Obama's Legacy

Summary

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Summary of "Obama's Legacy"

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: January 23, 2015
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Ryan Lizza, Rick Hertzberg

Overview

This episode dissects President Barack Obama’s recent State of the Union address, examining his approach to legacy-building in the late stage of his presidency. Host Dorothy Wickenden, along with staff writers Ryan Lizza and Rick Hertzberg, explores how Obama’s renewed liberalism and strong economic messaging signal a shift—both in Democratic Party strategy and in the rhetoric shaping the 2016 presidential race. The conversation covers policy substance, Obama’s political constraints and freedoms, the transformation of American political discourse, and the President’s positioning on key issues including inequality, foreign affairs, and climate change.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Obama’s Assertive Liberalism and Political Context

• Obama’s Tone Shift:
  Obama’s 2015 State of the Union marked a departure from his earlier posture of compromise with Republicans. Instead, he adopted a more self-assured, almost jubilant defense of "big government” and liberal policy achievements.
  • “The verdict is clear. Middle class economics works... as long as politics don’t get in the way.” — Obama (quoted by Ryan Lizza, 01:24)
• Changing Constraints:
  • Obama, now unencumbered by re-election or the realistic chance of new legislation, can act forcefully on executive priorities (climate regulations, international agreements) and shape the Democratic agenda for 2016.
  • “It’s a little bit like the late Clinton era... now he’s come out swinging.” — Rick Hertzberg (04:05)
  • The panel notes the short window Obama had with a filibuster-proof Senate and how his key victories—Obamacare, stimulus—required that fleeting majority.

2. Framing the Economic Debate: Growth, Fairness, and Populism

• Emphasis on Economic Gains & Middle Class:
  • The hosts highlight how Obama uses positive economic data to counter Republican critiques and shift focus from past debates (like Obamacare) to a “post-recession” Democratic platform.
  • “He’s put the Republicans in a box... their agenda basically is repeal Obamaism.” — Ryan Lizza (05:21)
• From Clinton’s “Third Way” to Warren’s Populism:
  • The episode observes how Obama’s address borrowed more from Elizabeth Warren’s populist tone than from Bill Clinton’s centrism—emphasizing income inequality and economic fairness.
  • The panel discusses how Republicans are now forced to echo some of this language, with even Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney making “inequality” part of their critique.

3. Republicans Echoing Economic Fairness

• Republican Message Shift:
  • Insert: Romney clip (06:44):
    • “Under President Obama, the rich have gotten richer, income inequality has gotten worse and there are more people in poverty... His policies have not worked.”
  • The group laments that, while Republicans can use this rhetoric, they offer few programmatic solutions.
  • “The only way they can use it really is rhetorically... They don’t actually have a programmatic answer to the problem.” — Rick Hertzberg (07:12)

4. Wages, Race, and the Democratic Coalition

• The Wage Crisis:
  • Despite broad economic gains, middle-class and working-class white voters have seen stagnant or declining wages—an ongoing crisis which both parties are now compelled to address.
  • “For three decades now, even when we have positive growth... middle class wages have either been declining or stagnant. That is the economic crisis of our time.” — Ryan Lizza (08:02)
• Democratic Erosion with White Working Class:
  • Obama’s legacy—if tied to electing a Democratic successor—depends on reconnecting with these disaffected voters.

5. The Politics of Redistribution

• Changing Perceptions:
  • “One word that’s losing its power to frighten the public is the word redistribution... only if you regard the current distribution... as a natural process.” — Rick Hertzberg (08:58)
  • Polling shows broad support for taxing the super-rich, but segments of the electorate remain resistant to Democratic economic optimism.
  • White blue-collar voters are crucial for the 2016 coalition and are less swayed by improving economic statistics than the broader public.

6. Obama’s Foreign Policy: Selective Emphasis

• Cuba and Legacy Moves:
  • Obama's bold move to re-establish diplomatic ties with Cuba is identified as a “pretty significant legacy... a big deal, and that’s not going to be reversed.” — Ryan Lizza (10:38)
• Iran and Climate as Cornerstones:
  • The President is seen as staking his legacy on achieving a nuclear deal with Iran and finalizing a meaningful international climate agreement.
  • “He is putting a lot of chips on that particular hope, which… is a less than 50/50 proposition.” — Rick Hertzberg (11:43)
• Ambiguity on Military Strategy:
  • Obama’s address largely sidestepped Middle East turmoil and the problem of rising Islamic extremism, prompting disappointment among the hosts wanting clearer policy articulation.
  • “On Islamic extremism, I feel like it’s a lot cloudier... I would have liked to hear something new about that in that speech.” — Ryan Lizza (10:38)

