Loneliness, Tyranny, and the Coronavirus

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: Loneliness, Tyranny, and the Coronavirus
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Masha Gessen
Date: May 7, 2020

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor at The New Yorker, speaks with staff writer and renowned author Masha Gessen about the profound social and political consequences of loneliness during the COVID-19 pandemic. Drawing on the insights of political theorist Hannah Arendt, they explore the link between isolation and the rise of autocracy, the effects of prolonged social isolation, and what lessons and possibilities might emerge in a post-pandemic world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. New Vocabulary of the Pandemic and The Scale of Isolation

• The pandemic has normalized terms like "social distancing," "self-isolation," and "shelter in place," which have shaped daily life across the globe (01:16).
• Millions are confined to their homes, with many living alone and experiencing acute isolation for the first time.

2. Loneliness as a Public Health Crisis

• Former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy notes that "Loneliness is associated with a reduction in your lifespan that is as severe as the reduction in lifespan that you see with smoking 15 cigarettes a day." (Michael Kalore, quoting Vivek Murthy, 02:09)
• Loneliness puts individuals in a stress state, having profound impacts on health.

3. Isolation, Loneliness, and Totalitarianism (Hannah Arendt’s Theory)

• Masha Gessen explains Arendt’s concept:
  • "Isolation is necessary for tyrannies. It's sometimes a precondition to tyranny. It's always the consequence… Loneliness is the defining condition of totalitarianism." (Masha Gessen, 03:26)
  • Solitude, unlike isolation or loneliness, is productive and essential for thought and creativity—a vital state in the current crisis.

4. The Paradox of Virtual Connection

• Gessen observes that technology (Zoom, etc.) can erase physical distance, feeling liberating at first, but becomes "frustrating, exhausting, and anxiety-provoking" over time, especially when layered onto the most important relationships (05:17).
• The pandemic creates a new, deeper form of loneliness, even for those used to working alone.

5. The Critical Role of Physical Touch and Human Contact

• Notable quote: "I wonder if in the after quarantine, people will be divided into two categories, those who were touched and those who weren't." (Masha Gessen quoting art curator Ruth Nock, 06:41)
• The deprivation of touch can be "mortifying," formerly reserved for solitary confinement.

6. Political Consequences: Isolation as a Tool for Authoritarianism

• Gessen links the enforced privatization of life under lockdown to the experience of living under authoritarian regimes, referencing Arendt’s view that "authoritarianism... is when you tend to your private life while the government is making decisions that have immediate impact." (Masha Gessen, 08:35)

7. Comparing COVID-19 Responses: U.S. and Soviet Chernobyl

• Comparisons drawn between Trump's handling of the pandemic and the Soviet response to Chernobyl—both marked by "utter disregard for human life," with the state ignoring or minimizing mass death (10:22).

8. "Trumpian Reality" and the Fracturing of Shared Truth

• Gessen discusses how Trump's manipulation of reality—illustrated by the false “it was sunny during the inauguration” claim—forces Americans to choose between their own perceptions and his imposed “reality.”
  • "You can live in the anxiety... or you can just embrace my reality... in this Fox News affirmed reality bubble." (Masha Gessen, 11:31)
• Lockdown intensifies this, as reduced real-world experience makes it easier for people to slip into constructed realities.

9. Mutual Aid, Local/State Leaders, and the Limits of Grassroots Action

• Grassroots mutual aid efforts are inspiring but "perpetuate this vacuum of government." Gessen warns of the American tendency to frame crisis solutions as matters of "individual action," rather than "community and society."
  • "No amount of community effort can or should substitute for a lack of actual government." (Masha Gessen, 14:15)
• Governors acting effectively offer hope, but deeper structural change is urgently needed.

