generational conflict within the black community, acknowledging both those who view the protagonists as heroes and others who judge them more harshly.
  • “I made sure that all those voices were heard in a way that felt honest and grounded and true.” (17:36, Lena Waithe)

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5. Media, Perception, and Interpretive Lens

(17:44–19:24)

• Viral Violence: Cobb notes how the police shooting in the film, caught on video, acts as a catalyst for everyone who views it, likening the officer to "patient zero" in a wider social epidemic.
  • “The officer is almost like patient zero in an outbreak where his actions cause every single other person... to confront the question of what they stand for.” (17:44, Jelani Cobb)
• Interpretation and Projection: Waithe connects this to contemporary media, reflecting that “we bring our stuff” to each real-world case we see online, and every choice in life affects broader outcomes.

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6. Waithe’s Reflections on Success and Creative Reality

(19:24–20:38)

• The Bittersweet Dream: Waithe likens achieving her creative goals to parenthood—exhilarating and devastating, with success only fully grasped through experience.
  • “[Getting your own TV show] is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And it’s true... You can’t wanna be the heavyweight champion of the world and not take some licks. So I’m gonna get hit sometimes, just a matter if I hit back, which I will.” (19:57–20:36, Lena Waithe)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On representation in storytelling:
  “My favorite artists are the ones that you can see them in their work... you see what that person's trauma is because it keeps popping up.” (03:04, Lena Waithe)

• On the deliberate anonymity of the main characters:
  “I purposefully wanted to do [not reveal their names]... you often don't know black people's names unless police kill us.” (10:06, Lena Waithe)

• On community support:
  “These are on the house. Thank you. Don’t worry, you’re safe here.” (16:08, Bar scene, recounted by Waithe)

• On creative achievement:
  “Getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And it’s true.” (19:57, Lena Waithe)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:56 – Waithe on personal experience shaping her writing
• 05:31 – Influence of classic and contemporary television on her craft
• 06:36 – Origin story and collaborative writing of "Queen & Slim"
• 10:06 – Intentional decision to withhold character names
• 11:02 – Racial politics of two black fugitives in America
• 14:03 – Waithe’s reaction to real-life police violence coinciding with the film’s release
• 16:08 – The community-as-sanctuary scene
• 17:44 – Cobb on the shooting’s ripple effect (patient zero analogy)
• 19:57 – Waithe offers a candid metaphor on the price of creative freedom

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Conclusion

This episode provides an unflinching look at how Lena Waithe’s personal experiences and identity as a black writer influence her work, particularly in the emotionally charged "Queen & Slim." The conversation underscores the ongoing crisis of police violence, the complexities of black identity and community, and the burdens and triumphs that come with groundbreaking creative achievement. Waithe’s candor and Cobb’s thoughtful prompting make for a conversation that is as insightful as it is urgent—one that resonates deeply in the current cultural and political landscape.

Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, the New Yorker's Jelani Cobb talks with the writer, performer and producer Lena Waithe. Waithe's new film Queen and Slim features two people on the run after the accidental killing of a police officer.

[Narrator]

In 2017, Lena Waithe made TV history. She was the first black woman to win an Emmy for comedy screenwriting. That was for her work on Netflix's Master of None, and the episode she wrote was based on her own experience code coming out to her mother. Waithe's debut as a film screenwriter is with the new movie Queen and Slim, and while it's not drawn directly from her own life, the film turns on an experience that's all too common for people of color. A bad run in with a police officer. Jelani Cobb, a staff writer at the New Yorker, recently sat down to talk with Lena Waithe, and fair warning, they do mention a couple of key plot points in the course of their conversation.

[Jelani Cobb]

You know you won the Emmy in 2017, and you know you've been ubiquitous since then. You know you have the film that's just about to come out, Queen and Slim. You have the shy. You have twenties, you have the film you were telling me that you just wrote seemingly like, I mean, it sounds like you wrote it like in the middle of running to pick up your dry cleaning. It was like, oh, let me just knock out this script here while I'm waiting for them to get my laundry. In your Showtime series, the Shy, one of your characters, Emmett, who was played by Jacob Lattimore, is really into sneakers.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Jelani Cobb]

And I know you're a major sneaker head yourself. So do you write a part of yourself into each of your characters?

[Lena Waithe]

I can't not. You know, yes, I'm the vessel, but because I am, some of me is gonna get in there. You know, I do try to let the characters speak through me, but it's also therapy for me. It's also a place for me to work out my stuff. My favorite artists are the ones that you can see them in their work. You see that, you know, what that person's trauma is because it keeps popping up. Especially some of Spike's early work. Like, you see the things he was struggling with.

