Nick Paumgarten Talks to Nicholas Thompson about Drones and the FAA

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Nick Paumgarten Talks to Nicholas Thompson about Drones and the FAA"

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: December 21, 2015
Host: Nicholas Thompson
Guest: Nicholas Paumgarten, New Yorker staff writer
Additional Guest: Greg McNeil, Professor of Law and Public Policy, Pepperdine University

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Overview:

This episode delves into the soaring popularity of consumer drones, new FAA regulations aimed at making drone ownership safer and more accountable, and the broader cultural, political, and ethical issues that drones are introducing into American life. The conversation explores the utility, risks, and public perception of consumer drones; shifts in drone technology from military use to civilian adoption; and concerns about privacy, surveillance, and the future of drone policy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Surge in Consumer Drone Sales

• The Consumer Technology Association estimated that 400,000 drones would be sold over the 2015 holiday season [01:34].
• The hosts and guests attribute this to drones being "cool," exciting, and increasingly affordable, but recognize this surge as a potential safety concern for regulators and the public.

2. FAA's New Registration Guidelines ([03:11]–[06:12])

Greg McNeil (FAA committee member) summarizes the new regulatory process:

• All drones under 55 pounds must be registered with the federal government.
  • "The Secretary of Transportation at the end of October issued an order that said all unmanned aircraft under 55 pounds need to be registered with the federal government." — Greg McNeil [03:41]
• Three-step registration:
  1. Fill out an electronic form (web or app)
  2. Receive instant electronic certificate & registration number
  3. Attach the number to all your drones
• The goal: "to ensure individuals understood these were not just toys, but objects entering national airspace." — Nicholas Thompson [04:56]
• The FAA’s urgency is largely tied to the holiday sales boom, and to the growing number of drone-related incidents.

3. Are Recreational Drones Dangerous? ([05:13])

• Greg McNeil: "I don't believe they're dangerous, although any device can be dangerous when operated in an unsafe way." [05:27]
• He notes that even small drones at 400 feet could be deadly, but in many cases drones may be safer alternatives to helicopters for filming, etc.
• Emphasis on responsible use and clear regulations for safety.

4. Cultural Fascination and Anxiety

• Nicholas Paumgarten reflects on the coming wave of hobbyist drones, conjuring “the sound of collisions, cartoon collisions all over town… like the way New York or cities have sneakers hanging from trees, these are going to be the new sneakers.” [07:28]
• Drones are hailed for their "awesome" capabilities: pipeline inspections, agriculture, traffic monitoring, wildlife studies, and potentially delivery services ([07:56]).

5. The Military Legacy & Psychological Impact ([08:36])

• Drones’ roots as military technology color public perception:
  • "The drone boom was a result of our being at war… it’s sort of the flying robot soldiers are looking for jobs…" — Nicholas Paumgarten [09:02]
• Even consumer drones carry an “element of death from above… still attached to that wrapping paper.” — Nicholas Paumgarten [09:02]

6. Security, Terrorism, and Surveillance Concerns ([09:51])

• Questions raised about drones’ potential for terrorism:
  • Paumgarten is less worried about criminal uses, more concerned about mass surveillance by authorities:
    • "Frankly, putting on my tinfoil hat here, I'm more afraid of drones in the hands of the authorities." [10:31]
• Notable moment: The “drone vigilante” story where a private citizen used a drone to film prostitution, leading to prosecution of both the prostitute and client ([10:41]):
  • Paumgarten: "I just don't like the idea of people running around videotaping other people doing things, even if it's against the law." [11:10]

7. Delivery Drones: Hype vs. Reality ([11:41])

• Reference to Amazon’s viral drone delivery video, skepticism about its technical feasibility and actual need:
  • "If it's really just getting a soccer cleat in half an hour as opposed to 24 hours, I'm not sure that's a game changer." — Nicholas Paumgarten [12:50]

