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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Maggie Gyllenhaal on “The Deuce” and #MeToo
00:18:52
Maggie Gyllenhaal on “The Deuce” and #MeToo
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:16]
B
This is the Politics and More podcast. I'm David Remnick. Since the beginning of her career, the actress Maggie Gyllenhaal has pushed at the boundaries of how sexuality is depicted on the screen. Her first starring role was in the 2002 movie Secretary, about a troubled young woman who enters a sadomasochistic relationship with her creepy boss. It's a romantic comedy that was completely unsettling. Many acclaimed indie movies followed, and a few years ago, Gyllenhaal became a star and an executive producer of the Deuce. That's the HBO drama about the porn industry created by David Simon and George Pellicanos. Gyllenhaal plays Candy, a prostitute who sees an opportunity in doing porn films and then eventually makes her way into directing them. The third season of the Deuce and its final season starts next month. Gyllenhaal spoke with our staff writer Lauren Collins last fall live in conversation at the New Yorker Festival.
- [02:22]
C
So as an executive producer, you see the dailies? You don't have dailies.
- [02:28]
D
I see early drafts, early script, and then I also see early cuts.
- [02:33]
C
Early cuts. Okay. I'm really curious how it's been for you to have that kind of extra creative power on the show. Can you talk about a time. Tell us a note you've made?
- [02:46]
D
I'm going to tell a story about episode three. There's a scene where Candy, you know, she's been making porn, but she wants to make a. She wants to make a really good movie. It's fine for her if it's porn, but she wants it to be good. And she doesn't want mob money, so she goes out to California and she tries, for a number of reasons, and she tries to get money from this real Hollywood producer. And she's really confident in her project. And she has a great meeting with this guy, and at the end of it, he says he'll give her $10,000, which is a fraction of what she said in the previous scene. She needs. She says she needs $200,000 to $300,000. He'll give her 10 grand if she. If she gives him a blowjob.
- [03:34]
E
What story?
- [03:36]
D
A Little Red Riding Hood.
- [03:38]
E
It's not bad.
- [03:39]
D
Yeah. Practically bring the whole family.
- [03:44]
E
Don't take this the wrong way, but you're probably a little too old to play Little Red. So I'm guessing the grandmother.
- [03:52]
D
No, I'm the director.
- [03:54]
E
Actress. Director, right?
- [03:55]
D
No, behind the camera. That's all.
- [03:58]
E
Candy, this is a business. People aren't buying tickets to see the director's credit.
- [04:03]
D
So you're saying what?
- [04:05]
E
I'm an investor. I have to be smart about where I put my money.
- [04:08]
D
So. So, what, you're not gonna pony up unless I fuck on film?
- [04:14]
E
Well, I haven't seen your recent stuff, but I'm sure you still look great. Tell you what, I'll write you a check for 10 grand and 10% of the action right now if you come over here and suck my cock while I'm doing it.
- [04:40]
D
Yeah, David told me about that scene early on. And with David, I always have a running kind of conversation going on set when we see each other about what's coming up and what's, you know, whatever. Cut. I've just seen whatever. So he says, okay. Coming up is, I'm thinking about this. And he says, I think she should tell him to fuck off and she should leave. And I said, she can't do that. She has to do it. And he was like. I was also thinking that, you know, I mean, it's not like. It's not like, totally my idea or something. You know, he was on either side, but he was testing out on me, okay? She walks out and blows him off. I mean, leaves. And I was like, no, no, she can't. Because, of course. How do I put this? It's much less usual that we as women have been asked to actually give a blowjob for money. But many women have been asked to compromise themselves in much subtler ways and have done it.
- [05:52]
C
And we don't get to hear the stories of when people say yes, exactly either.
- [05:56]
D
Exactly. But think in your own. I mean, I'm sure he didn't do what Candy did, but maybe you did. But I mean, ways in which you look back and you go, oh, my God, how did I. How did I, like, laugh at that joke or stay in that meeting or put that shirt on or whatever, right? That we've all done. And I was like, why does Candy get to be better than us? You know, she's not better than us. She's the same. And so. And I said, but you have to have the moment with her after. That's what you have to have. Please.
- [06:30]
C
Right?
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D
So that I get to have. You get to have a moment with her after. You get to see what it cost her. You get to have. And it meant a lot to me. So we shoot it. I'm really pleased with all of it. And then we shoot a scene at the end of the episode where I've got the check and the scene's just written, I've got the check, and, I don't know, I take it out and look at it or something. But as we were shooting it, somehow I had this song in my head. Who is it? Cardi B. Maybe that's like, I Got Money Moves, you know, that song. That is definitely Cardi B. Cardi B. And I was like, it's not just that Kandi's thinking, like, oh, yes, I made this money or something. No, it's all sorts of things, but there's a part of her that's like. Like, I'm gonna make my movie, you know? But all the other things are included in it, too. So anyway, I'm all happy with all that. How strange it is and unusual and it doesn't fit into a box, you know? And then I get to set shooting episode four. Actually, I was shadowing the director on episode four. So I was there all the time. And somebody said to me, I think we're gonna cut that scene out after the blowjob. And I thought about it. I thought, okay, maybe they're right. Maybe you don't need it. And I went Back and watched it. I thought a lot about it. And then I explained to them, I said, look, this is why our show is current. You see the cost. You have to see the cost to the woman who's done this thing. And George said to me, he said, I don't. Okay. He said, I don't understand, though, why she's okay with it in the room, then not okay with it after, and then kind of okay with it again in her apartment. And I was like, okay, that's what I'm talking about, about a feminine perspective.
