The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Philip Roth in the #MeToo Era

Date: July 23, 2018
Host: David Remnick (with Judith Thurman, Claudia Roth Pierpont, Lisa Halliday, Dorothy Wickenden)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the literary legacy and personal complexity of Philip Roth—one of America’s preeminent novelists—through the perspectives of three women who knew him intimately: writers Judith Thurman, Claudia Roth Pierpont, and Lisa Halliday. In the wake of Roth’s 2018 death, the conversation turns to how his work is scrutinized in light of the #MeToo movement, especially regarding charges of misogyny and the depiction of women. The panel reflects on his writing, the evolution of critical opinion about his novels, his anxieties about biography, and his final days.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Remembering Philip Roth

• Judith Thurman opens the discussion by framing Roth as an audacious and original voice in American fiction, noting that posthumous discussion must reckon with criticism of how he wrote about women.
  "Almost all critics praised him...but about the way he wrote about women. This was a criticism he often had to answer to in his lifetime, and in the era of MeToo, even some of the material from the distant past, like Portnoy's Complaint, was now being re-evaluated." (02:47)

Early Connections & Roth’s Relationship to Biography

• Claudia Roth Pierpont recounts how Roth first reached out to her after reading her biography of Isaac Dinesen, establishing himself as a writer who, contrary to popular belief, cared deeply about fellow writers.
  "It was a fan letter from Philip Roth...I thought it was my crazy friend Max imitating Philip Roth." (03:46)
• Roth deeply feared the idea of biography, with Claudia calling biography, along with death, one of two things he feared most.
  "He said there are two things to fear in life, death and biography." – Dorothy Wickenden (04:57)

Navigating Roth’s Persona and Fame

• Lisa Halliday reflects on Roth’s defensiveness about his personal life and how people projected narratives onto him, seeing every interaction as filled with anecdotal weight.
  "I think he just became used to people taking away impressions that surprised him." (05:32)

• Halliday’s own fiction, partly based on her relationship with Roth, balanced honoring him while departing from strict autobiography.
  "I really did want to share with the reader some of what I loved about Philip, what I loved most about him. But all of that said, it is a novel. It's not a faithful account of our own story." (06:39)

Generational Perspectives & First Encounters

• Halliday first heard Roth’s name in college from her Jewish boyfriend’s mother, who recommended Portnoy’s Complaint. This anecdote highlights how Roth’s reputation filtered through various generational and gendered perspectives.
  "The very first time I heard Philip's name was not until I was in college and my Jewish boyfriend's mother told me that I had to read Portnoy's Complaint." (07:48)

• On women's reaction to reading Portnoy’s Complaint:
  "Reading Portnoy as a young woman...scared the hell out of her. Meaning this is what men think. This is what's running through their mind all the time." – Judith Thurman (08:05)

The Myth and Impact of ‘Portnoy’s Complaint’

• Roth regretted Portnoy’s Complaint due to its making him a public joke and its effect on his privacy.
  "He deeply regretted Portnoy. We talked about it a lot. It made him into a joke on late night television...Completely lost his privacy." – Claudia Roth Pierpont (10:06)

• Roth attempted amends through later works like "The Plot Against America," transforming aspects seen as flaws into virtues under different historical circumstances.
  "He creates a situation to elevate them while not changing who they were at all." – Dorothy Wickenden (09:59)

• Roth admired Flaubert’s principle:
  "The task at hand is not to change humanity, but to know it. You could apply that to every book of Philip's." – Lisa Halliday (10:38)

The #MeToo Lens and Critique of Misogyny

• The panel addresses the major critique leveled at Roth: he is misogynistic in his depiction of female characters.