8. Drones as Helpers – and Humblers ([13:10])

• Paumgarten humorously imagines a future where a drone helps him with a flat tire:
  • "Along will come some drone, and it'll just hover right in front of me in some really kind voice say, excuse me, sir, can we help you?" [13:14]
• Follow-up joke about drones potentially filming your misfortune for YouTube:
  • "You can coexist, shame, and help." — Nicholas Paumgarten [13:41]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There’s sort of an element of death from above… still attached to that wrapping paper."
  — Nicholas Paumgarten [09:02]
• "Even something as small as 2 or 3 pounds when it gets up in the air at 400ft becomes rather deadly."
  — Greg McNeil [05:27]
• "Frankly, putting on my tinfoil hat here, I'm more afraid of drones in the hands of the authorities."
  — Nicholas Paumgarten [10:31]
• "I just don't like the idea of people running around videotaping other people doing things, even if it's against the law."
  — Nicholas Paumgarten [11:10]
• "If it's really just getting a soccer cleat in half an hour as opposed to 24 hours, I'm not sure that's a game changer."
  — Nicholas Paumgarten [12:50]
• "You can coexist, shame, and help."
  — Nicholas Paumgarten [13:41]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:11 — Greg McNeil joins to explain FAA registration rules
• 05:13 — Are recreational drones truly dangerous?
• 07:07 — Nicholas Paumgarten on the cultural impact of drones
• 08:36 — Discussion about drones' military legacy
• 09:51 — Drones, terrorism, and surveillance anxieties
• 10:41 — “Drone vigilante” story and privacy concerns
• 11:41 — Amazon delivery drones and skepticism
• 13:10 — Drones as helpers (and accidental embarrassers)

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains a thoughtful, lightly irreverent tone, mixing policy analysis, social commentary, and humor. Paumgarten balances enthusiasm for technological progress with caution about ethical and social implications, while Thompson and the other hosts bring out a variety of perspectives on how drones might improve — or complicate — modern life.

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Conclusion

If you’re interested in how drone technology is moving from the battlefield to backyards, what policymakers are doing to keep up, and the cultural dilemmas that come with flying robots, this conversation delivers a nuanced, lively overview. It’s as much about the rules as it is about the world drones are helping shape.

Transcript

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[Nicholas Thompson]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden, and on today's Politics and More podcast, the editor of newyorker.com, nicholas Thompson, talks to New Yorker staff writer Nicholas Paumgarten about drones and the new FAA regulations that are to make them more consumer friendly.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

The Consumer Technology association, an industry group, estimates that 400,000 drones will be sold this holiday season. And there's a reason for that. They're cool. They're exciting. The technology is evolving in remarkable ways. But the fact also might keep you up at night if you're in charge of transportation safety.

[Nicholas Thompson]

We fully appreciate the potential of unmanned aircraft to transform transportation, commerce and quality of life.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

That's Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx at a press conference in October.

[Nicholas Thompson]

But we've also seen unmanned aircraft interfere, not help, with our lives. This year, pilots have reported seeing unmanned aircraft twice as frequently as they did in 2014, and the number of unmanned aircraft in our airspace continues to grow at astounding rates.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Drone hobby groups like the Academy of Model Aeronautics are trying to do their part. They put out a video backed by the FAA called Know before youe Fly, which features the comedian Jeff Dunham doing a ventriloquist bit with a poppet.

[Jeff Dunham (voice of ventriloquist puppet)]

And you shouldn't fly over vehicles. Oh, why not? What if you crash into the vehicle? Oh, well, make sure you crash into a cheap one and not an expensive one. Yeah, you can hit a Ugold, but not a Ferrari. No, you don't crash into any vehicles.

[Nicholas Thompson]

Okay.

[Jeff Dunham (voice of ventriloquist puppet)]

And also, Bubba J, you can't fly over personal property. What does that mean? You can't fly over somebody's house without their permission. Oh, so I gotta knock on the door and ask them, okay, if I spy on them in their pool? Also, you need to stay clear of real aircraft. Cause it's dangerous. That's right. You could cause a big accident.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

The FAA is trying to get a handle on drones as toys. And last month it announced a new registration process that owners need to follow. We're joined now by Greg McNeil, professor of law and Public Policy at Pepperdine University, who specializes in issues surrounding flying robots. He also is on the FAA advisory rule committee for drone registration, and he's the co founder of AirMap, a drone software startup. Hi, Greg.

[Nicholas Thompson]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Delighted to have you here. So let's start with this. What are the proposed guidelines from the faa, and how will they affect an amateur drone pilot?