10. Prospects for Political Change Post-Pandemic

• Reflecting on Arundhati Roy's idea that pandemics force societal rethinking, Gessen sees "possibility" but not certainty of substantive reform (16:34).
• Ideas once fringe—like universal healthcare and basic income—are moving to the mainstream.
• The pandemic exposes the instrumental role of schools and longstanding failures of government.

11. Election Hopes and Media Challenges

• Gessen expresses tempered hope for the upcoming election, pointing out Trump hasn't enjoyed the usual "rally-round-the-flag" bump seen by other leaders (17:58).
• But concerns linger: "I think the laws of physics maybe stopped obtaining in 2016," referencing unpredictabilities in American politics.
• The overwhelming focus on coronavirus coverage has crowded out media exposure for opposition candidates and issues beyond Trump.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On loneliness as a health issue:
  • “Loneliness is associated with a reduction in your lifespan that is as severe as the reduction in lifespan that you see with smoking 15 cigarettes a day.” (Michael Kalore, quoting Vivek Murthy, 02:09)
• On the political dangers of isolation:
  • “Isolation is necessary for tyrannies. It's sometimes a precondition to tyranny. It's always the consequence.” (Masha Gessen, 03:26)
• On the cost of lockdown:
  • “There is no distance anymore. And that felt liberating for a minute, and then it started wearing very, very thin.” (Masha Gessen, 05:17)
• On touch and human separation:
  • “Those of us who are stuck in quarters that are too close for comfort sometimes with our families have the incredible luxury of all kinds of touch, which people who live alone just... Just don't.” (Masha Gessen, 06:41)
• On the Trump era:
  • “You can live in the anxiety, the extreme discomfort of constantly trying to carry two irreconcilable realities in your head, or you can just embrace my reality…” (Masha Gessen, 11:31)
• On potential for change:
  • “Crises are always moments of political opportunity… ideas that seemed marginal just a week before the coronavirus pandemic seem almost mainstream a few weeks into it, such as universal health care…” (Masha Gessen, 16:34)
• On the limits of hope:
  • “Trump hasn't had as much of a pandemic bump as other Western leaders… but my question is, do the laws of physics obtain? I'm not sure… maybe my hope is misplaced.” (Masha Gessen, 17:58)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:16: Introduction and pandemic isolation context
• 02:09: Murthy quote on loneliness and health
• 03:26: Arendt’s theory of isolation and totalitarianism
• 05:17: Gessen on the paradox of virtual connection
• 06:41: On absence of touch; Ruth Nock's observation
• 08:35: Autocracy, terror, and self-isolation
• 10:22: Comparing Trump’s COVID response to Chernobyl
• 11:31: “Trumpian reality” and manipulation of perception
• 14:15: Mutual aid, local leaders, and government responsibility
• 16:34: Potential for post-pandemic political transformation
• 17:58: Election prospects and media challenges

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is insightful and somber, blending historical knowledge and personal reflection. Gessen and Wickenden maintain an urgent, analytical tone without despair, emphasizing the vital need for collective reconsideration of government, society, and community beyond the crisis.

Summary prepared for listeners seeking a comprehensive, engaging understanding of the episode's in-depth exploration of loneliness, power, and possibility during the coronavirus era.

Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the political scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and guests about Politics. It's Thursday, May 7th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. The coronavirus has brought with it a new vocabulary that's familiar to everyone, not just previously arcane medical and scientific terms, but phrases that apply to our daily lives social distancing, self isolation and shelter in place, to name just a few. Even as some economies begin to reopen, millions of people around the world remain confined to their homes, vast numbers of whom live alone. The experience of acute isolation has never been so pervasive, and it brings its own dangers. As former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told CBS this morning in 2017, years before the pandemic hit, it turns out that.

