Rebecca Solnit on Harvey Weinstein and the Lies that Powerful Men Tell

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Rebecca Solnit on Harvey Weinstein and the Lies that Powerful Men Tell
Date: February 27, 2020
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Rebecca Solnit

---

Overview

This episode features Dorothy Wickenden, Executive Editor of The New Yorker, in conversation with noted author and activist Rebecca Solnit. The discussion centers on the conviction of Harvey Weinstein, the broader implications for the #MeToo movement, and how lies—especially those told by powerful men—serve to maintain structures of power and silence victims. Solnit also examines why truth struggles to prevail against lies, expanding the scope beyond sexual violence to encompass politics and society at large.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Harvey Weinstein's Conviction and Its Significance

• Watershed vs. Warning:
  • Solnit questions labeling the verdict a watershed moment; instead, she sees it as a warning to other men that the era of impunity may be over, emphasizing the importance of credibility and consequence for women's voices.
  • Quote:
    • "I'm not sure it's a watershed because it stops one man, not all men. But the warning may stop a lot of other men." — Rebecca Solnit [03:21]
• Barriers to Justice:
  • Solnit highlights the overwhelming odds against conviction in sexual assault cases, particularly when the accused is wealthy and well-connected.
  • The women's lack of power and credible options is highlighted, and how this imbalance allowed Weinstein’s abuses to remain hidden for decades, until investigative journalism changed the narrative.

2. Challenges Faced by Victims and the Legal System

• Defense Strategies and Social Perceptions:
  • Discussion of Weinstein’s defense attorney, Donna Rotunno, who blamed accusers and minimized Weinstein’s capacity to affect careers.
  • Quote (Rotunno):
    • "Women have to start owning those choices...and they either have to say, I'm not going to do these things to attempt to get a job or I'm going to own my choice for making that decision." [02:20]
• Complexity of Victim Responses:
  • Solnit stresses the need for greater understanding about victim behavior and why typical "textbook" reactions (immediate reporting, etc.) are rare. She critiques the myth of equal power and blames cultures that uphold male credibility over that of women.
  • The legal system's slow evolution in recognizing these complexities is acknowledged.

3. Silencing & Systemic Power Imbalances

• Women Outside the Spotlight:
  • Wickenden brings up recent New Yorker reporting about lesser-known women facing abuse, underscoring that the issue isn’t restricted to the wealthy or famous.
• Selective Application of Laws:
  • Discussion of how self-defense laws like “Stand Your Ground” are unevenly enforced, disadvantaging women and people of color.
  • Quote:
    • "We have all this stuff on paper that says we're all equal. And people who don't want to understand how unequal we are blame the victims..." — Rebecca Solnit [07:42]
• Historical Devaluation of Women’s Testimony:
  • Solnit references the long-standing societal presumption that men are more reliable witnesses than women, tracing this back “even to the Old Testament.”

4. The #MeToo Movement and Cultural Shifts

• Gradual Change, Not Sudden Shift:
  • Solnit asserts that #MeToo was the culmination of decades of feminist activism that placed women (and feminist men) in positions of power where they could make a difference.
• Changing Who Gets Believed:
  • Society's evolving willingness to listen to women is emphasized as a key driver in achieving justice.
• Quote:
  • "The people who decided who we're going to listen to and who we're going to believe had really changed." — Rebecca Solnit [10:03]
• Public Education:
  • An education has taken place—among feminists and the general public—regarding the true dynamics and prevalence of sexual violence, as well as the problematic stereotypes surrounding victims.

5. Lies, Power, and Politics

• Why Facts Lose to Lies:
  • Wickenden and Solnit examine why truth often fails to defeat lies when those in power are determined to dominate the narrative.
• Trump Administration as Case Study:
  • Solnit: The Trump presidency marked an “intensity of lying” unmatched by predecessors, with lies being used as demonstrations of power rather than attempts to deceive credibly.
  • Quote:
    • "Forcing people to accept things that we all know are lies is a kind of naked show of power." — Rebecca Solnit [13:25]
  • Reference to Karl Rove’s “reality-based community” illustrates the deliberate construction of false narratives by those in power.
• Broader Societal Implications:
  • Similar dynamics play out in climate change denial and police brutality cases—facts are routinely overpowered by those with more social, economic, or political capital.
  • Solnit advocates for the "democracy of voices" as a remedy, where all are equally heard and believed.