[Nicholas Thompson]

Sure. So the Secretary of Transportation at the end of October is issued an order that said that all unmanned aircraft under 55 pounds need to be registered with the federal government, which set in motion a task force of industry representatives and others from various groups. I was on the task force where we sat for three days locked in FAA headquarters trying to hash out exactly what a registration system would look like. It was pretty fascinating because that's a very rapid timeline. It was only about a week and a half after the. After the order was issued that we got together. And the Secretary is hoping to have all this stuff wrapped up before Christmas. The task force recommendations for the process can be summarized in really three simple steps. First, fill out an electronic registration form on the web or through an app. Second, you'll immediately receive an electronic certificate of registration. And you'll also get a personal registration number. And then the third step, take that registration number and. And put it on all of your drones. That's the entire accountability system, subject to some additional details.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Is it your sense that the FAA was nervous about the number of drones being given as Christmas presents?

[Nicholas Thompson]

I think so. I mean, I think more so than the faa. It was the Secretary of Transportation and a need to somehow make sure that those individuals operating them understood that they were operating something that was more than a toy, that it was something that was in the national airspace system where other aircraft are operating.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

And the FAA also has a one sheet iFly safe list of guidelines which, among other things, recommends flying below 400ft, not within five miles of an airport. And it says not to pilot a drone while drunk. Are recreational drones actually dangerous?

[Nicholas Thompson]

I don't believe they're dangerous, although any device can be dangerous when operated in an unsafe way. And so, you know, one of the things that the task force had to look at was which devices should be registered. And what you start to realize is that even something as small as 2 or 3 pounds when it gets up in the air at 400ft becomes rather deadly. And in many ways, these devices are safer than aircraft. They're replacing helicopters flying between buildings by having drones fly between buildings to get the same type of footage that CNN or an artist or a movie maker might want to get. And so it really comes down to how the device is being used. All right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Well, thank you very much, Greg McNeil. It was a pleasure to talk with you.

[Nicholas Thompson]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Wired Senior Correspondent]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

I'm here with our friend Nick Pomgarten. He wrote a piece for the New Yorker magazine a couple of years ago called here's Looking At Should We Worry about the Rise of the Drones? Nick, how are you?

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

I'm well, thanks, Nick.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

So as you think about the skies above over Christmas and after Christmas, does it make you feel good to think about millions of Americans opening drones and sending them out in the air?

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

I can hear it now, the sound of sort of collisions, cartoon collisions all over town. The other thing I can imagine is by New Year's, thousands and thousands of drones stranded in trees, you know, like the way New York or cities have sneakers hanging from trees, these are going to be the new sneakers.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

But I think one of the things that's so interesting about the subject is that there's so much utility, there's so many things drones could do. But the whole prospect is a little eerie for a lot of people.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

Well, you know, I have to allow for the fact that drones are pretty awesome. They are cool. Drones can do so many wonderful things. They're great for inspecting pipelines, great for farm use, great for traffic accidents and traffic jams, great for wildlife monitoring. And now we hear it's great for delivering burritos or sneakers or whatever. That's all well and good, but I have misgivings about any machines that could one day have some kind of intelligence, especially if these machines are in the air. You know, they're basically, we're talking about flying robots. That gives me some pause.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

So one of the things that I've always found disquieting about drones and one of the things that I think has framed the conversation about drones is, of course, the way that we've thought about drones for the last 10 years. So, you know, when I think about the drones coming in the air after Christmas, it's hard to disentangle it from the drones flying over Pakistan. And the. The way we've thought about drones for the last 15 years, they've been these weapons of war. And you see drone footage and you're almost expecting an explosion to come on it.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

Well, that's true. I mean, initially, really, it's a military technology. And the drone boom was a result of our being at war. You know, in a way, this sort of drone boom back home is a swords into plowshares thing. It's sort of the flying robot soldiers are looking for jobs, they're coming home, they're looking for something to do, they're looking for a market. And to some extent, you know, the commercial applications, the way the companies making these drones have pushed the commercial applications is an example of them trying to make a market for themselves. So we do think of even these great little quadcopters that people are getting for Christmas. There's sort of an element of death from above, you know, still attached to that wrapping paper.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Right.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