[Michael Kalore]

Loneliness is associated with a reduction in your lifespan that is as severe as the reduction in lifespan that you see with smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It's greater than the impact on mortality of obesity. And part of this is because that loneliness actually places us in a stress state. We evolved to be social creatures, and thousands of years ago, if you were connected to other people. You were more likely to have a stable food supply and to be protected from predators. So when you're disconnected, you're in a stress state. When that happens chronically, it can have a profound impact on your health.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Masha Gessen, a New Yorker staff writer, joins me to discuss the social and political consequences of loneliness and the hazards and potential of for a post pandemic world. Masha, welcome to the program.

[Masha Gessen]

Thank you. Hi, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So great to have you. It's great to be here. I wanted to talk to you because you have an unusual perspective on loneliness that I think is going to be helpful to our listeners. I know it has been to me. You were born in Soviet Russia and have shuttled between the US And Russia throughout your life. You've written a lot about totalitarianism in Russia and elsewhere. So in thinking about loneliness, you turn to the political theorist Hannah Arendt and her book the Origins of Totalitarianism. What did you find there?

[Masha Gessen]

Well, yes, whenever I'm anxious, I turn to the origins of totalitarianism or to Arendt. So in the very last section of the book, Arendt has an exploration, I think one of the most profound explorations of the ideas of isolation, loneliness and solitude. And basically what she writes is that isolation is necessary for tyrannies. It's sometimes a precondition to tyranny. It's always the consequence. And by isolation, she means separating people from one another, not necessarily physically, but politically, so that they can't act together. Loneliness is the loss of connection to the world, the loss of the ability to contribute to the world, and the loss of what she describes as the reflection of oneself in others. And she writes that loneliness is the defining condition of totalitarianism. Totalitarianism aims to rob us of the ability to act with others and of the ability to form opinions. And so loneliness and isolation accomplish that. And solitude is the opposite of both of those states. Solitude is a productive state. It's a state when you can think and you can create, which, of course, I think is what we so desperately need right now.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You know, it's interesting, a couple of other writers have told me that as they try to make sense of how they're experiencing the lockdown, that superficially, their lives really haven't changed that much. They're used to spending days at a time in front of their computer screens. They communicate mainly through phone calls, texts and email, but of course, everything else is radically different. So they do talk about feeling lonely in a new way.

[Masha Gessen]

Exactly. And it's strange. I think that I've also gone through stages. At first, I felt almost a little bit liberated, like I no longer had to go from New York to Amherst to teach my classes. I could just stay wherever I was. Even more interestingly, there was a kind of erasure of just of distance, right? I started zooming with my closest friends in Moscow every Sunday. Suddenly, it was almost a revelation. But there is no distance. We can just get on zoom. There's no difference between talking to my friend in Moscow and talking to my friend one street over. There's no distance anymore. And that felt liberating for a minute, and then it started wearing very, very thin. And there's been a wealth of writing about why zoom is so frustrating, exhausting and anxiety provoking. But it's a whole other level when that anxiety is layered on top of your closest relationships, not just in your relationships with students, for example.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And this must be particularly difficult for people who are living alone. You hear about people missing just casual contact, touch, and the kind of interplay of emotion that is just not present on the screen.

[Masha Gessen]

There was a beautiful post by the art curator Ruth Nock. She posted that she hadn't been touched in however many weeks and hadn't touched anyone in however many weeks. And she said, I wonder if in the after quarantine, people will be divided into two categories, those who were touched and those who weren't. And that struck me as an extraordinary observation. Those of us who are stuck in quarters that are too close for comfort sometimes with our families have the incredible luxury of all kinds of touch, which people who live alone just. Just don't. And I think that that's a mortifying experience, Right. That usually is reserved for people in solitary. Right. The experience of not having any human touch for weeks on end.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

America is changing and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[Katie Drummond]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

From this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Getting back to the bigger political picture here, the pandemic is obviously creating both political problems and rather frightening opportunities. And we've seen that one of Trump's talents, if you can call it that, is his ability to stoke fear. Could you talk a little bit about that and what checks remain in the United States against his autocratic tendencies.

