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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Representative Abigail Spanberger and the “National-Security Democrats” Turn the Tide on Impeachment
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Representative Abigail Spanberger and the “National-Security Democrats” Turn the Tide on Impeachment
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- [00:00]
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- [01:16]
Dorothy Wickenden
This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and guests about Politics. It's Friday, October 18th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. On September 23rd, the day before House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced the start of the impeachment inquiry, Representative Abigail Spanberger joined six other moderate freshman Democrats, all from swing districts and all veterans of the military, defense and intelligence communities, to declare that they believed President Trump poses a threat to the nation. In an op ed in the Washington Post, the group wrote that it was Congress's constitutional duty to determine whether Trump had pressured the new president of Ukraine to assist him in the 2020 election. They emphasized that they did not arrive at this conclusion lightly, but that, quote, this flagrant disregard for the law cannot stand. Representative Spanberger is a former undercover CIA officer focusing on counterterrorism and nuclear proliferation, who represents a district in Virginia that before last year was a Republican stronghold for 48 consecutive years. Shortly after the publication of the op ed, she talked on CNN about how she is examining the allegations against Trump.
- [02:36]
Podcast Host (e.g., Asma Khalid or Katie Drummond)
The purpose of the op ed that you mentioned, that we wrote, was to outline for the American people and for our constituents that the allegations facing the president, allegations that he would use his political position and his power as president to influence or pressure a foreign nation to provide information, dig up dirt on a political opponent, and that he would potentially use security assistance dollars to do it, are unthinkable allegations. And we need to use all of the tools available to Congress to get to the bottom of that.
- [03:08]
Dorothy Wickenden
Representative Spanberger joins me to discuss the challenges of being a moderate Democrat in a left leaning party, her perspective on Trump's debacles in Ukraine and northern Syria, and what advice she has for Democrats running in the 2020 elections. Representative Spamberger, welcome and thank you so much for coming on.
- [03:29]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
Thank you for having me, Dorothy.
- [03:31]
Dorothy Wickenden
So I think it's fair to say that the left wing of the party has gotten more attention since 2018 than your cohort has. Everyone knows about Alexandria, Ocasio, Cortez and the squad, but I'm not sure that our listeners could what your gang of nine represents or know that you and the four other female members of the gang call yourselves the badass women, which I love. So in the post op ed, you all wrote that you were focused on delivering for your constituents on healthcare, infrastructure, economic policy and the priorities of your communities. So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about that, who you all are and why you think that you represent the future of the party.
- [04:17]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
Sure. Well, the great thing about the Democratic Party, it is a big tent party. We have people from across the spectrum, people from across the country. I come from a district in Central Virginia where 10 counties in total. Seven of my counties are predominantly rural, three are more suburban. So even just within my congressional district, the focus as once I get in the car and go from county to county changes. And so my colleagues, and certainly those who have backgrounds in national security, we have found ourselves united on a couple things. One, we came to this job with a sense of mission that was built upon our prior experience. And that experience is that we had worked in a nonpartisan way, either myself at CIA, my colleagues in the military, where your service is service to country. And there isn't a political lens to it. So to some degree, it's been interesting to jump into politics and now have a political lens on some of the major priorities that we previously had been working to achieve. And I think that's the commonality for those of us who are new with these national security backgrounds.
- [05:25]
Dorothy Wickenden
But on a national level, you know, there are major disagreements within the party on health care reform and economic policy. So maybe you could talk just a little bit about where you all stand on those two big difficult issues.
- [05:40]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
Yeah. So, you know, I think that where most people stand. Well, I think pretty much everyone in the Democratic Party stands is the idea that we want to ensure that everyone has access to affordable, quality health care. And for some people, they're pursuing a single payer option. I am personally a supporter of a public option plan. You know, even within you, you mentioned my group of national security cohort folks. We've got some of us support public options, some of us support single payer. But the priority is that this is a problem that needs a significant and solid solution because it impacts the daily lives of our constituents. It is not just a health care issue for the individuals and families aff, it's a larger economic issue for our communities where people are choosing not to go to work because they're sick or people are going bankrupt because of an illness. And it's a national security issue. And I do see everything through the lens of national security because when we have a workforce that isn't well and can't get preventative health care and we have kids graduating from high school who are not eligible for the military because of a pre existing condition or because of challenges they're facing due to chronic illness, you know, this really does impact us all. And so I think where we all are united is in trying to address this. You know, when there's currently debates on television, rather frequently the debates focus on the differences. But I think the unifying and really important factor is what's the actual goal. And the goal is to be the party that wants to make sure that every American can go to the doctor when they need it and can pick up their prescriptions at the pharmacy that are necessary to keep them healthy and alive.
- [07:22]
Dorothy Wickenden
So the Mueller report found that Russia had meddled in the 2016 election, even though a lot of voters are confused about that and don't agree that that was discovered in the report. And I was interested in reading about you the other day, that you're on a task force which is studying how to prevent future foreign tampering in elections. This is a source of great worry, of course, to everybody. What have you found so far?