- [08:28]
C
Trust me on this one.
- [08:29]
D
It isn't a linear. And look, I understand that, like, many men, including George Pelecanos, don't think in, like, a straight linear line. I mean, many, many men. I know, my husband, my brother, you know, but there's something about the way that narrative is set up that I think usually requires that. And I was like, right, no, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not doing that.
- [08:51]
C
Well, I'm so interested. I mean, you find yourself doing this show that is just all about what we're all thinking about right now.
- [08:59]
D
I know.
- [09:00]
C
Sex, power, the dynamic between the two, feminism, exploitation, all of these things. What's the conversation going on at the Deuce about reality and your show and the way that they intertwine?
- [09:15]
D
That is what the show's about. The show is about what's on everyone's mind right now. I mean, look, if you look at the scene that I just described, in some ways, how little has changed.
- [09:24]
C
I heard you say on NPR that you all had created kind of a new job on this set and hired an intimacy coordinator who. It sounds kind of funny, but it's not. It's really an interesting and good idea, it seems like. So the idea, right, is that, like, if you're doing a fight scene, there's a fight co. What's that person called? A fight coordinator. And if you're doing sex scenes all day long. Yeah. You also need somebody to ask people, hey, are you okay? Do you need anything? Like, is this all going okay? And so, I mean, you all have taken steps, right, to try to make sure that that environment.
- [10:07]
D
Yeah. I mean, basically, this is, you know, like, what I'm talking about. People sort of waking up and going, whoa, wait, why did I do. Wait, why did I accept this? And why did I accept this? And our president gets to say out loud, you can grab women by their pussy if you have enough power. Nobody cares. And they just elect him president anyway. Or, you know, we. I think we just started going like, whoa, what? And because of all that, at that time, I was in some meetings with other actresses, and we were talking about.
- [10:42]
C
Are these, like, kind of the meetings when you were setting up Time's up the Legal Defense Fund, or.
- [10:47]
D
It was just very early on, like, before that.
- [10:50]
C
Okay.
- [10:51]
D
Kind of casual. I just was, like, invited to a couple of meetings and went and listened to, you know, and spoke with women who I really admired, who did. Who are actresses. And one of the things we were talking about was. Yeah, it was sex scenes. And how. Yeah, when you do a stunt, even if someone, like, just pretends to slap you or whatever, there's always a stunt coordinator there. There's always somebody there who is looking out to make sure that you're physically safe and there's not with sex scenes. And why not? And we also talked about things like, just the way it is on a set. Often they're like, we don't have any time. Is it cool if you just get wired for sound? Just, like, right here. We'll just, you know, do it here. Which means you pull your shirt up and someone's got their hands up your bra. And then maybe you have to open your pants and put a. And, you know, if you have experience and if you know the sound guy really well because you've been working all the time, or if you're powerful, it's easy to say, no, I don't actually feel comfortable here. Let's go back to my trailer. Or do you mind if we go in this private room? But if you are 22 and you've got two lines and you're psyched to have the gig, and you're like, oh, this is how you do it. Okay? And someone's then got their hands up your shirt, you know, and we were all like, yeah, that's not right. Never even thought of that. You know, little things with hundreds of things like that, where you're like, right.
- [12:25]
C
So I was surprised to hear you say, in describing these meetings, maybe these early meetings, but also meetings that took place when you all were organizing Time's.
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D
Up, that I wasn't an organizer of Time Zone. I was a.
- [12:38]
C
You were a signatory.
- [12:40]
D
Yeah.
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C
Yeah, okay. But you said something about. Yeah, it was really amazing being in a room with all these smart, interesting women. And I was surprised. Like, I would think that happens a lot. Our kind of, you know.
- [12:52]
D
No, I felt when I was there, I was just a two meeting.
- [12:55]
C
I guess what I'm saying is just, do women in Hollywood, like, not get together a Lot.
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D
There's a kind of a thing, I think, where you're like, well, I'm in direct competition with these five people all the time. And not really, like, I don't. Like, most of the people who get jobs that I want, I think are really good, you know, so. And I do have, like, just real respect for. And yet there's a kind of a weird thing.
- [13:23]
C
Cause writers, we have, like, nothing better to do than hang out with each other all the time. I was like, oh, they like Hollywood Girls Night Off.
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D
So, like, you work together in a publication, right? You know what I mean? Like, I. I guess I knew some people who I had worked with, but.
- [13:39]
C
Do you think there's been a mounting sense of solidarity amongst women? You can say no.