6. Effects Beyond Weinstein: Political and Cultural Backlash

• NDAs and Accountability:
  • A shift is underway, with increased scrutiny and resistance to non-disclosure agreements that have long protected abusers and institutions.
  • Elizabeth Warren’s public confrontation of Michael Bloomberg and focus on NDAs is mentioned as a positive political example.
• Quote:
  • "I do think that a lot of what we're seeing with the Trump administration, with white supremacy, with this misogynist backlash, is backlash...They're freaking out because in some ways we are approaching an era of a democracy of voices." — Rebecca Solnit [18:23]
• Backlash as Sign of Progress:
  • The current backlash against marginalized groups is presented as a response from those threatened by genuine progress toward equality.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the significance of Weinstein's conviction:
  "The fact he was convicted at all is magnificent and kind of remarkable because about 3% of rapists who are actually charged with rape are actually convicted." — Rebecca Solnit [04:51]

• On historical and ongoing disbelief of women:
  "We have a massive history of women being treated...as manipulative, devious, unreliable, delusional, subjective; just unqualified to testify to what just happened." — Rebecca Solnit [07:42]

• On the Trump administration's relationship to truth:
  "Whereas the Trump administration almost seems to triumph in its lies...Forcing people to accept things that we all know are lies is a kind of naked show of power." — Rebecca Solnit [13:25]

• On hope for the future:
  "I do think demographics [are] on our side, I do think women are not going to give up and go home. I do think these changes are moving forward in some ways culturally, in many parts of the legal system, on campuses, etc. But we are up against terrible things and we are facing a rogue administration that is itself the greatest enemy this country faces at present, as far as I'm concerned." — Rebecca Solnit [18:23]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and Context of the Weinstein Case: [01:16–03:06]
• Solnit on Impunity and Power Structures: [03:06–04:51]
• Defense Tactics and Victim Complexities: [04:51–07:42]
• Law, Inequality, and Societal Shifts: [07:42–10:03]
• Long Arc of Feminism and #MeToo Movement: [10:03–12:15]
• Why Lies Prevail in Politics: [12:15–14:45]
• Discussion of Broader Issues (Climate, Police, Gender): [14:45–16:27]
• Trump, Politics, and Post-Truth Dynamics: [16:15–17:52]
• Backlash, NDAs, and Progress: [17:52–19:47]

---

Tone and Style

The episode is urgent yet reflective, blending critical analysis with cautious optimism. Solnit and Wickenden speak with clarity and conviction, making sophisticated connections across cultural, legal, and political domains to illuminate the mechanics of both silencing and change for women in America.

---

Summary Takeaway

Rebecca Solnit and Dorothy Wickenden’s conversation moves beyond the specifics of the Weinstein case to interrogate the structures that perpetuate silence and impunity for the powerful. Their analysis links the personal and political, exposing how institutional power, social mistrust of women, and systematic lying safeguard abusers not just in Hollywood but throughout society. Despite formidable backlash, they see evidence of genuine progress toward a more equitable democracy of voices, where facts and experiences from all can begin to carry real weight.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

As summer draws to a close and the kids go back to school, I know I'm going to want to keep in touch with my kids at a price I can afford. Back to school Shopping can be a hassle, but your phone plan shouldn't be. That's why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while other parents are sweating overage charges, I have a little bit more room in my budget for cool back to school threads. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Dish overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a [e-mail] New Yorker that's that's mintmobile.com New Yorker upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and guests about Politics. It's Thursday, February 27th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. This week, the former film producer Harvey Weinstein was convicted in a New York court of a criminal sexual act in the first degree and third degree rape. Weinstein has been accused by more than 90 women of sexual harassment, assault or rape, and he has become an emblem of how men with money and power are protected, sometimes over decades, from the consequences of their misdeeds. He'll be sentenced on March 11 and faces between five and 29 years in prison. He is also facing several felony charges and trial in a Los Angeles court. If convicted, he could face up to another 28 years in prison. Weinstein continues to claim that he's entirely innocent, and last week, in an interview with the Times, Donna Rotunno, the lawyer leading Weinstein's defense team, attempted to shift blame from her client to his accusers.