- [07:46]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
So the challenges are great. And when the special counsel report came out and everyone seemed to be focused on what the President had or hadn't done or, or didn't know, a group of us got together and founded this task force, Task Force Century. And you know, in the Military. In the intelligence community, when there is a problem that needs to be addressed, it is the common practice to stand up a task force, bring people together from across different areas to address the challenge, the problem, the concern. And so that's exactly what we did here. Because while so many people were focused on what the President did or didn't do, our premise, our thought was what we're not focusing on, what we're not discussing as much, but need to, is how did this happen? And how is it that a foreign adversary nation was able to influence our elections? What weaknesses exist in our system that this is in fact possible? It's about understanding what the Russians did when they aggressed against us. And how is it that we, through legislation and can plug all of the holes that exist that made it possible.
- [08:51]
Dorothy Wickenden
And will we have some of those protections in place by 2020?
- [08:57]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
That is a, that's a challenge at this point. So our task force has introduced, I believe we're more than five bills at this point that have their origination in this task force. We previously have voted within the House on a package related to election security that is separate. And in addition to HR1, which is our largest campaign finance reform, election security and good governance bill that we voted on in the House, that cannot get a vote in the Senate. And that bill included an amendment, my amendment, which would require that the Director of National Intelligence provide a report to the states 180 days before an election outlining whatever threats may exist to their infrastructure. So this is on the infrastructure, not on the social media influence side of things. States can only take action to protect themselves if they in fact understand the scope of the threat. You know, it is incumbent upon the states to be able to have an intelligence collection ability. So we need the Director of National Intelligence to provide this information to the states so that they can take action.
- [10:01]
Dorothy Wickenden
And you're working with Republicans on this?
- [10:04]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
Yes. So on Task Force entry, Task Force Century has been bipartisan. There's a new slate of election security bills with called the Shield Act. We expect that that will get a passing vote with bipartisan support. But again, it's what happens in the Senate. We are taking action in the House of Representatives and our bills are not getting a vote in the Senate. So unless the Senate takes action and takes action quickly, I think your listeners need to know that we are not positioned to be any stronger in 2020 in the face of these threats than we were in 2016.
- [10:40]
Dorothy Wickenden
One source of disagreement between your gang and the squad was your initial hesitancy about A formal impeachment inquiry. Why did you choose not to call for hearings until the end of September?
- [10:54]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
So there's. With more than 200 members of the Democratic Caucus, we really had a broad scope of where people fell on this issue. And from my perspective, what I saw was I saw multiple committees of jurisdiction looking into information, some of it that had come out of the special counsel's report, some of it originating in other actions exhibited by the President and those committees inquiries. Those committee's efforts were ongoing. And from my perspective, I thought it was incumbent upon those committees to lead their individual efforts based on their areas of jurisdiction. For me, in September, the situation changed significantly and it wasn't this. One additional thing changed my mind. For me, it was a separate and discreet set of facts, and that is that we had an allegation against the President of the United States that he had used his power and position to request and leverage a foreign leader to provide information about a political opponent. And that is a distinct and jarring allegation.
- [12:04]
Dorothy Wickenden
And has this shed new light on some of the allegations in the Mueller report about obstruction of justice, election interference, and the rest?
- [12:15]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
From my perspective, they really are separate. Certainly there is thematically the fact that the administration seems inclined to turn its attention towards actors and foreign leaders in a way that is distinct from anything that's set in precedent by presidential action. But this is separate.
- [12:36]
Podcast Host (e.g., Asma Khalid or Katie Drummond)
America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story. Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [13:07]
Dorothy Wickenden
What are the more conservative members of your district? How are their views about impeachment changing, if they are at all?
- [13:16]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
So my district is a district that voted for the president by almost seven points. Mine is a district that wants me to deliver on all of the things I talked about along the campaign, which notably was not the president and certainly not an impeachment inquiry. And I talked about prescription drugs and I talked about returning civility and decency to politics and ensuring that people have access to broadband Internet. There are people in my district who are displeased with my position related to the impeachment inquiry. And I have a strong belief that I owe it to them as their representative to speak very clearly about the position I took in September, that in fact, I do think that Congress should use all the authorities available to it, including the power of an impeachment inquiry, to get to the bottom of these most recent allegations against the president.
- [14:09]
Dorothy Wickenden
The Democrats held their fourth presidential debate this week, as you know, and the consensus afterward, at least among the pundits, was that the moderates were finally making themselves heard, mostly by challeng challenging Elizabeth Warren. But the fact remains that Warren and Sanders, Bernie Sanders, have raised the most money and Biden has been slipping recently. So I'm interested, given yourwhere you're coming from on the political spectrum, why you think so many voters are finding these progressives so appealing.
