Podcast Summary: Malcolm Gladwell Talks to Dorothy Wickenden About School Shooters
Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: March 14, 2016
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Malcolm Gladwell
Episode Overview
In this episode of The Political Scene, Dorothy Wickenden talks with Malcolm Gladwell, staff writer at The New Yorker and bestselling author, about the psychology behind school shootings in America. Drawing from his article "Thresholds of Violence," Gladwell introduces a sociological perspective, comparing the evolution of school shootings to the spread of social contagion, particularly that of riots. The discussion centers on how the motivations of school shooters have changed over time, the impact of media and the internet, and the limitations of gun control as a solution.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Case of John LeDoux and the Modern School Shooter
- Gladwell introduces John LeDoux, a student caught preparing to bomb his high school:
- LeDoux was an honor roll student, not abused, traumatized, or socially alienated aside from being "on the spectrum" (Asperger’s).
- His parents were unaware of the severity of his plans, seeing his interest in making small bombs as "normal" science geek behavior.
- Quote:
"His parents are incredibly alarmed because he’s in police custody… it’s past 9 o’clock and he’s never out past 9 o’clock. He’s that kind of dutiful a child."
— Malcolm Gladwell (02:13)
- Discussion about normalization of dangerous hobbies:
- Both Gladwell and Wickenden debate whether making bombs as a child is typical, with Gladwell suggesting experimentation with explosives is a longstanding adolescent curiosity, especially among boys.
Shifting Motivations: From Psychopathology to Social Contagion
- Gladwell draws a contrast between early school shooters, who were often deeply disturbed, and more recent incidents involving seemingly "normal" students.
- Gladwell references Mark Granovetter’s riot theory:
- People have different "thresholds" for participating in riots.
- Early shooters had extremely low thresholds — acting out intense pathology.
- Over time, as the phenomenon persisted, more "ordinary" individuals began participating.
- Quote:
"If you have a riot of 100 people, you could hypothetically have a group... each of whom had a different threshold ranging from 0 to 99. The 99th person in is my mother… if absolutely every one of her cronies from church were rioting, she might riot."
— Malcolm Gladwell (05:32)
How School Shootings Resemble Social Epidemics
- Wickenden asks if Gladwell's earlier ideas from "The Tipping Point" could be used to counteract these acts.
- Gladwell’s view on the "contagion" model:
- Media no longer the central vector; the internet and shooter subcultures spread the phenomenon independently.
- It's now largely out of society’s ability to curb simply by changing media coverage.
- Quote:
"These days… they are participating in a subculture which is sustained by the shooters themselves. They are going on YouTube and finding the relevant videos. They are reading the online journals… They have their own unbelievably rich, exhaustive library..."
— Malcolm Gladwell (09:07)
The Role of Gun Control
- Gladwell is skeptical about gun control as a sole solution:
- While gun control may prevent some cases, school shootings are not a simple result of availability of guns.
- He points out that other countries with fewer guns have experienced school shootings, and many shooters use guns that would be available under stricter laws.
- Quote:
"What we’re looking at here is a powerful, contagious adolescent cultural pathology that has used the availability of guns to extend its reach."
— Malcolm Gladwell (10:34) - Gladwell still endorses gun control for other reasons:
"Gun control can solve the much bigger problem of the kind of unpremeditated shootings... that claim the lives of tens of thousands of Americans every year. That’s the reason to ban guns."
— Malcolm Gladwell (12:16)
Parenting, Prevention, and Social Context
- Advice to parents:
- Gladwell suggests not to panic about adolescent interests in explosives or guns; historically, such interests often lead to productive scientific careers if properly channeled.
- He speculates that the end of compulsory military service may have removed a traditional outlet for these impulses, leading to less healthy expressions.
- Quote:
"Many of them went on to be great chemists… Let’s do that. As opposed to denying that it exists."
— Malcolm Gladwell (13:31) - Wickenden notes her own perspective raising daughters, contrasting with the behaviors Gladwell describes as typical in boys.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On motivations of school shooters:
"In the beginning you see these kind of florid indices of pathology. But by the time we get to John LeDoux... the longer this phenomenon persists, the more likely it is for someone who is relatively normal to participate."
— Malcolm Gladwell (07:22–08:40) -
On the media’s role:
"I used to believe [notoriety was the problem]. Now I think it’s nonsense.... They are participating in a subculture which is sustained by the shooters themselves."
— Malcolm Gladwell (09:07) -
On gun control:
"Those who say that you can solve this problem with gun control are engaging in a fantasy... It so grossly simplifies what’s going on here."
— Malcolm Gladwell (10:34) -
On channeling dangerous curiosity:
"This impulse can be channeled in very positive directions. Let’s do that. As opposed to denying that it exists."
— Malcolm Gladwell (13:31) -
On the end of the draft as a contributing factor:
"I wonder whether that this isn’t a kind of unintended consequence of the end of compulsory military service."
— Malcolm Gladwell (14:15)
Key Timestamps
- 01:16–02:13: Introduction of John LeDoux case
- 05:32–06:57: Explanation of Granovetter’s riot threshold theory
- 09:07–10:26: Gladwell on media, internet, and social contagion
- 10:34–12:14: Gladwell on the gun control debate
- 13:05–13:31: Parenting, adolescent curiosity, and positive channels
- 14:15–14:31: Compulsory military service and shifting outlets for adolescent masculinity
Conclusion
Malcolm Gladwell’s analysis provides a layered understanding of the school shooting epidemic, rejecting easy explanations and advocating for social, psychological, and cultural context. Rather than simple solutions such as ending media coverage or strengthening gun laws, he urges a closer look at the evolution of adolescent pathology, the power of subcultures, and how society might constructively redirect dangerous curiosities. The conversation is sobering, nuanced, and challenges listeners to reconsider mainstream narratives.