And so, you know, when I think of these things being everywhere, there's something, you know, the air will be slightly tinged with some kind of futuristic menace.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Earlier this year, the Department of Homeland Security hosted a summit on the dangers of consumer drones being used for terrorism. Should we be worried about that possibility.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

I suppose it's inevitable that an act of terrorism will be committed using a drone. But I think the bigger worry that we have is that an act of terrorism itself is inevitable, regardless of whether it's a drone or an airplane or a train or a box cutter.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

But the thing about a drone is that unlike a box cutter, you don't have to have a man carrying it. They're separate from the individual. So doesn't it open up all kinds of possibilities? Like the same reason they're so useful for us in our war in Pakistan could conceivably be useful for a terrorist in wherever.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

I don't think we should be worried about drones as terrorist tools. I mean, frankly, putting on my tinfoil hat here, I'm more afraid of drones in the hands of the authorities.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Well, that ties into some news that's happened recently in Oklahoma City. There's a guy who's very anti prostitution and so he follows prostitutes. And recently, or I guess it was this summer, followed a prostitute in the john and followed them with a drone. And then the drone flew to sort of a secluded area where the man had parked, flew up to the windshield and filmed them in action. And he took that video and gave it to the police. And now both of them are being prosecuted. What do you think of that?

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

The drone vigilante? I don't feel too good about it. I just don't like the idea of people running around videotaping other people doing things, even if it's against the law.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

But it's also surveillance of people inside a truck in a secluded area where presumably I thought it was quite private. Right.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

I mean, if that were someone having an affair or if it were, if it were someone's enemy that was. You just don't. There's so many scenarios you can think of where that is not an innocent act of drone vigilantism.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

So Amazon recently got a lot of attention. They played a video, came right out after Black Friday, and it showed a guy who ordered a soccer shoe or pair of soccer shoes for his daughter, and they were delivered by drone. And Amazon made a big deal about it as though this is the near future. Now, of course, there are a bunch of technical problems before you can deliver soccer shoes, for example, the drones need to have a place to land. The drones need enough battery power. The drones need to be able to carry stuff. The drones need to be able to not crash into each other. How far away are we from a future where you get something delivered by drone?

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

Nick, I saw an article, I think it was called Dubious Drone. And I think they thought that whole video may have been faked. It was one of those theories because of the way that the sort of angles of the drone weren't right. It looked real to me and it looked like fun.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

I mean, one of the things that I am interested by with drones is the notion that they're gonna make delivery faster, which is a little bit dispiriting because delivery is really good. Amazon has kind of already solved the problem of how to get you what you want really quickly. It's not clear to me that there's a pair of shoes that I really need a day sooner. There's nothing wrong with it, but if that's the revolution, the revolution is kind of boring.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

Yeah, it's strange. I talked to this guy who likened the development of the drone to gunpowder and the computer and all these sort of real game changing things. But if it's really just, you know, getting a. Getting a soccer cleat in half an hour as opposed to 24 hours, you know, I'm not sure that's a game changer.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Looking into the future, what do you think is the first time a drone will be actually be useful in Nick Pomgarten's life?

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

I imagine myself stranded on the side of the road, you know, with a flat tire and some new fangled car I can't figure out. And I'm going to be cursing and kicking and, and feeling miserable and inadequate, and along will come some drone, and it'll just hover right in front of me in some really kind voice say, excuse me, sir, can we help you?

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

Or we'll film you frustrated and feeling inadequate and put it on YouTube automatically.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

Well, maybe both can happen. You can coexist, shame, and help.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

All right, thank you, Nick Baumgarten. It's a pleasure to talk with you.

[Nicholas Paumgarten]

Thank you, nick.

[Nicholas Thompson]

That was newyorker.com editor Nicholas Thompson talking to New Yorker staff writer Nicholas Paumgarten.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global editorial director. I'm Michael Coloury, Wired's Director of consumer Tech and Culture. And I'm Lauren Good.

[Wired Senior Correspondent]

I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Podcast Host (possibly Katie Drummond or Michael Coloury)]

And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics. Right. So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are affecting Washington and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode from prx.