Podcast Summary: "Nick Denton Talks to David Remnick About Gawker"

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: July 18, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Nick Denton (Founder, Gawker Media)

Episode Overview

In this candid and sharp-edged conversation, The New Yorker’s David Remnick interviews Nick Denton, the founder of Gawker Media, about the rise and stunning fall of his disruptive media company. Denton reflects on Gawker’s controversial editorial philosophy, the high-profile lawsuit led by Hulk Hogan and secretly bankrolled by Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel, and the broader consequences for media, free speech, and personal privacy in the internet age. The episode also explores Denton's persona, the ethics of "outing," and Gawker’s uncertain future as it faces bankruptcy and potential sale.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gawker’s Philosophy: "When in Doubt, Put It Out"

• Denton’s Editorial Approach:

  • Gawker’s "when in doubt, put it out" philosophy prioritized transparency and a willingness to publish stories others wouldn’t touch.
    • "Our impetus was always, when in doubt, put it out." — Nick Denton [03:35]
  • Denton acknowledges he embraced a "dark lord" persona as a defense mechanism against criticism, and admits it could make him seem daunting or mean-spirited at times.
    • "Makes it a little bit easier to deal with the inevitable criticism of articles...if you have that reputation of somebody who puts the story first." — Nick Denton [03:47]

• Comparison to Mainstream Media:

  • Remnick contrasts Gawker's approach with more traditional media outlets:
    • "Whereas at places like mine or the New York Times or the Washington Post...that's not the rule of the road. When in doubt, put it out. Something different." — David Remnick [04:06]
  • Denton champions a diverse media "ecosystem," claiming the British press often got to the truth faster by being less cautious.
    • "The British press got to the truth in its own way, I'd say about six to 12 months before the American press." — Nick Denton [04:57]

2. The Ethics and Impact of Outing

• Personal Motivation and the Double Standard:

  • Denton discusses being driven by his experience as a gay man and frustration with unspoken "open secrets."
    • "Maybe it was because I was gay and I grew up hating open secrets...let's just have it out. The truth will set you free." — David Remnick quoting Denton [06:59]
  • Argues that media often applies different standards to publicizing heterosexual versus homosexual relationships, which he viewed as discriminatory.
    • "The thing that always offended me the most was the double standard...that same standard was not applied to gay people." — Nick Denton [07:37]

• Who Decides?

  • Remnick challenges Denton's rationale: "Why does Nick Denton get to decide?" [08:10]
  • Denton claims it’s about reporting the facts, not deciding someone’s agency, and contends the open acknowledgment can be empowering for marginalized groups.
    • "If information is traveling around [already]...I think the world is a lot healthier..." — Nick Denton [08:14, 08:54]

3. The Peter Thiel Vendetta and the Hulk Hogan Lawsuit

• Gawker’s Coverage of Thiel & Its Fallout:

  • Gawker "outed" Peter Thiel in 2007, sowing deep resentment.
    • "It's a positive piece...He was annoyed, I believe, about mockery of his political opinions." — Nick Denton [10:06]
  • Denton describes Thiel as a "strange sort of Nietzschean libertarian," noting their coverage didn’t always treat Thiel’s "serious political ideas" with respect.
    • "We didn't treat them with a huge amount of respect, and then we covered business dealings that were inconvenient for him." [10:38]

• Hulk Hogan Trial and Bankruptcy:

  • Remnick explains the $140 million verdict against Gawker for publishing the Hogan sex tape, later revealed to be funded by Thiel as an act of revenge.
    • "A billionaire financing secret lawsuits against a media company, no matter what it's done, is an extremely dangerous trend." — David Remnick [11:46]
  • Denton insists the tape was newsworthy and defends Gawker’s editorial choice.
    • "The Hulk Hogan story is a newsworthy story. Federal judge found it newsworthy." — Nick Denton [11:57]

• Damage in Court:

  • Denton admits Gawker made mistakes in the trial, notably a dark joke from then-editor A.J. Daulerio about editorial boundaries, which was used against them.
    • "AJ Delario...made a dark New York blogger joke that a tape of a four year old would clearly not be acceptable. And that was...everywhere." — Nick Denton [12:23]

4. Fate of Gawker Media & Media’s Uncertain Future

• Sale & Job Security:

  • With Gawker in bankruptcy, Denton affirms a binding sale agreement with Ziff Davis for $90 million, suggesting most jobs would be preserved.
    • "That transaction should close in August and that will preserve the brands...most of the jobs will be safeguarded and that's my top priority right now." — Nick Denton [13:48]
  • Profitability, not promises, is the best "insurance policy" for continued independence.
    • "We've got one of the most successful e-commerce businesses, so we're not even solely dependent on advertising." — Nick Denton [14:32]

• Denton’s Next Steps:

  • He plans to consult for Ziff Davis and may do more writing, emphasizing the unpredictable, dramatic narrative of the Gawker saga.
    • "If you're going to be in the middle of a story as juicy, epic as this, this story, every single time it's had a choice as to which turn to take, it's always taken the more interesting turn." — Nick Denton [15:12]

• Legacy & Final Reflections:

  • Despite grim industry trends, Denton expresses pride in making internet journalism more vibrant, diverse, and willing to challenge power:
    • "Journalism now is more vibrant and more diverse and everything is being discussed, everything does eventually come out." — Nick Denton [16:12]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Somebody called me in a blog post, dark Lord Balthazar, because I...suppose I was a dark lord." — Nick Denton [03:04]
• "It's a more general phenomenon that when you let everybody speak freely...not all of it is going to be what you like." — Nick Denton [06:16]
• "There's a certain amount of karmic justice...a quote by AJ [Daulerio] would similarly be taken out of context, used in the trial, and used...to hang us." — Nick Denton [13:07]
• "What more interesting billionaire secret backer could you imagine than Peter Thiel? Somebody who is trying to free himself of terrestrial government but supports Trump in the meantime..." — Nick Denton [15:12]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Gawker’s editorial values and persona [03:04–06:14]
• "When in doubt, put it out": implications and regrets [04:05–06:03]
• The ethics and impact of outing [06:59–09:19]
• Peter Thiel, Gawker, and the beginning of a vendetta [09:19–11:12]
• The Hulk Hogan sex tape lawsuit and media consequences [11:12–13:33]
• Gawker’s bankruptcy and the Ziff Davis sale [13:33–15:12]
• Denton’s reflections on internet journalism's legacy [16:00–16:52]

Conclusion

This episode delivers a nuanced, reflective, and sometimes unrepentant account of the Gawker Media saga, illuminating the ethical tightropes and shifting power structures of internet-era journalism. Denton's philosophy and choices, both celebrated and reviled, offer a pointed meditation on transparency, privacy, and what’s at stake when the press and the powerful collide.