[Jelani Cobb]

It's funny, when you said that I was like, the first person I thought about actually was Spike Lee.

[Lena Waithe]

You see his stuff, you know, like Jungle Fever to me is I think one of his most underrated movies because it is obviously something that he is grappling with. I don't know if you can make that movie now.

[Jelani Cobb]

No, no, you can't make that movie now. Some of the themes I think that were like, the conversation was in a particular place when that film first came out.

[Lena Waithe]

You can't do that. Yeah, like people black Twitter would like, lose it.

[Jelani Cobb]

So I've read that you started watching TV at an early age and that you refer to it as your third parent or your other parent. And so, you know, how much TV were you watching and what shows in particular were you really connected to?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, man, I spent a lot of time in front of the television. I think that's not abnormal for kids raised by single parents. You know, had a very black mom in the sense that there's an old fashionedness of caring about how her children present, trying to give us the things, the material things that we need, and also being in a position without our father.

[Jelani Cobb]

So your father passed away when you were young?

[Lena Waithe]

When I was 14, yeah. Uh huh. Suddenly we lived in my grandmother's house on the south side of Chicago, living in a home and sort of like this almost protected little neighborhood. But I spent a lot of time alone watching television. And I would watch old television because that's what my grandmother wanted to watch. She would watch Good Times and All in the Family, and I would watch that stuff with her. And then I would watch Cosby Show, Different World, Living Single, Martin, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, and I also discovered Mary Tyler Moore Show, Maude Rhoda.

[Jelani Cobb]

It's a lot of classic television.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, that's the thing. I will watch current television, but I was also fascinated by old television. Things like that I would really listen to and learn and pay attention to. Pay very close attention to. So, in essence, I've been studying this and story and character since I was a very young person, and then decided to really learn the craft. And so I went to Columbia College in Chicago, which happened to be my own backyard. And I wasn't quite ready to leave Chicago just yet.

[Jelani Cobb]

Can I. Actually, before we. Before we leave that, though, can I ask you a little bit about the television part?

[Lena Waithe]

Sure.

[Jelani Cobb]

At what point did you kind of transition from, you know, observing, laughing at it, you know, thinking this is fun, to watching it, the way a writer watches those shows, the mechanics of it, the timing and pulling that apart. Like, do you know when you made that transition?

[Lena Waithe]

I think high school. High school was when I started to discover, like, the commentary, the special features on DVDs, because I wanted to. I'd watch the episodes a million times, but. But I wanted to dissect them. I wanted to understand them. I wanted to know why they were written the way they were written.

[Jelani Cobb]

So let's talk about the soon to be released film Queen and Slim. You had pitched this idea at a party by James Fry, correct?

[Lena Waithe]

Mm, yeah. Hollywood Reporter party. I'm at the party and he introduces himself. Like, he just said, I have this idea for a movie that I can't write. And I was like, all right, what's the. And he's just like, yeah, Black man, black woman on a first date. It's not going great. It's not horrible. But anyway, they get on there, he's driving her home, and on the way home, they get pulled over by a police officer. Things escalate pretty quickly and they kill him in self defense and decide to get in the car and go. I thought, hmm, that's interesting. And it just, like, stuck with me. And he probably thought he was never gonna hear from me again, but I was like, no, let's exchange information. He had a title, he had an outline. I was just like, I don't need anything, any of That I was like, I just want to take this idea and like, run with it. My writing resume wasn't as long as it is now, so I don't even know if he knew. It could have been a complete disaster. It could have been like, not what he wanted, the whole development thing. But the way I get down is that I'm a one man band when I'm writing, but then I have a whole community of people and artists that I show it to and get feedback from and a lot of the writers on the Chi season one, like, I'm really grateful to Kathy Kasaki who. Cause initially it was gonna start with Queen watching her client be executed. That was initially gonna be the first image. She was gonna be apologizing to the family for not being able to do enough, not being able to save their son. And Kathy was like, I don't think you need that. Just start on a date. And I was like, but then people won't understand why she's so in such a state. And. And Kathy was like, so what? Like, that's. I remember like hearing myself explain, like, why that would be difficult. And then I was like, for all those reasons, like, yeah, that's exactly why I should start this way and let the audience sort of like, I'm gonna just peel her like an onion.

[Jelani Cobb]

The film does in fact open on this date. You know, they're at a diner. You see these two dark complexioned African American people with this light just almost dancing on their skin.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah, it's so beautiful.