- [13:46]
D
No, I do think so. Yeah. I do. In general, right? Yeah. And in Hollywood, too. Yeah, I think so.
- [13:55]
C
Let's talk about directing. So this Ferrante adaptation that you're doing.
- [14:00]
D
I feel like something about what's happening in the world right now has shifted my thinking about whether or not I can direct or can begin to think about directing. And I also feel like playing Candy. I mean, like, that shifted me in terms of feeling like I could direct. And so I asked. I just went to the source.
- [14:26]
C
How does one go to Elena Ferrante?
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D
Elena Ferrante, because she is just a pen name, you know, she's anonymous. We went to her publisher, and I. They said, you need to write to her. And I. Right before I turned 40 last November, I spent a few weeks writing this letter to Elena Ferrante, as one would. I mean, to me, I was like.
- [14:55]
C
Did you have it. Did you then have it translated or.
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D
I didn't. I let her do that. Ann Goldstein, maybe, Right? I don't know. But I said what I wanted to say to her about how I imagined the lost daughter. And she came back and said, you can have the rights, but you have to direct it. I'm only giving the rights to you to direct. And I said I wanted to direct it, but really, there was a moment a few months later where I was like, well, I mean, I don't know. What if we can't finance it with me directing it? And what if something happens? And she said, no.
- [15:33]
C
My paraphrase of this is, do whatever you want of it, but it better be really good. But what she wrote was, women have to contribute to an artistic genealogy of our own that stands up in terms of intelligent refinement, skill, richness of invention, emotional density to the male tradition. No pressure, but it makes Me want.
- [15:53]
D
To cry, actually, because it's like the woman who I admire basically saying, like, you can do it. And who better than her? So anyway, Bronte also was. I had that same experience where I was like, whoa, this is. This is going in pure. Like, I'm. I have never heard these things articulated before. I remember, like, there was one point where I was like, this woman is so fucked up. And then I was like, I totally relate to her.
- [16:27]
C
What point was that?
- [16:28]
D
I don't know. I mean, like, 20 million times in those books, and I've never heard this said out loud before. And I'm comforted by hearing it said out loud. I mean, in days of abandonment, I dropped that book and couldn't pick it up for a couple days. I want to walk a tightrope where you can't fall off either edge, right? And I want to. I want to be constantly considering, like, from an emotional place, how to tell the story so you don't fall off the edge. And yet, even though I think that's how I always thought about all of it, there's been times I've been an actress for hire, and I popped in and I did my thing, but almost never. Like, I don't get asked to do that very much. I think those are lucrative jobs, and I wish sometimes they would ask me.
- [17:16]
C
But anyway, she's available, but.
- [17:19]
D
So then I. But I still never felt, like, interested in directing, maybe, or, like, I could direct. And I have a long way to go. I'm adapting the screenplay. I have to say, for me, where my work is always collaborative, where I'm always, okay, this is what I know I need in this scene. How do I get it? How do I have this conversation? Or maybe I just change the line and, you know, it's always either a conversation or some kind of complicated collaboration to just get to sit by myself and go as slow as I want and take as much time as I want and just consider it's like heaven. So that's where my heart is right now, to be honest. And I'm about two thirds of the way through the adaptation.
- [18:22]
C
Do you have any intention of acting in it?
- [18:24]
D
No. No. I think that's too much for me. But I'm fascinated, I have to say, to work with an incredible actress. I have so much experience of being directed and what feels good to me and what doesn't. And I'm so interested to observe someone and support someone going through something difficult.
- [18:52]
C
It feels like you'll have the opportunity to kind of pay it forward, you know? From Elena Ferrante to whoever this.
- [18:57]
D
Well, also, have you noticed? I don't know if you noticed. I feel like Candy is such a kind director. Things go wrong. She, like, takes care of her actors. She, you know, even in season one, she, like, makes sure they're fed. I mean, that's the bare minimum, obviously, but on a porn set, that doesn't that. You can't take that for granted. But I believe in kindness. I think about the actor, the directors. I mean, Scott Cooper. I remember one day I was doing this difficult scene with Jeff Bridges early on, and he just came up to me and he was like, I love you. I was like, oh, good. You know, you just feel that's important to feel loved. It's important to feel seen and appreciated and respected and loved. And so I'm anticipating. I'm looking forward to being able to do that to somebody else.
- [19:53]
C
Maggie, thank you much so, so much for being here today.
- [19:56]
D
Thank you.
- [20:07]
F
What the hell is going on right now? And why is it happening like this? At Wired, we're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis. And maybe you are, too. I'm Katie Drummond, the global editorial director of Wired, and I'm hosting our new podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.
- [20:34]
D
I want a shark that.
- [20:35]
F
That eats the Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid.
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D
So in a lot of ways, I try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online. To the best of my ability, every.
- [20:48]
F
Week, we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times, meaning and context. True or false. You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me. One day, at some point, as of yet undefined in the future, you will die. False. Tell me more. Listen to the Big Interview right now in the same place you find Wired's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:18]
D
From. Prx.