The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Masha Gessen and Keith Gessen Debate Russian and American Politics
Date: April 15, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Masha Gessen & Keith Gessen
Context: Live conversation at the 2018 New Yorker Festival

Overview

In this insightful and candid conversation, siblings and celebrated writers Masha Gessen (staff writer, The New Yorker) and Keith Gessen (journalist, novelist, and Columbia journalism professor) offer a deeply personal and intellectual exploration of Russian-American relationships—both on the geopolitical stage and within their émigré family. Touching on immigration, historical narratives, identity, the post-Soviet experience, and the shifting perceptions of Russia in the US, the Gessens interrogate both American and Russian politics with characteristic clarity, skepticism, and humor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transnational Lives, Family Immigration, and Identity

• Masha’s Dual Life:
  • Masha reflects on the experience of emigrating from the USSR, living in the US, returning to post-Soviet Russia, and then resettling in America.
  • She jokes about the emotional relief:

    “Nobody liked him here. And that put him at ease...It's really lovely to just not have that on a daily basis. Like, I hardly get any death threats. It's lovely.”
    (Masha, 03:49–04:35)

• Family Sacrifice and Motivation:
  • Keith and Masha discuss their parents’ courageous choice to relocate, particularly to avoid explicit anti-Semitic discrimination in Soviet universities.

    “I've thought about what kind of courage it would have taken to just step into the abyss.”
    (Masha, 05:22)

  • Their father’s positive framing of immigration as a “great adventure.”
    (Masha, 06:23)

2. Perception of Russia in the United States

• Evolving Narratives:
  • Masha notes how the American perception of Russia shifted dramatically over her five years back in the US; Russia went from post–Cold War irrelevancy to being a central, almost demonic player in US politics.
    (Masha, 06:45–07:04)
• Role of the “Putin Expert”:
  • Masha recounts the irony of being labeled both a “Putin shill” and a “Putin critic” online, highlighting the polarized and conspiratorial thinking prevalent in current US discourse.

    “I've been called a... paid Putin propagandist.”
    (Masha, 07:24)

3. Journalistic Influence and Responsibility

• Unintended Impact:
  • Masha and Keith dissect the unpredictable influence of journalism and authored narratives on public opinion and imagination. Masha is ambivalent about her impact on Putin-related discourse in America.

    “It is so impossible to predict how much influence what you write will have...”
    (Masha, 08:34)

• Dichotomy of Blame in US-Russia Relations:
  • Discussing Keith’s NYT Magazine article on “Russia hands,” they identify two camps: those who blame Russia for all diplomatic wrongs, and those who blame American policy.

    “That almost perfectly describes the stories that I have been writing versus the stories that you’ve been writing.”
    (Masha, 09:58)

4. Structural Forces and Policy—NATO, The ‘Deep State,’ and Obama’s Dilemma

• Institutional Momentum vs. Presidential Will:
  • Keith explains how US presidents come and go, but policy is often guided by a small, consistent cadre of national security bureaucrats, especially regarding NATO expansion.

    “Presidents come and go...but there is this kind of small core that moves between the State Department and the National Security Council.”
    (Keith, 11:17)

  • They debate whether NATO expansion was a preemptive defense or a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    (Keith & Masha, 12:47–13:01)

5. Fiction as Political Critique—Keith's “A Terrible Country”

• On Writing and Soviet Legacies:
  • Keith describes the evolution of his novel from a failed academic exercise into a story that centers on the grandmother’s experience and the realities of post-Soviet collapse.

    “Her life needs to make the central argument about what happened after the Soviet Union fell apart.”
    (Keith, 14:04–14:05)

  • Masha praises the finished work:

    “I read it in like one night instead of sleeping. ...No, but it's a really great book.”
    (Masha, 15:15)

6. Surviving Autocracy—Rules for the Trump Era

• On Predicting Autocratic Moves:

  • Masha revisits her “Rules for Autocracy,” acknowledging the difficulty of accurate political forecasting while underscoring the wisdom in her central rule:

    “Believe the autocrat. When he says he’s gonna do something nasty, chances are he will.”
    (Keith quoting Masha, 15:50; Masha, 16:28)

  • She recounts her emotional state post-2016 election and the temptation/dangers of making predictions:

    “It means that journalists should never make predictions is what it means.”
    (Masha, 16:28)

  • Reporting on Putin, she found:

    “He said exactly what he was planning to do. But people both in Russia and in this country had ideas about what he represented that had nothing to do with what he was putting forward.”
    (Masha, 17:53–18:16)

• American Institutions and Their Resilience

  • Keith raises the question of institutional failure vs. resilience.
  • Masha asserts:

    “I don't think [the institutions have] held up better than I expected. And I think the damage he's been able to do has been profound.”
    (Masha, 18:27)

  • The Supreme Court, especially the Kavanaugh hearing, is emblematic of this institutional vulnerability.
    (Masha, 18:27–19:05)
  • Masha:

    “Trump didn’t come out from outer space. He did not actually come from Russia. He came from here.”
    (Masha, 19:21)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Keith on Sibling Shadows:

  “She is the person in whose shadow I dwell, but in fact, it is more like she is the sunlight in whose rays I grow.”
  (Keith, 02:44)

• Masha on Emigration:

  “I've thought about what kind of courage it would have taken to just step into the abyss.”
  (Masha, 05:22)

• Keith on Policy-Makers:

  “Presidents come and go...but there is this kind of small core that moves between the State Department and the National Security Council.”
  (Keith, 11:17)

• Masha on Autocrats:

  “Believe the autocrat. When he says he’s gonna do something nasty, chances are he will.”
  (Keith quoting Masha, 15:50)

• Masha on Institutions:

  “I don't think [the institutions have] held up better than I expected. And I think the damage he's been able to do has been profound and has perhaps even been more profound than I thought in the first two years.”
  (Masha, 18:27)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Personal Backgrounds (01:16–04:35)
• Discussing Parents’ Immigration & its Significance (04:36–06:23)
• Russia’s Perception in America & Online Polarization (06:45–08:29)
• Journalistic Responsibility & Shaping Narratives (08:34–10:10)
• Blame in US-Russia Relations; American vs. Russian Agency (10:10–13:01)
• Keith’s Novel & Changing Narrative Approach (13:01–15:15)
• Masha’s “Rules for Autocracy” & Journalistic Caution (15:50–16:28)
• Institutions in the Trump Era & The Supreme Court (18:16–19:21)
• Closing Reflections (19:21–19:30)

Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation balances intellectual rigor and personal warmth, with frequent dry humor and frank self-reflection. Both siblings trade insights from their professional and family lives, modeling civil debate about issues that often provoke heated arguments elsewhere.

Useful For

• Listeners interested in the intersections of Russian and American politics, journalism, and émigré identity
• Anyone seeking thoughtful, nuanced takes on US-Russia relations beyond daily headlines
• Readers of both Masha and Keith Gessen’s work looking for meta-commentary on their writing and public reception

This episode stands out for its blend of memoir, debate, and analysis—delivered with candor, skepticism, and literary sharpness.