[Queen (Character)]

Normally I would go home and have a glass of wine by myself, but I didn't feel like being alone. Not tonight.

[Lena Waithe]

You didn't have any friends or family you can call?

[Queen (Character)]

No.

[Lena Waithe]

So you turned to Tinder?

[Queen (Character)]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

What made you pick me?

[Queen (Character)]

I liked your picture.

[Lena Waithe]

What?

[Queen (Character)]

You had this sad look on your face. I felt sorry for you.

[Jelani Cobb]

But what exactly do you want us to know about these two people in that scene?

[Lena Waithe]

Um, you know, I think what's presented, you know, what do you know about a person when you sit down on the first date with them? What they produce to present, you know, what you choose to assume, you know, and all the assumptions you make and the assumptions about each other and. And they're also an algorithm of all of us in a way. You know, one is religious, one is not, one is close to their family, one isn't. One wants to leave a mark on the world, one wants to just exist in it. They're all of us.

[Jelani Cobb]

The character Queen, who's played by Jodie Turner Smith, who's a comparative newcomer, and she's paired with Daniel Kaluuya, who is, like, involved in everything at this point. And it's interesting, though, that they don't use their names. Is that kind of.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, I chose not to. Ye. That was the thing. I deliberately chose to do that because. And I remember thinking, I was writing it, I was like, can I, like, get away with this? Oh, I'm trying. I'll see what happens. But I didn't want to reveal their names until they were killed, because I don't know Trayvon Martin's name, I don't know Emmett Till's name. I don't know Eric Garner's name. I don't know Mike Brown's name. I don't know Sandra Bland's name unless they were killed. That's how I came to know their names. So that was a thing that I purposefully wanted to do, was to say, you often don't know black people's names unless police kill us.

[Jelani Cobb]

Wow. There's an easy impulse to compare the film to Bonnie and Clyde, which seems off to me. But in a recent interview, you said that it's more like a heterosexual Thelma and Louise. How does the story change when there are two black people on the run in America?

[Lena Waithe]

It changes in every way because it instantly becomes political. It instantly becomes important. It instantly becomes revolutionary because of, literally, the color of their skin. And I think what's so. I think what's so palpable about it is who they kill, and it's about what.

[Jelani Cobb]

And that they've killed the police.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, exactly. And what do the police represent to us? They represent Jim Crow. They represent, you know, just injustice. They represent death to us, a lot of us. And for them to kill that in a complicated way, it's not intentional. They didn't go out to say, oh, we're gonna go kill a cop tonight. You know, they were just existing in the world and trying to find joy. And while doing that, they get pulled over and that joy is interrupted. And writing those two scenes is probably the most difficult thing I've ever done. And I've rewrote those scenes, like, so many times, and there's so many different variations of those scenes. There was a point where she killed the cop and he killed it, and they both did and strangled. I mean, it was a million different versions of it. And then I finally landed on what people see. So it really kind of plays with these different things where no one is innocent, no one is guilty. Everyone is just trying to survive. I think that's what sparked something in me about the idea we flip the narrative, we flip it and then to me it becomes. Then it becomes a love story. Then it's about these two people being forced to get to know each other. They have no choice. But it's also about. I used Malcolm X as sort of a reference point for her and Martin Luther King as a reference point for him. And then by the end of the film, I think they sort of swapped places.

[Jelani Cobb]

So I wondered about this because, you know, the story parallels obviously a lot of what we've seen in the news recently. The night that I saw the film was the same day that the verdict had come down in the Botham Jean shooting. Oh, this is when police officer Geiger shot this young man in his own home.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, she was sentenced, but it was very light and it was.

[Jelani Cobb]

And then not long after that, we saw the death of 28 year old Atatiana Jefferson, who was an African American woman who was killed in her home by a white police officer.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Jelani Cobb]

Also in Texas. Was there ever a fear that this subject matter in the film would strike too close to home for viewers?

[Lena Waithe]

No. No. I had no idea this many more black bodies would have dropped by the time we got close to opening. I do not want that kind of publicity for the film. I do not. Because I am like every other black person. I am traumatized every time these stories come out, every time these stories hit our phones, our Instagram feed, our Twitter, our tv.

[Jelani Cobb]

We.