[Podcast Host]

So that notion that he could hurt people's careers I absolutely find ridiculous. The second part of your question is these are still choices that women are making. And whether they're choices you're happy you made or not happy you made, you still made a choice. And women have to start owning those choices. And they either have to say, I'm not going to do these things to attempt to get a job or I'm going to own my choice for making that decision.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rebecca Solnit, who has written books and essays about women's rights, great grassroots activism, environmental issues and many other subjects, joins me to discuss how flagrant lies prevail over truth in business and politics and what it takes to expose them. Rebecca, welcome back to the program.

[Rebecca Solnit]

My pleasure.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So you and others have described the Weinstein verdict as a watershed moment in the MeToo movement, but you also described it in a piece for the Times this week as a warning. Could you explain what you meant?

[Rebecca Solnit]

Yeah, I'm not sure it's a watershed because it stops one man, not all men. But the warning may stop a lot of other men. And what this signifies, as some of the other arrest charges and convictions do, is, hey, guys, the era of impunity is over. If you're thinking of doing this, you may not get away with it the way you did before or guys like you did before, because what all these men counted on is that these women were not going to be heard, or if they were heard, they were not going to be believed, or if they were going to be believed, it still wouldn't matter. That's the audibility, credibility and consequence of voice that women have so long lacked. And that is the precondition that makes these long sexual assault campaigns of people like Harvey Weinstein, while being public figures, so possible.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Even many people who were absolutely convinced of Weinstein's guilt were worried that he would somehow get off in this trial. And he had a very strong defense attorney, Donna Rattano, whom we just heard above, you know, who's argued that having voluntary sex with someone, even if it's a begrudging act, is not a crime after the fact. I'm curious what you think the jurors made of her arguments. He was. Weinstein was acquitted of the two most serious charges, first degree rap, rape, and two counts of predatory sexual assault, which would have carried life sentences.

[Rebecca Solnit]

I think the fact he was convicted at all is magnificent and kind of remarkable because about 3% of rapists who are actually charged with rape are actually convicted. The conviction rate for rape is incredibly low, whether it's, you know, the frat boy in the dorm or, you know, almost any other category, let alone an Incredibly rich guy with some of the most powerful and aggressive lawyers working on his behalf. So the fact there was a conviction at all seems to me, as somebody who's looked at thousands of cases like this, a huge victory, even if it wasn't comprehensive. It's also, as other people have pointed out, a victory for people beginning to understand the complexity of what happens when you're a victim and why victims often act in ways that are not what the kind of textbook demands, which is that you stand up, you scream, you call the police, you act with a kind of empowered fury and indignation. And the fiction that I tried to address in this New York Times piece is that we all have equal power. We all have these wonderful decisions to take, these charismatic actions that will cause these appropriate legal responses. You know, we are all equal under the law. On paper, you look at all the things, things Weinstein employed, including David Boies, the most powerful lawyer in the country, arguably the Black Cube spy agency, to intimidate, silence, manipulate journalists as well as victims. You know, even leaving aside the tendency of this culture to believe men over women almost automatically, they did not have equal power. These women did not have good choices available until everything changed, thanks to the New York Times journalists and Ronan Farrow at the New Yorker's Journalism. And people were actually willing to listen to them and have what they said have consequences.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

I think we need to point out, too, even though it may seem obvious, that the silencing of women isn't limited to public figures with lots of money to throw around and, you know, expensive lawyers to defend them. In the past year in the New Yorker alone, we had Rachel Aviv reporting about a woman named Jessica Lester, whose abusive husband was a cop. Larissa McFarker about a battered women's shelter in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and Elizabeth Flock about Brittany Smith, who attempted unsuccessfully to claim the stand you'd ground defense in Alabama after she killed the man who raped her. Is there any evidence that relatively recent laws like stand you'd ground are beginning to make a difference?