[Masha Gessen]

So I think this is fascinating. If we weren't living through it, it would be really an extraordinary kind of theoretical problem because the elements of, of autocracy are usually talked about as terror, isolation, non participation in politics, and this weird situation that we find ourselves in. We are, I think, having the experience, in some ways, of the subjects of a totalitarian society, because we're living with this, you know, in what could be called terror or at least a state of constant anxiety because there's an actual threat to our personal safety at any given time. And then by going home and by self isolating, we're creating, or we have created, the closest that we have ever probably seen to textbook definition of authoritarianism. In an authoritarian state, you just have one authoritarian leader or a group who are making all the governing decisions, and you can't do anything about it. You're just supposed to tend to your private life. That's authoritarianism. We went home of our own volition and made our lives consist entirely of the private, just while the government is making decisions that have immediate impact on our lives.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

People have compared Trump's response to COVID 19 to the Soviet response to the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in 1986. Does that seem like a proper analogy to you?

[Masha Gessen]

It's a useful analogy. I mean, obviously, with all historical analogies, you can focus on the differences. And there are plenty that there are some really interesting and scary similarities, and probably the biggest is just the utter disregard for human life that was a feature of the Soviet government. It again is. I'm going to go back to Arendt. It's a feature of totalitarian society. Arendt wrote that the only societies that can be totalitarian are ones that can disregard mass depopulation. And this is what we're seeing. We're seeing Trump now again with talk of reopening America. Again, we're seeing that just complete lack of regard or even acknowledgement of the scale of death because he doesn't care.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

It's completely chilling. You wrote a few weeks ago that the biggest gift the pandemic may give Trump is the opportunity to envelop a greater number of people in his reality. And I guess that's a version of what you're saying here.

[Masha Gessen]

Yes, what we have lived with for the last now three and a half years is a kind of bifurcated reality where you can sort of accept Trump's view of the world. And one of my favorite examples is, of course, the inauguration when he said that the sun came out when in fact, you know, we had seen it on TV and we could. And we could rewatch it and see that. That it was actually raining. It was a kind of moment when Trump basically said, okay, make a choice. Are you going to believe your own physical sensations or what I tell you? You can live in the anxiety, the extreme discomfort of constantly trying to carry two irreconcilable realities in your head, or you can just embrace my reality and then you're no longer cognitively stressed. You can just live with me here in this Fox News affirmed reality bubble. But now, of course, we have a lot less that is given to us in physical sensation, in lived experience, especially those of us who are not going outside much. So that choice between two realities has become, in a way, starker. But it's also much easier to just enter Trump's reality.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

But will that change as some red states reopen? Trump supporters get sick. Is there any point at which reality actually does penetrate?

[Masha Gessen]

Well, I'm not holding a whole lot of hope for sort of reality changing individual worldviews, because the thing about entering a kind of Trumpian reality is that it's entirely encapsulated, and then anything that happens to contradict it can only be used to affirm it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Just to try to strike perhaps a somewhat more hopeful note, we have a piece coming up in the magazine, which you haven't seen yet by Gia Tolentino, who's writing about some of these mutual aid organizations, these grassroots groups that are springing up around the country to deliver food and medicine to people who need it. And also we're all seeing a number of local leaders and governors who are doing everything they can to fill the void in the horrific federal response and to lay out the truth about what reopening the economy is going to mean in terms of new infections and deaths. Are they any match for this president who seems to have given new meaning to the term the bully pulpit?