[Lena Waithe]

A piece of us dies because we know that we, we could be next. And I think that's really where this story was born out of, you know, me feeling like a second class citizen. Even though people may feel as if I sit in a place of privilege, I don't think people understand, like the way things were different just a few years ago. And where I didn't feel like I had a voice, I didn't feel like I had a person to turn to, to help me in my space as a new show creator trying to have a. Trying to have a say or agency. And so that's where I went and said, I'm gonna write something just on my own. That's the thing no one can take from me. I just wanted to write something about us, but unfortunately, if I'm writing about us, how can I ignore the fact that we're being hunted?

[Jelani Cobb]

When you say us, you mean African Americans?

[Lena Waithe]

We say black people. Yeah.

[Jelani Cobb]

I don't want to keep spoiling for the film for those who haven't seen it, but I have to ask you about one scene where the man, or slim, convinces the woman queen to stop at a bar for a quick dance. They're clearly in a lot of trouble at this point. And, you know, one of the most striking things about the scene is that despite all this trouble that's hanging over them, Slim doesn't really care. You know, he wants to take her out on essentially a date while they are fugitives. And there's a moment in there where he orders a drink, and the bartender is an older black woman, and she.

[Lena Waithe]

Says, these are on the house. Thank you. Don't worry, you're safe here.

[Jelani Cobb]

And there's a kind of recurring theme, you know, betrayal and trust throughout. And can you talk a little bit about that scene and what you were thinking about as you created it?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah. I wanted there to be a sense of community, you know, in the film, a sense of unity, a sense of, they are heroes in some people's eyes. I had to ask myself, how would those two people be received if they walked into a predominantly black establishment after being seen on tape killing a cop? How would they be received? We create the heroes in which we need. And people needed them. They needed them to mean something more than what they were. And there's also that sort of bit of an Underground railroad feel of, you know, this is a safe spot. You know, this is a safe haven. You can come hang here for a little bit. But. But also, because I'm not a simple writer, I know that there's also people maybe of a certain generation that wouldn't necessarily celebrate that.

[Jelani Cobb]

Sure. There's other African Americans who are very critical of them.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I made sure that all those voices were heard in a way that felt honest and grounded and true.

[Jelani Cobb]

You know, one of the first things that struck me was the way in which the incident with the police officer is almost like. The officer is almost like patient zero in an outbreak where his actions cause every single other person we meet throughout the course of that film to really confront the question of what they stand for. And because the incident is on video, everyone sees it and they're interpreting it through their own lens.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely.

[Jelani Cobb]

And I wonder if that was what you were wanting to do, to kind of put all these people in front of these screens on their phone or on their computers or whatever, and then say, here's this thing, you know, Tell me how you interpret this. Tell me what this is.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. Well, I think that's what we do every day, you know, when we look at our screen, you know, or see the latest viral video or watch the news. How we take in the news is we interpret it in our own, but we bring our stuff to it. And that's why everybody has different opinions about things. But ultimately, I believe every little choice and thing we do affects our lives. And, you know, that date is a choice. It's a choice that she makes. She doesn't want to be alone that night. I totally hear what you're saying in terms of. I really like that idea, is that he's the patient zero. But it's also, you know, it's three people grappling with America's history, really, in a moment.

[Jelani Cobb]

So one last thing.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Jelani Cobb]

You've talked about your relationship with television from your childhood and the way that that evolved, you know, from you observing these shows and enjoying these shows to you studying them and dissecting them and taking them apart. And you had this dream of participating in this world in some way. Is it everything that you would have hoped it to be?

[Lena Waithe]

It's more. It's more and it's less. That's the thing.

[Jelani Cobb]

In what ways?

[Lena Waithe]

It's more in that it's almost like trying to describe to someone what having a child is like. You can talk all day, but until you have your own, you won't know how great it is, but also how devastating it can be. I heard this great thing from a writer in this program I was doing where you kind of learned how to be a showrunner. And they said getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And it's true. That's what it is. You can't wanna be the heavyweight champion of the world and not take some licks. So I'm gonna get hit sometimes, just a matter if I hit back, which I will.

[Jelani Cobb]

That's a great way to conclude.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Jelani Cobb]

Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you.

[Jelani Cobb]

All right.

[Narrator]

The writer, actor and producer, Lena Waithe. She talked with Jelani Cobb, a staff writer at the New Yorker. Waithe wrote the film Queen and Slim, directed by Melina Matsoukas, and it comes out later this month. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director.

[Michael Calore]

I'm Michael Colory, Wired's director of consumer tech and culture.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley, is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Katie Drummond]

At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of the biggest stories in tech, right?

[Michael Calore]

So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you.

[Katie Drummond]

Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.

[Lena Waithe]

From prx.