7. Climate Change and Presidential Regret

• Climate as Legacy:
  • Obama’s late but urgent focus on climate is discussed as both an area of accomplishment (EPA regulations, potential global deal) and unrealized potential.
  • “He’s become somewhat, perhaps a little belatedly, worried that 10–15 years from now, his legacy may be seen as the guy who had the big chance... and didn’t do enough.” — Rick Hertzberg (12:27)
  • The panel debates tactical questions such as trading Keystone pipeline approval for larger climate concessions (e.g., a carbon tax or solidified EPA rules), acknowledging the political obstacles.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Obama’s Newfound Confidence:

  • “It was almost joyful, really.” — Rick Hertzberg (03:22)

• On Republicans' New Rhetoric:

  • “The only way they can use it really is rhetorically... They don't actually have a programmatic answer.” — Rick Hertzberg (07:12)

• On the Political Power Shift:

  • “Obama has put Republicans in a box... their agenda basically is repeal Obamaism.” — Ryan Lizza (05:21)

• On the Urgency of Climate Action:

  • “This is the one thing that's unforgivable in my view.” — Dorothy Wickenden (12:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & State of the Union Context: 01:14 – 02:13
• Obama’s Tone & Defiance of Lame Duck Label: 02:13 – 04:05
• Republicans Respond, Rhetoric on Inequality: 06:44 – 07:12
• Economic Reality for Middle Class: 08:02 – 08:58
• Polls & Perception on Taxing the Rich: 09:29 – 10:19
• Foreign Policy – Cuba, Iran, Climate: 10:19 – 13:31
• Keystone & Climate Tactics: 13:31 – 15:11

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Conclusion

This episode offers a deep, nuanced conversation about how President Obama’s tone, priorities, and constraints have changed in the final years of his presidency. The guests agree that, while legislative achievements are largely out of reach, Obama’s legacy will be shaped by his advocacy for middle-class economics, his influence over his party’s future platform, and his final international moves on climate and diplomacy. The panel sees a shift in American political language on inequality and fairness, noting that both parties must now reckon with these themes heading into 2016.

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Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about Politics. It's Thursday, January 22nd. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the.

[Ryan Lizza]

New Yorker, so the verdict is clear. Middle class economics works, expanding opportunity works. And these policies will continue to work as long as politics don't get in the way.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

That was President Obama giving his State of the Union address on Tuesday night. Ryan, Lissa and Hendrick Hertzberg are here today to discuss what it says about Obama's liberalism and how discussions of the poor and middle class are already shaping the 2016 presidential race. So Ryan for six years now, Democrats have been complaining that Obama's too willing to seek compromise with congressional Republicans, he's too reluctant to push his agenda and not forceful enough in defending his achievements. That was not true on Tuesday night. But why so late? And what can he achieve?

[Ryan Lizza]

At this point, legislation coming out of Congress probably won't be very we shouldn't expect much. But just like he did last year, there's still quite a bit he can do on his own, starting with the climate Regulations that are still working their way through the system and a big climate, international climate agreement, if he can get one, that would be a huge part of his legacy and something he can do without Congress. On the tax proposals, on the sort of big middle class proposals that were the core of the speech, most of that, you know, almost all of that needs to be done legislatively. And so I think the way to look at that stuff is more as the Democratic Party's new post recession agenda that he wants to make sure Hillary Clinton and anyone else that runs at least adopts a version of and that that's more for future oriented, you know, even beyond the next two years, beyond his presidency.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rick, the speech was gleeful, even maybe a little smug with good reason given, you know, all the indicators that are trending his way. The economy is strong, employment numbers are up, fuel prices are down, et cetera. Obamacare wasn't Armageddon. But were you struck by how startling his defense of big government was given how much on the defensive he's been throughout his presidency?

[Rick Hertzberg]

Well, I was certainly relieved and happy to hear him talk the way he did. And I think a lot of Democrats felt the same way. I mean, it was almost joyful, really.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

There were so few Democrats in Congress though.

[Rick Hertzberg]

Yeah, but they yelled and screamed and stood up and clapped. Unlike most State of the Union addresses, this one was not about the next legislative session. The next legislative session will not produce anything of note. He has accepted that and run with it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

It raises interesting questions about the lame duck, the whole conventional wisdom about lame duck presidents. He is defying that, at least judging from how he was speaking. So talk a little bit about that. What constraints have been lifted on him.

