Podcast Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Philip Gourevitch and Dexter Filkins on Obama’s National-Security Team
Date: June 7, 2013
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guests: Philip Gourevitch, Dexter Filkins (Staff Writers, The New Yorker)

Overview

This episode dives into President Obama's shifting national-security team amidst deepening challenges in Syria, particularly as the Assad regime gains ground with help from Hezbollah and its Iranian backers. Staff writers Philip Gourevitch and Dexter Filkins join host Dorothy Wickenden to examine American policy dilemmas, the regional consequences of the Syrian conflict, and what new appointments—Susan Rice as National Security Adviser and Samantha Power as UN Ambassador—mean for the administration’s approach, especially as the civil war threatens to destabilize the broader Middle East.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Current State of the Syrian Civil War

• Hezbollah’s Critical Involvement
  • Dexter Filkins details the decisive battle for Kusair, a Syrian border town, explaining why Hezbollah intervened so forcefully:

    "In order for the big supply line, which basically starts in Iran and goes to Damascus and then goes into Lebanon, where Hezbollah is, in order for that axis to kind of keep working, they had to take Kusair at any cost."
    — Dexter Filkins [02:15]

• Filkins stresses that Hezbollah’s survival is now intertwined with Assad’s, and this marks a new phase, with Hezbollah “all in.”
• Philip Gourevitch contextualizes Hezbollah as an Iranian proxy with an avowed anti-Israel agenda. [03:20]

2. U.S. Diplomacy and the “Late” Search for Negotiations

• Discussion of Secretary of State John Kerry’s remark that the U.S. was late to push for a political settlement. Gourevitch asserts Assad never intended to leave and always saw the war as existential:

  "Assad ... heard Obama say, assad must go ... and he realized nothing was going to happen that was going to be absolutely forceful."
  — Philip Gourevitch [03:38]

• Gourevitch and Filkins agree that Russia is playing a duplicitous game at international talks, using negotiations to mask a lack of real progress towards a settlement.

  "It's kind of like, you know, one way to keep fighting is to keep talking."
  — Philip Gourevitch [04:57]

3. Obama’s Options in Syria: The “Then What?” Problem

• Filkins describes the administration’s central quandary:

  "We can take down the Assad regime, probably ... But then what? It’s the then what that they can't really get around. Nobody can answer that question right now."
  — Dexter Filkins [06:16]

• The growth of jihadist and Al Qaeda-affiliated groups among the rebels (e.g., Al Nusra Front) makes U.S. intervention more perilous.
• The complexity of the opposition and risks of weapons falling into extremist hands feeds U.S. reluctance. [05:51]

4. Escalating Sectarian Divide Across the Region

• Filkins paints a bleak picture of a widening Sunni-Shiite conflict from Iran through Iraq and Syria into Lebanon, describing a “terrifying prospect” of regional conflagration:

  "You really have the possibility of a Sunni Shiite conflict stretching ... all the way to the Mediterranean."
  — Dexter Filkins [07:22]

• Gourevitch echoes the fear that the unraveling could not have been easily prevented by outside actors. [08:19]

5. Humanitarian Toll and U.S. Policy Debates

• The staggering casualties and massacres challenge America’s ideals versus the reality of action:

  "Are we allowing the frustration of limited military options to ... SAP our energy for looking for every other kind of option?"
  — Philip Gourevitch [09:05]

• Filkins highlights the domestic political calculus: U.S. leaders face little political reward for intervening (citing lack of backlash over inaction in Rwanda or credit for Libya).

  "It’s kind of lose, lose if you're the president and you're looking at these things."
  — Dexter Filkins [10:26]

6. Obama’s National-Security Team Revamp: Rice and Power

• Susan Rice and Samantha Power, both advocates of humanitarian intervention, are joining pivotal security roles. Filkins notes:

  "You're definitely going to have a different conversation going on inside the White House ... But ... it's the president's foreign policy ... the president does not want to involve himself in Syria."
  — Dexter Filkins [11:05]

• Even with confirmed use of chemical weapons (the “red line”), Obama’s caution persists because intervention risks unleashing further chaos or chemical weapons proliferation.