[Masha Gessen]

Well, it depends on how you think about it. I'm not despondent about November. I have some hope, but I'm really worried about in particular, the larger political implications of the mutual aid societies, because I think that American culture, American political culture, is really terribly, terribly suited for a crisis like this. We have a way in our political speech of always framing everything in terms of individual action, individual responsibility, because there are other ways to think about us and to think about a public health crisis as a problem of community and society rather than a subject or an object for individual action. So mutual aid societies worry me for the same reason Even though, of course, people acting together is. It's absolutely essential. It reflects our basic humanity, but it also perpetuates this vacuum of government. I don't have the same worries about governors. I think that some governors are actually doing their jobs, and that's a beautiful thing to see. But I wish there were more reflection on just how necessary government is and how no amount of community effort can or should substitute for a lack of actual government. This is what we created states for. This is what we made politics for, to solve problems that can't and shouldn't be solved individually.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

All of the underlying problems of our democracy are just grotesquely laid bare right now. You know, I was struck you you had mentioned in your most recent piece an essay by the Indian writer and activist Arundhati Roy that she wrote for the Financial Times, noting that historically, pandemics have forced humans to break with the past. And she thinks that nothing could be worse in the months ahead than a return to normality. And since so many of us are now seeing all of the things in government that are broken and just how badly we need the federal government, do think that there is a possibility that substantive political changes can emerge from this crisis?

[Masha Gessen]

I think there's a possibility. I don't know if there's a likelihood, but certainly crises are always moments of political opportunity. In the same piece, I quote Naomi Klein, who pointed out that ideas that seemed marginal just a week before the coronavirus pandemic seem almost mainstream a few weeks into it, such as universal health care, but also the idea of universal basic income. Those things are kind of hopeful, but also we need to rethink so much. There's so much that is wrong. It's not just our federal government, and it's not just, although very importantly, our attitude toward government, this idea that government is kind of a necessary evil rather than a common good. But I think that there's opportunity here to rethink, for example, education. I don't think it's ever been quite so transparent what schools are for. Schools in our society are for warehousing children. It's so that parents can go to work. What is this thing that we have created for our kids or for our industries so that parents can go to work. So there are a lot of things to question, and I wonder if we have the capacity and the will to do it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So just to follow up on the coming election, what does give you hope?

[Masha Gessen]

Well, what gives me hope is that Trump hasn't had as much of a pandemic bump as other Western leaders. Even ones who haven't done a terribly good job. And even though his ratings, his approval ratings were, have been higher during the pandemic than ever before, they're still pretty low for a sitting president. So that gives me a little bit of hope. I had the amazing journalist Jim Fallow speak to one of my classes recently, and he said that he thinks that Trump is going to lose if the laws of physics still obtain. So my question is, do the laws of physics obtain? I'm not sure about that. So that's the part that I fear. I think that the laws of physics, physics maybe stopped obtaining in 2016. And in that case, maybe, maybe my hope is misplaced. I'm, you know, I'm terribly worried about our inability as media to, to keep amplifying the election campaign. Right. I gather Joe Biden is doing a lot of things from his basement, but one wouldn't know about it by looking at the front pages of the newspapers or the television screen right now. This is happening because there's just this overwhelming sense of urgency to report everything on the coronavirus, which of course, I feel too. I feel like, you know, all of my attempts to write about anything else have left me very frustrated because I feel like I can't. Like all I want to know and try to contribute toward is the coronavirus coverage. But the picture of the world that that creates is all Trump, all the time.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That's a sober note to end on. I'm going to get you to come back as we get a little bit closer to the election and we'll talk further about that. Thank you so much, Masha.

[Masha Gessen]

Thank you, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Masha Gessen is a staff writer than the New Yorker and The author of 11 books, including Surviving Autocracy and the Future Is History. How Totalitarianism Reclaimed Russia. This has been the political scene. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker and your podcast app. And find more political analysis and commentary on new yorker.com Feel free to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Our theme music is by Russell Gillespie. This program was produced by Alex Barron and Kylie Warner. For newyorker.com I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director.

[Michael Kalore]

I'm Michael Kalore, Wired's Director of Consumer, Tech and Culture.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Katie Drummond]

At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how technology is changing every aspect of our lives. So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of the biggest stories in tech.

[Michael Kalore]

Right? So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you.

[Katie Drummond]

Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.

[Masha Gessen]

From prx.