The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Race Relations in America
Date: May 28, 2015
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guests: Jelani Cobb (Staff Writer, The New Yorker), John Cassidy (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the ongoing struggle with race relations in the United States, particularly focusing on disproportionate police violence against African Americans. The hosts and guests discuss high-profile police killings and acquittals, the efficacy of federal reform efforts (including Department of Justice investigations and consent decrees), the challenges of structural racism, municipal funding practices, and the political dynamics influencing real change. The conversation is timely, sparked by the acquittal of a Cleveland officer in the fatal shooting of two unarmed black individuals and recent federal action addressing police abuses.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Police Acquittals and Systemic Problems

(Starts ~02:20)

• Case in Cleveland: Officer Michael Brilo acquitted after firing 15 times through a windshield at unarmed victims.
  • Jelani Cobb situates Cleveland's case in a broader pattern, comparing it to the acquittal of Chicago officer Dante Servin (Rekia Boyd shooting), highlighting a “national hesitance to second guess decisions that police make in what seems to be the heat of the moment.” (Jelani Cobb, 03:13)
  • Lack of accountability is underscored—if officers face no consequences, what incentive is there for systemic change?

2. Department of Justice Consent Decrees and Police Reform

(Starts ~03:49)

• Consent Decree in Cleveland: Includes measures like banning shooting at vehicles, pistol-whipping, and shooting fleeing suspects, and protocols on use of force and internal review.
  • Jelani Cobb is skeptical: “It’s difficult to imagine there’s going to be substantial change if the outcome in cases like this is to say that officers have not done anything wrong.” (Jelani Cobb, 04:06)
• Enforcement and Impact:
  • John Cassidy notes many reforms are common sense and overdue; standardization is important, but true progress depends on “the cops on the street... unless they think they're going to pay a big price for using these tactics, will probably just carry on using them.” (John Cassidy, 06:35)
  • Jelani Cobb references historic disregard for previous reforms in places like New York (chokehold bans) and the lack of consequences when such protocols are violated (Eric Garner case). (Jelani Cobb, 05:45)

3. Racial Demographics of Police Forces & Deeper Institutional Issues

(Starts ~06:42)

• Ferguson's majority-black population and mostly white police force is contrasted with cities like Baltimore (with black leadership) but similar issues.
  • “I don’t think simply the racial background of the officer... conclusively resolves the problem.” (Jelani Cobb, 06:59)
• The economic incentive behind policing is discussed: municipal reliance on fines and minor violations as revenue, disproportionately affecting black communities.

4. The Use of Fines, "Taxation by Policing," and Public Distrust

(Starts ~07:59)

• Reference to Radley Balko’s reporting on St. Louis County: rampant fining for minor offenses to support city budgets, creating cycles of jail and debt for poor, black residents.
  • Jelani Cobb: “I had a conversation with a police officer who said... citations he issues are being used mainly for fundraising purposes. And this generates a good deal of public contempt for him.” (Jelani Cobb, 08:31)

5. DOJ Investigations: Real Reform or Political Cover?

(Starts ~10:16)

• Some argue DOJ investigations offer political cover—cities look compliant, but local prosecutors rarely charge officers.
  • “Why don’t the grand jury indict these officers?... My feeling is you need political leadership at the local level.” (John Cassidy, 10:33)
  • True accountability is difficult because the relationship between prosecutors and police presents conflicts of interest.
    • Jelani Cobb suggests independent, third-party prosecutors for police misconduct cases. (12:46)

6. Loretta Lynch as Attorney General: A Tightrope Walk

(Starts ~11:18)

• Newly appointed Loretta Lynch seen as more sympathetic to law enforcement than predecessor Eric Holder, giving her potential moral authority for reform.
  • “She is walking this tightrope and she's a federal appointee... her difficulties are most illustrative of the much bigger and much more intense problems that people on the local municipal level would face.” (Jelani Cobb, 12:46)

7. Presidential Leadership and Limits

(Starts ~13:35)

• Discussion of Obama’s ability to enact change—many issues must be addressed locally, though federal investigations and prioritization matter.
  • “The great difficulty with assessing President Obama is recognizing what he could do versus the context in which he's operating.” (Jelani Cobb, 14:00)

8. Political Implications for 2016 Election

(Starts ~14:46)

• Democrats like Hillary Clinton are forceful on criminal justice reform, calling for an end to mass incarceration, while Republicans are largely silent or cost-driven in prison-release policies.
  • “It is a very tricky issue politically... There's always the temptation if you're a Republican, to sort of play the law and order card.” (John Cassidy, 15:29)
  • Jelani Cobb notes political risk: “No person running for higher office really looks at this and says, yeah, I want to jump in and weigh in on this issue.” (Jelani Cobb, 17:12)
• Clinton is taking a strong early stance, perhaps in response to pressures from the Democratic Party’s progressive wing.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s a national hesitance to second guess decisions that police make in what seems to be the heat of the moment.”
  — Jelani Cobb, 03:13

• “It’s difficult to imagine there’s going to be substantial change if the outcome in cases like this is to say that officers have not done anything wrong.”
  — Jelani Cobb, 04:06

• “The cops on the street, unless they think they're going to pay a big price for using these tactics, will probably just carry on using them.”
  — John Cassidy, 06:35

• “I don’t think simply the racial background of the officer... conclusively resolves the problem.”
  — Jelani Cobb, 06:59

• “The public never sees the person who sent me out here to raise money in this way. And they never see the people who say we don't want to pay taxes for anything. They only see me.”
  — Jelani Cobb, relaying police officer’s perspective, 08:31

• “My feeling is you need political leadership at the local level. We can rely on Eric Holder or Loretta Lynch... but I think it’s got to be a local initiative.”
  — John Cassidy, 10:33

• “No person running for higher office really looks at this and says, yeah, I want to jump in and weigh in on this issue.”
  — Jelani Cobb, 17:12

Important Timestamps

• 02:20 — Introduction of Cleveland police case and broader context
• 03:13 — National hesitance to scrutinize police actions (Jelani Cobb)
• 04:06 — Skepticism about reform without consequences (Jelani Cobb)
• 05:45 — New York’s history of broken police promises (Jelani Cobb)
• 06:59 — Police demographics and institutional issues (Jelani Cobb)
• 08:31 — Policing as a revenue generator; officer’s viewpoint (Jelani Cobb)
• 10:33 — DOJ investigations as political cover, need for local reform (John Cassidy)
• 12:46 — Loretta Lynch’s position, independent prosecutors (Jelani Cobb)
• 14:00 — Obama’s limitations on police reform (Jelani Cobb)
• 15:29 — Political dynamics, party differences on justice reform (John Cassidy)
• 17:12 — Candidates’ reluctance to address police issues (Jelani Cobb)
• 18:47 — Hillary Clinton’s position and the influence of party dynamics (Jelani Cobb)

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, analytical, and sober, with undercurrents of skepticism regarding institutional promises of change. The speakers balance critique with historical context and political realism, often referencing previous events and research to support their points.

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced look at the recurrence of police brutality cases, the challenges to reforming entrenched institutional practices, and the complex intersection of local, federal, and political influences in addressing America's fraught race relations. The clear consensus among participants is that systemic and sustainable change must be driven at both the federal and, crucially, the local level—with accountability, enforcement, and political courage at the forefront.