[Rick Hertzberg]

It's a little bit like the late Clinton era in that sense, in that he's taken all the punches and he's been rocked back into his own corner and now he's come out swinging. He only had a real majority of a filibuster proof majority for about four months of his entire two terms. And that's when he got the big things done. The things that have paid off in the statistics, those very impressive statistics that he recited at the beginning of the speech talking about Obamacare and the stimulus essentially. And those two things were a long time in producing results, but they did produce results. And he listed those results at the beginning of his speech. And even I, who consider myself reasonably well informed was impressed by those statistics. He's turning the conversation from growth to, to fairness. And that seems to have taken even the Republicans reacting to the speech are adopting that framework for the next stage of discussion.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Yes, and that's one of the most fascinating after effects of the speech. And I want to talk about that in a second. Ryan. The speech sounded almost more like the populism of Elizabeth Warren than like the third way pursued by Bill Clinton in the 90s.

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think Rick is right about how the improving economy is now the biggest driver of American politics, as you know, as it usually is. And the speech was notable for the fact that that's what Obama was keying off of. He was keying off of the last few months of positive economic data. He ignored the midterm results and decided to point out that no, that was not, that's not the biggest change in American politics right now. The biggest change is that the economy is improving. I was right, you were wrong is what he was saying to Republicans. I was right that Obamacare would not destroy the economy. I was right that my stimulus and other economic policies would not destroy the economy. And by the way, I'm now putting those debates into the past. You guys can still talk about them, but I'm now laying out a sort of post recession new agenda. And frankly, he's put the Republicans in a box. I think the Republicans are really kind of screwed right now in politics because they are left withtheir agenda basically is repeal Obamaism.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

But as Rick was just saying and Rick, I want to ask you to elaborate a little bit. Yes, he's got them in a box and now they have to turn around and adopt some of the language themselves if they want to get elected in 2016. So they can't keep invoking austerity anymore because the economy's doing really quite well this week. Both Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney are trying to turn the tables on Obama. So let's just listen for a second to what Romney was saying.

[Ryan Lizza]

Under President Obama, the rich have gotten richer, income inequality has gotten worse and there are more people in poverty in America than ever before. His policies have not worked. Their liberal policies are good every four years for a campaign, but they don't get the job done.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So Rick, I think that's literally true that actually the poor have gotten poorer under Obama for long term reasons, we all understand. But talk a little bit about that and how they're going to try to use this theme effectively.

[Rick Hertzberg]

The only way they can use it really is rhetorically, is by repeating what Romney said over and over again because they don't actually have a programmatic answer to the problem. Obama could have gone a little stronger on this actually in the speech, on the grotesque mal distribution of wealth in the country. The Republicans can depend a lot on public ignorance, on people who think that the deficit is still the big problem. And the President and the Democratic Party can take a different view, one that's actually more logical, which potentially is persuasive to some decisive slice of the electorate. Part of Obama's legacy, for it to be what he wants it to be, has to include a democratic victory in 2016.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

What about that, Ryan?

[Ryan Lizza]

No, I agree. And for obvious reasons, Obama was, there was a lot of bragging in that speech and there was a lot of emphasis on the good economic, economic news. Not as much emphasis on the sort of the underside of this economy, which is for three decades now, even when we have positive growth and positive productivity and low unemployment, middle class wages have either been declining or stagnant. And that is the economic crisis of our time, especially now that we're beyond the immediate crisis of the Great Recession. I think it's good news that the Republicans like Romney and Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio agree on this for once. Both parties sort of agree on what the problem is. And you finally have some Republicans saying, wait a second, growth and wages have sometime in the 70s or early 80s stopped going up together. You could have a fruitful debate between the two parties about what to do about that.

[Rick Hertzberg]

Now, one word that's losing its power to frighten the public is the word redistribution. Yes, that's always been the boogeyman that the Republicans have raised. And they have managed somehow to persuade a large swath of the public that redistribution is bad. And maybe redistribution is bad in some abstract sense, but only if you regard the current distribution of wealth and income as a natural process unrelated to the tax system and the way our economy is structured.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And is it not true, Ryan, that a vast majority of the American public believes that the super rich should be taxed more?

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah, look, and this has been true for years now with the polling shows that the middle class has no problem with taxing the super rich. Right. The interesting thing about what's going on is the group that Obama and Democrats generally have really sort of seen erosion in the Obama years is the same as the group that's really been hit hardest by this sort of stagnant wage crisis. And that is basically white blue collar workers. And that's really the group that has turned against Obama a lot in the last few years and also is the one, the group that is in the polling is not showing that they have a positive view of the new economic news. And that's the group that Hillary Clinton, you know, frankly, Democrats and Republicans will really be fighting over in this next election.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And we haven't Ryan talked at all about foreign policy, and Obama glided almost entirely past it in his speech, you know, wisely for the most part. But it was a speech about his legacy, so how should he be spinning his foreign policy failures and achievements? There's Syria and then there's Cuba, just to take two examples.