- [14:42]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
You know, I can't speak to what Democratic primary voters across the country do or don't see in particular candidates. I can speak to what it takes to win a primary in my district and what it takes to win a general election in my district. But I do think it's good that we have a continued, strong, healthy debate about where it is that we are taking our country. And I think the largest, most important priority for any person running for president is that they tell voters what they are for, that they tell voters why the world, the economy, their lives will be better if they vote for them.
- [15:22]
Dorothy Wickenden
You know, one of the most striking statements, to me anyway, and to others in this recent debate was Pete Buttigieg's comments about how his military service informed his view of Trump's troop withdrawal in northern Syria and the abandonment of the Kurds. And he said, I knew one of the things keeping me safe was the flag on my shoulder represented a country that kept its word. You take away the honor of our soldiers, you might as well go after their body armor next. The president has betrayed American values. Is that your view?
- [15:54]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
So my view is we have, since the end of World War II and before, but predominantly since the world, the end of World War II, been a global leader. We've been a global leader in what democracy looks like. We've been a global leader in what it is means to be a strong, thriving country. We have led by example, and we have been able to create broad coalitions because we have lived by the example that we set. What for me, is so deeply troubling about the foreign policy we are seeing from this administration is we are demonstrating that we do not keep our promises. Everything from the JCPOA to the Paris Accord to the antagonistic relationship we've taken towards our friends and allies in our trade policy, we have demonstrated that we at times cannot be trusted that we will change our minds. And what has happened in Syria is just a pinnacle example of this because it means that our allies are going to and have already begun to die. We asked the Syrian Democratic Forces to join us in the fight against isis, to support us, to fight with us.
- [17:11]
Dorothy Wickenden
To die in much higher numbers than American soldiers did.
- [17:16]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
Yes. And they did the heavy lifting. They have worked as we have asked them to. They have led, you know, the efforts to close the physical space of the Caliphate of ISIS within Syria. That has been the success of the partnership. And to walk away from that is just shocking to see a complete reversal because of something that the President tweeted out. It was shocking and continues to be.
- [17:48]
Dorothy Wickenden
Representative Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan, who is one of your cohort in Congress, pointed out to Politico recently that since Ronald Reagan, Republicans have really pretty much owned patriotism and support for the military. And she said the Democratic Party has a once in a generation opportunity to retake the flag of national security.
- [18:09]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
I don't think we. I don't think we ever lost it. I don't think we ever lost it. I think there have been strong members of the military, some who vote for Republicans, some who vote for Democrats. Where this generational opportunity comes, as Alyssa said, is on this sadness that exists with the fact that we are abandoning our place in the world and we're doing it to our own detriment, our own economic detriment, our own national security detriment. And it will be a generation before we can even begin to repair this with leaders throughout the world.
- [18:42]
Dorothy Wickenden
So the conventional wisdom is that if the economy is strong, the incumbent presidential incumbent has the advantage. Everything is about this president is unprecedented. It's almost impossible to anticipate how all of this is going to fall out in the end. But I assume that you think, given where we are in Syria and given the craziness of what's going on with the Ukrainian situation, that this will inevitably continue to play a big role as we go forward toward 2020.
- [19:15]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
I can't actually speak to that. I think it's a top issue for people on Capitol Hill. I think it's a top issue for a lot of national reporters. It isn't a top issue for people back home. People back home care about the value of the American handshake. They care about whether or not their kids are going to be safe if they join the military, whether or not their kids will return home. They care about those things. But at the end of the day, they also want legislators in Washington and an executive in Washington that's actually working to do the business of making this country the promise that it has always been a place of opportunity, a place of growth domestically. We need to make sure we're keeping our house in order and growing opportunities, strengthening our economy in a way that's meaningful. So I, you know, I absolutely think that this has been a shaking event and it certainly has resonated in my district more than other issues of international relations have. But at the end of the day, if we're looking towards 2020, if we are to see a Democratic, it is going to be because they will be strong on the message of who we are as a people and what it is that we are doing to make our country this place of opportunity and to address those very, very real issues that impact people's decisions every single day of the week.
- [20:36]
Dorothy Wickenden
Thank you so much, Representative Spamberger.
- [20:39]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
Thank you very much. I appreciate.
- [20:44]
Dorothy Wickenden
Abigail Spamberger is a U.S. representative serving Virginia's 7th district. This has been the political scene. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker in your podcast app and find more political analysis and commentary on new yorker.com feel free to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Our theme music is by Russell Gillespie. This program was produced by Alex Barron and kylie warner for newyorker.com Dorothy I'm Dorothy Wickenden.
- [21:18]
Podcast Host (e.g., Asma Khalid or Katie Drummond)
I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director. I'm Michael Kollory, Wired's director of consumer Tech and Culture.
- [21:25]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
And I'm Lauren Good.
- [21:26]
Dorothy Wickenden
I'm a senior correspondent at Wired.
- [21:28]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
And our show Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.
- [21:34]
Podcast Host (e.g., Asma Khalid or Katie Drummond)
And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics. Right? So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are affecting Washington and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.
- [22:04]
Representative Abigail Spanberger
From prx.