  • Vivian Gornick once wrote: "For Philip Roth, women are monstrous." – Judith Thurman referencing Harper's (11:30)

• Dorothy Wickenden counters that Roth’s work contains many complex and compelling female characters, even if rarely protagonists, and that his narrative "lighthouse" necessarily draws from his own point of view.
  "I think there are as many fascinating and interesting female characters in his work as in anybody's work. They may not be the person who is presenting the story, but they are taken in and they are alive." (12:03)

• Claudia Roth Pierpont distinguishes between sexual voraciousness and misogyny, noting critics’ confusion of lust with woman-hating. "It's a confusion of lust with misogyny. There's a certain kind of rampaging, voracious sexual appetite...that's not misogyny." (13:25)

• Lisa Halliday expresses puzzlement at the misogyny label, emphasizing Roth’s awe—and even fear—of women rather than hate. "Philip was in awe of so many women, and I think that comes through in the books as well." (14:17)

• Analogy to earlier Jewish criticism: Roth’s willingness to portray flawed characters, whether Jewish or female, often made him a target for accusations that he was arming the enemy or being hateful, but it stemmed from his fidelity to literary truth. "It wouldn't be literature to present a world of perfect Jews with no character...He was writing a book about people, and people have flaws and his women have flaws." – Dorothy Wickenden (15:00)

Roth’s Prose and Political Evolution

• Roth compared himself to Updike:
  "I don't have the gush of prose, which he felt Updike absolutely did. I have the gush of invention, dialogue, event, but not of prose." – Judith Thurman (16:19)

• His literary achievement is described as a range and continual reinvention over decades, moving from intimate work to politically infused novels. "His achievement? Book after book after book. In my mind, we haven't had anybody like that." – Dorothy Wickenden (16:50)

Disillusionment and America

• Roth died deeply disillusioned by contemporary America, particularly the rise of Donald Trump, the degradation of public language, and the prevalence of "Orwellian newspeak." "He said he had never been more terrified in his entire life...The degradation of language that Donald Trump represents was one of the most personally excruciating aspects." – Claudia Roth Pierpont (17:25)

Reflections on Death, Vitality, and Legacy

• Roth's obsession with mortality played out in his fiction and personal life.
  "Death is all through these books...so many graveyard scenes. It's much more than in Shakespeare." – Judith Thurman (19:12)

• At the end of his life, Roth was not fearful but resolute about death.

  • He told Lisa Halliday he planned to live as long as John Adams, and she notes:
    "I'm a little angry with him for not keeping that promise." (19:12)

• Roth "pulled the plug on himself," equating the process of dying to his lifelong discipline as a writer. "He said, I want to live or I want to die, but I'm not going to stay in the middle...He saw dying as the same kind of work that he had saw writing." – Claudia Roth Pierpont (20:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There are two things to fear in life, death and biography."
  – Roth (via Dorothy Wickenden, 04:57)

• "The task at hand is not to change humanity, but to know it."
  – Flaubert, quoted by Roth (via Lisa Halliday, 10:38)

• "It's a confusion of lust with misogyny."
  – Claudia Roth Pierpont (13:25)

• "He said he had never been more terrified in his entire life...the degradation of language that Donald Trump represents was one of the most personally excruciating aspects."
  – Claudia Roth Pierpont (17:25)

• "He saw dying as the same kind of work that he had saw writing...I have work to do. And by that he meant, I have the work of dying."
  – Claudia Roth Pierpont (20:24)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:47] Judith Thurman introduces the topic: Roth’s praise and criticisms.
• [03:46] Claudia Roth Pierpont tells how Roth wrote her a fan letter.
• [04:57] Roth’s fear of biography (“two things to fear in life, death and biography”).
• [06:39] Lisa Halliday discusses turning her relationship with Roth into fiction.
• [07:48] Halliday describes first hearing about Roth and Portnoy’s Complaint.
• [10:06] Claudia Roth Pierpont on Roth’s regret over Portnoy’s Complaint.
• [11:30] Judith Thurman on the enduring critique of misogyny in Roth’s work.
• [13:25] Claudia Roth Pierpont unpacks the confusion between lust and misogyny.
• [17:25] Claudia Roth Pierpont on Roth’s terror at the Trump era.
• [19:12] Reflections on mortality and Roth’s relationship with death.
• [20:24] Roth’s end-of-life decisions and philosophy.

Summary

This episode provides a nuanced exploration of Philip Roth: his complexity, the controversial elements of his writing, the grudges and regrets that lingered through his career, and the ways his life and work persistently intersected with American questions about gender, identity, and mortality. The insight, candor, and affection the panelists bring result in a portrait that is at once critical and affectionate, highlighting Roth’s immense literary gifts as well as the vexing, and still unresolved, cultural conversations he continues to spark.