[Ryan Lizza]

Well, I mean, on Cuba, I think if he re establishes diplomatic ties, which I don't think Republicans can stop him from doing that. So that's a pretty significant legacy. To be the first president to open an embassy in Cuba and receive an ambassador from Cuba, that's a big deal, and that's not going to be reversed. Considering what's going on in the world and considering how confusing events are in the Middle east and the rise of Islamic extremism that we're seeing, I was a little disappointed that the speech didn't sort of address that. Obama has a theory about what's going on in the economy and he has a plan, even if it, even if it doesn't have a great chance of being implemented. On Islamic extremism, I feel like it's a lot cloudier, and I feel like what his policy is with respect to Iraq and Syria and the threat from violent Islam is pretty cloudy. And, you know, I don't know, Rick, if you thought the same thing, but I would have liked to hear something new about that in that speech or understand where he's going in the next two years.

[Rick Hertzberg]

Yeah, I would have, too. But I can understand how he and his speechwriters came to the balance that they struck in the foreign policy section of the speech. The big focus of it really was Iran more than anything else. And he is putting a lot of chips on that particular hope, which evenwhich he admitted in the speech is a less than 50, 50 proposition.

[Ryan Lizza]

I mean, on Iran, I think the fear isand this happened at the end of the Clinton administration, happened at the end of the Bush administration. The fear is that as the clock runs out on the Obama administration, that he wants a deal. Too bad. I think the two big international accomplishments Obama wants, the two biggest is this deal with Iran and an international climate agreement. I think that's what he thinks is actually achievable in the next two years.

[Rick Hertzberg]

And on climate, I think he's become somewhat, perhaps a little belatedly worried that 10 years from now 15 years from now, his legacy may be seen as the guy who had the big chance to do something about the catastrophes that are now engulfing the world and didn't do enough.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Yeah, it was very belated and Ryan's written really well on this in the past. This is the one thing that's unforgivable in my view.

[Ryan Lizza]

I think even on Keystone, which he's never really been that enthusiastic about, there's some evidence that maybe he might not approve that project after all. His view has always been that that would be more of a symbolic thing. It would be more of a way of saying maybe it's true that Keystone won't dramatically increase CO2 emissions, but it sends a signal to the world that these aren't the kind of big, large scale infrastructure projects that the US Wants to push anymore, that we want to, you know, we do want to decarbonize the economy. And so, you know, it's sort of a symbolic thing. That was always the argument from the environmentalists. Obama, it's been widely reported that he never really bought that, but I think he's edged closer to that view over the last year.

[Rick Hertzberg]

Yeah, and the temptation is going to be very, very severe to trade the pipeline for other infrastructure projects. That's going to be very hard for him to resist that temptation. Even though these other infrastructure projects, highways and rail and all the rest, would create a lot more jobs on their merits, they deserve to be enacted.

[Ryan Lizza]

I wrote a piece for our website saying he should trade it away and that this is the, you know, since he doesn't really care about Keystone anyway and it's not that big a deal in terms of jobs or climate. And I think both of those statements are defensible, that he might as well see if there's any chance at all. The likelihood is very low. See if there's any chance at all that Republicans would trade it for some serious either infrastructure or environmental priority. What if you could trade Keystone for a very modest carbon tax, that would be a good deal. If you could trade Keystone for setting in stone Obama's EPA climate regulations, that would be a good deal. I think it's really, really unlikely that Republicans would go for anything like that. But since Obama doesn't care that much about Keystone anyway, why not see if there's something you can get for it?

[Rick Hertzberg]

If it were something like that, it would be a good deal. If it were something like a carbon fee, as I'm sure it would be called, that would be great.

[Ryan Lizza]

Now the other part of this is, and maybe the White House truly believes this. They say, no, no, you can't trade this away. It's more complicated than that. This is a technical process. This is something that the White House decides. It's a State Department issue. You can't throw that process away and put this into legislative horse trading. It's just a sort of. This is an executive decision here, and we're not going to trade that away. That's just a sort of separation of powers principle. That's what they always argue.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Okay, thank you both very much.

[Ryan Lizza]

Thanks, Dorothy.

[Rick Hertzberg]

Thank you, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Ryan, Lissa and Hendrick Hertzberg are staff writers for the magazine. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. This podcast is produced by Jill Dubeuf and Alex baron. For new yorker.com I'm Dorothy Wickenden. You can subscribe to this podcast and other free New Yorker podcasts in the iTunes store. The weekly audio edition of the magazine is [e-mail] New Yorker subscribers can access the digital edition for tablets and smartphones at no extra charge from the App Store or from Google Play. I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial director.

[Ryan Lizza]

I'm Michael Kollory, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week we get together to.

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

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[Ryan Lizza]

Right. So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

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[Ryan Lizza]

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