[Rebecca Solnit]

That was such an extraordinary piece about the woman in Alabama and how selectively stand you'd ground is enforced. We saw it earlier, earlier with, I believe it was in Florida, a black woman who fired a shot that did not hit her threatening estranged husband right after she'd given birth and was jailed and not allowed to use that defense. So even the idea that you have the right to defend yourself, where we're all supposedly equal under the law, doesn't make us equal. Not only because men own most of the guns in this country, but because it's far more acceptable for men and for white men than for anybody else. The difficult thing is that we have all this stuff on paper that says we're all equal. And people who don't want to understand how unequal we are blame the victims by pretending that they're failing to act from a position of equality rather than to recognize. What I think this jury did recognize is that we're not. We are not equal. We have a massive history of women being treated. You can go back to even the Old Testament if you want to. Women being treated as manipulative, devious, unreliable, delusional, subjective, just unqualified to testify to what just happened. And you see, he said, she said things all the time in politics everywhere in which the default assumption of too many people is that men are automatically reliable sources in women, therefore are not.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And no recognition of the incredible courage it takes for these women to come forward.

[Rebecca Solnit]

I feel a lot of like, what changed that Harvey Weinstein was charged is the we when we talk about changed. And part of it was the boring feminism of the past 50 years that made women judges, women editors, including the one I'm talking to women, you know, executive producers at TV stations, you know, women detectives, women in positions of power, but also feminist men, men who did not automatically discount women, did not think men. And men's needs and rights and versions were more important.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And hence what we saw with the jurors, which was really heartening.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Yeah, yeah. There's a way that people constantly try and frame me to this October 2017 thing as the beginning of something, but I think it was the culmination of something which was a gradual social shift, so that the people who decided who we're going to listen to and who we're going to believe had really changed. Another thing I think is really significant is we've all had an incredible education if we've been paying attention into what actually happens. A lot of the cliches and stereotypes that false accusations are common in rape is rare. That the only innocent victim is the nun holding a revolver while locked in a bank vault. All these ways in which we've failed to understand the complexity of what happens. How often it's. How happens between people who know each other. How often the forms of coercion aren't only physical violence. How often what happens afterwards, including what the police and the legal system do to the victim, is also intrusive, degrading, violating. And this incredible conversation we've been having, not since October of 2017, but since about 2012 has given us all equipment to understand these situations that we didn't have before. I've been a feminist for most of my adult life, and I have learned so much from these conversations, from victims and experts, historians, sociologists, legal experts, all coming forward and telling us what happens. Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Charlamagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm also interested in the wider argument you're making about why people armed with a vast array of facts nevertheless so often don't prevail against pathological liars. And I spoke on this program, I spoke a few years ago actually, right near the beginning of the Trump presidency, to Cisco le Bock, who in 78, as you know, after Watergate published her classic book Moral Choice in Public and Private Life. She argues there what we basically know, that deceit is an intrinsic part of politics. But she writes specifically political lies, so often assumed to be trivial by those who tell them, rarely are they cannot be trivial when they have affect so many people and when they are so peculiarly likely to be imitated, used to retaliate and spread from a few to many. When political representatives or entire governments arrogate to themselves the right to lie, they take power from the public. That would not have been given up voluntarily. So I just found that an extraordinarily relevant statement given what we're living through right now with the Trump administration.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Absolutely. And with the Trump administration, we've seen a completely different kind and volume and intensity of lying. You look at the way someone like Richard Nixon lied and he lied, not wanting to get caught, trying to make it pass his truth, you know, with a kind of cringing, sneaky way of putting it across. Whereas the Trump administration almost seems to triumph in its lies. As Heather Cox Richardson says, and I mention in this article, forcing people to accept things that we all know are lies is a kind of naked show of power of I don't even have to play by the rules. I don't even need you to believe me, because you don't even matter enough for your belief in your buy in to count anymore. And it really Kind of goes back to Karl Rove saying that thing on the Air Force One to a journalist about the reality based community. And now we just write the narrative. And it doesn't have to be reality based, but we see that all across the board. We see that in how fossil fuel corporations created a false debate about the reality of climate change.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