  "The current situation is better to have this murderous, nearly genocidal regime in power than to have a power vacuum in chaos in Syria."
  — Dexter Filkins [12:32]

7. Profiles of Rice and Power

• Rice’s past inaction on Rwanda haunts her, but Gourevitch argues she remains a political realist despite interventionist leanings ascribed to her and Power.

  "Susan Rice has said that she's been haunted by America's very clear decision not to act."
  — Philip Gourevitch [14:14]

• Power’s activism on Darfur and her shift from journalist to policymaker could shape her approach at the UN. Gourevitch expresses curiosity about how her advocacy will translate to action:

  "We will see as she emerges as a spokesperson for the administration, how her particular tone and style ... merges with what it's like to be actually exercising power and representing the United States."
  — Philip Gourevitch [15:39]

8. Final Thoughts on Long-term Regional Risks

• Filkins concludes with the administration’s overriding concern:

  "The longer that the war in Syria goes on, the more likely it is that it spreads ... the waves are just coming off the war in Syria. ... That fear ... is going to weigh on the administration to do something about it."
  — Dexter Filkins [16:50]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:15 — Episode introduction, context
• 02:04 — How the battle for Kusair changed the war/Hezbollah’s critical role
• 03:38 — Assad’s existential calculus and lack of exit strategy
• 04:27 — Realpolitik at international Syria talks
• 05:51 — Risk calculus for U.S. arms to rebels, the "then what" dilemma
• 07:22 — Rising sectarian war from Iran/Iraq through Syria/Lebanon
• 08:51 — American humanitarian ideals vs. limits of intervention
• 10:02 — Political risks of intervention in U.S. foreign policy calculus
• 11:05 — The meaning of Susan Rice and Samantha Power’s promotions
• 12:32 — The chemical weapons “red line” and Obama’s choices
• 14:14 — Background and influence: Susan Rice and Rwanda, Samantha Power’s advocacy
• 16:50 — The risk of the Syrian war spilling over the region

Notable Quotes

• "In order for the big supply line, which basically starts in Iran ... to keep working, they had to take Kusair at any cost."
  — Dexter Filkins [02:15]

• "Assad must go ... he realized nothing was going to happen that was going to be absolutely forceful."
  — Philip Gourevitch [03:38]

• "We can take down the Assad regime, probably ... But then what? It’s the then what that they can't really get around."
  — Dexter Filkins [06:16]

• "You really have the possibility of a Sunni Shiite conflict stretching ... all the way to the Mediterranean."
  — Dexter Filkins [07:22]

• "Are we allowing the frustration of limited military options to ... SAP our energy for looking for every other kind of option?"
  — Philip Gourevitch [09:05]

• "It’s kind of lose, lose if you're the president and you're looking at these things."
  — Dexter Filkins [10:26]

• "You're definitely going to have a different conversation going on inside the White House ... but ... the president does not want to involve himself in Syria."
  — Dexter Filkins [11:05]

• "Susan Rice has said that she's been haunted by America's very clear decision not to act."
  — Philip Gourevitch [14:14]

• "We will see as she emerges as a spokesperson for the administration, how her particular tone and style ... merges with what it's like to be actually exercising power."
  — Philip Gourevitch [15:39]

• "The longer that the war in Syria goes on, the more likely it is that it spreads ... That fear ... is going to weigh on the administration to do something about it."
  — Dexter Filkins [16:50]

Tone and Concluding Impressions

The conversation is marked by candor and caution, reflecting both the moral agony and realpolitik of U.S. deliberations, and skepticism about whether new personnel will alter the fundamental trajectory of a policy mired in dilemmas. There is respect for humanitarian ideals, but a sobering recognition of complexity, limited leverage, and unintended consequences.