We see, Amy, after, by the way, they had their own scientists confirm that this was a problem, and then they spent decades and many millions of dollars denying it.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Absolutely. And so what I really wanted to do in this article is not just talk about what happened with Weinstein and not just what happens with sexual assault and gender violence and the gender politics of it, but to recognize, recognize that much more broadly, we have so many undemocratic inequalities of power in which power prevails over facts, whether it's about climate change, whether it's about police brutality against black victims, whether it's about gender. And the ideals this country keeps asserting is an equality of audibility, credibility and consequence where anyone can speak up, everyone will be listened to, and we're going to sort it out by what the facts are, what appears to be true. But that's so often not how it works. And for me, the cure is a democracy of voices where we actually listen in much more egalitarian ways, where we don't let people have the kind of power Harvey Weinstein had, both the power of male authority and the power of extreme wealth and clout in his industry to silence so many women. And the fact that these women were actresses who are in movies and on TV and awards ceremonies, and none of them were in a position where they felt they could just, you know, call a press conference, call the police, say this happened is about the fact that we don't have a democracy of voices and we desperately need to.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And Rebecca, of course, President Trump was elected after the country learned that he had many allegations against him of sexual misconduct on his part.

[Rebecca Solnit]

What's fascinating about Trump's situation is that those of us who believe the woman, the many, many women who've charged him with many things, from unwanted kissing and groping and harassment to sexual assault, were so against him anyway. It doesn't make a difference. And then the people who are for him refused to hear and believe the woman. And so Trump is this bizarre phenomenon where even the news stories, even extraordinary testimony from people like E. Jean Carroll, doesn't really seem to change anything. And that's shocking and dismaying at the same time that it's completely understandable because we are so divided between those who think Trump can do no wrong and those of us who recognize that he's done so much of it. But the fact that the Republican Party has also taken a post fact, post truth position that we are behind this guy, we don't care what the facts are, we will openly try to suppress the facts. We don't care what the law is, we will openly violate the law is part of the really big trouble we're in. And it's incredibly dangerous. I'm hoping that we can vote our way out of it. I'm not sure that we can, but it feels almost that the enormity of the crisis is rarely acknowledged, that it's seen as procedural rather than foundational, conceptional, existential.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

But to end on a somewhat more hopeful note, which I try to do whenever possible, we are seeing some of the effects effects of the Bill Cosby and Weinstein cases, not least in the backlash against non disclosure agreements between companies and accusers. And most recently we saw this twice in recent Democratic debates when Elizabeth Warren went after Michael Bloomberg, charging him with sexual harassment and gender discrimination in the workplace and demanding that he release the women who signed NDAs with him when he was head of Bloomberg.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Yeah, no, that was a, that was beautiful to see. And it was also fascinating to see the assumption Bloomberg had that he could have override the facts. And then Chris Matthews, failing to comprehend that Elizabeth Warren had believed a woman when a man had a powerful high status man had said otherwise and failing to comprehend that actually that woman had said so on the record, that a man had backed her up, that the Washington Post had interviewed that man, that Elizabeth Warren was proceeding on evidence and was not some flighty woman. I do think that a lot of what we're seeing with the Trump administration, with white supremacy, with this misogynist backlash, is backlash. They're freaking out because in some ways we are approaching an era of a democracy of voices, with more people of color, more women, more non cisgender, non straight people participating and they're clearly unhappy with it. I do think demographics on our side, I do think women are not going to give up and go home. I do think these changes are moving forward in some ways culturally, in many parts of the legal system, on campuses, etc. But we are up against terrible things and we are facing a rogue administration that is itself the greatest enemy this country faces at present, as far as I'm concerned.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thank you so much, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Thank you, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Rebecca Solnit is the author of more than 20 books, including the forthcoming memoir, Recollection of My Non Existence, which will be published in March. This has been the political scene. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker in your podcast app and find more political analysis and commentary on newyorker.com feel free to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Our theme music is by Russell Gillespie. This program was produced by Alex Barron and Kylie warner for new yorker.com welcome. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[Rebecca Solnit]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director. I'm Michael Colory, Wired's director of consumer, Tech and Culture.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired, and our show Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Podcast Host]

And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined.

[Rebecca Solnit]

So each week we get together to.

[Podcast Host]

Talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Right? So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Affecting Washington and how they affect you.

[Rebecca Solnit]

Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you.

[Podcast Host]

Don'T miss an episode.

[Rebecca Solnit]

From PRX.