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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Ronan Farrow and Alexandra Schwartz Talk to David Remnick About the Effects of the Weinstein Scandal
00:18:18
Ronan Farrow and Alexandra Schwartz Talk to David Remnick About the Effects of the Weinstein Scandal
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- [00:00]
A
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B
I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, David Remnick talks with Ronan Farrow and Alexandra Schwartz. Farrow's reporting on sexual misconduct allegations against Harvey Weinstein has contributed to a movement to expose the abuses of powerful men.
- [01:36]
C
We're experiencing right now something that's got to be almost unprecedented in American society, across the nation, in entertainment, in media, broadcasting technology, the workplace, everywhere, even in politics. More and more every day, we see powerful men being accused of sexual harassment and worse, and they're being held to account for it. Women are speaking up and they're being believed. In this wave of allegations, some of the most shocking charges were published here at the New Yorker about a group of women who talked about their experiences at the hands of the film producer Harvey Weinstein. Reporting in the magazine recounts behavior by Weinstein that went far beyond harassment. It went straight to outright rape. Those were the accusations and they're denied by Harvey Weinstein. Ronan Farrow wrote those extraordinary pieces for the New Yorker and he joined me in the studio along with Alexandra Schwartz, who's been covering the effects of the Weinstein scandal in our society. Ronan, I'd like to start with you. And the issue I'd like to begin with is why, in your experience, women don't bring these charges forward to and are silent for so long. And then what happened? Why has this moment happened when the New York Times and the New Yorker were finally able to get women to talk about, in this instance, Harvey Weinstein? And then obviously this has had a kind of gate opening effect.
- [03:06]
D
This has been a major theme in our reporting, right. Trying to convey the nuances of why it is so hard for sexual assault survivors to speak. And particularly in cases like this where they're going up against this massive PR apparatus. And it's a panoply of reasons, it's personal reasons to do with the often paralyzing effect of this kind of trauma on an individual level. You know, the women we've interviewed talk at length about the career fears as well. Some of these concerns are pragmatic. It's a whole range. And I think one of the things that has been an awakening associated with this entire moment is people understanding in a way they didn't before just how hard it is to speak.
- [03:46]
C
Well, what happened when you began your reporting, when you went and you probably started hearing about 3, 4 women in the beginning, obviously there are many more to come. And when you approach these women, what kind of resistance did you get? Or did you get immediate acceptance? What was the process?
- [04:04]
D
Well, you know, a good example is actually the way in which people wavered. This wasn't always linear. Rose McGowan went on the record, told her story in agonizing detail very painfully. But she then entered a, you know, legal confrontation with Harvey Weinstein and became fearful and for a time wavered, you know, and then after that, she, she was voluble and talking once again. In another case, Annabella Sciora, the actress, lied to me initially, you know, said nothing happened. Nothing happened. And it was only seven months later, you know, after our initial piece ran, that she called me and broke down and said, actually, here's what happened. And it turned out that story checked out.
- [04:44]
C
Did she describe to you why initially she decided not to talk at all, why she lied to you in the beginning?
- [04:50]
D
She did. Anabella was one of the people to talk about this fear that I think so many survivors of sexual assault have of being branded, of this being the one thing they're known for for the rest of their lives. It is, it's, you know, an on, off switch for our society. If you come forward with this kind of an allegation. You are always a survivor with a.
- [05:10]
C
Capital S. That's your first paragraph in your obituary, as it were.
- [05:13]
D
Yeah, I think that's the fear. And, you know, perhaps we're coming to a point in this conversation where it overshadows one less, but I think that's still a very legitimate concern. But, you know, she also talked about the specific fears here of this robust PR machine, a person who was very powerful and very litigious, and as we've chronicled in our reporting, also a really unthinkable before, I reported on this machine of private investigators and, you know, people operating undercover going after these women. Annabella Sciora was one of the many women who received a call that she found suspicious from a journalist who turned out to be linked to this whole thing.
- [05:54]
C
But, Alex, one of the particularities of this story is that it happened with show business. And in show business, you have a man of late middle age who's basically having one attractive woman after another come in front of him, and he's choosing who shall live and who shall die, who shall be at work, who shall not. So placed in this almost parody like position of power and sexual power. But as we know, this is one instance of many, many, many in many, many fields, and this kind of activity has been going on forever. Is it that this has broken through with a show business moment, or is there a negative side to that, do you think?
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E
Well, I actually think in some ways it's crucial that it broke through in this kind of field, because this is the first example I can really think of where famous women have come forward as a group and said, this happened to me. This was a problem for me. Rather than women becoming famous because they came forward with a sexual harassment or assault claim. I mean, you can think of other cases like the Anita Hill case, where that was the first time, I think much of America thought about the concept of workplace sexual harassment. But nobody knew who Anita Hill was before the Clarence Thomas hearings. Nobody knew. That's what she became known for. In this case, we're dealing with actresses who the public knows. And I also think that the public has a really intimate relationship with Hollywood stars. You see them, you know, for much of your own life, you feel close to them in a certain way. That's what acting is. And I think it was huge to have that, you know, that level of public figure be able to come forward.
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C
To both of you. Do you think that fame makes an accuser more credible or in the court of public opinion, is that somehow transferable then to the rest of society.
- [07:43]
D
I think it can cut both ways. You know, people can be more skeptical of Hollywood. It can be unrelatable in some ways. But it is true that anyone in a position of authority and influence that serves as a signaling mechanism when they come forward, even I would say, within that Hollywood community. One of the comments that has stuck with me in this is. And Anabella Sciora said in a very small voice, she was in a dark place at that time. You know, I looked at these other women, Gwyneth Paltrow, Mira Sorvino, and I thought, they're so beautiful. They're so poised. They come from great families. It could have never happened to them.
- [08:18]
E
Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why the ball got rolling to the degree that it has, because you could look at women who are extremely accomplished and say, oh, if this is a problem, I think that's part of what MeToo has been about. If this was a problem for someone like her, then, wow. It's not just about me personally. I mean, the level of impact goes so far beyond Hollywood and so far beyond, honestly, any particular industry. I mean, many of these stories are personal. They have to do with family relationships. They have to do with friends or romantic relationships. It's not just in these very, you know, public or workplace situations.
- [08:58]
C
Who's to be believed automatically in these cases?
- [09:03]
E
I read something the other day that I think gets at it really well. There's a phrase, believe women, believe women doesn't just mean automatically believe women. The man's word has no weight. I think it's meant as a corrective to what is often the situation, which is often a sense of not believing women as a default. If you were reminded to believe women as a default, it may help to correct so many of these situations.
- [09:28]
C
You wrote a terrific essay about the Louis CK incident, and I've read you for a while now, happily. But I've never heard or seen you write more with a sense of. With rage. I think I can call it that.
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E
No. Yeah, I think so. Fury and rage. I felt betrayed. I think other people have felt this way by Louis, specifically. Why? Because I thought he was someone, and he may still be someone who in some part of his brain gets it. I was just looking at a joke of his that I linked to in my piece. That's a great joke. And he says, you know, men are the number one threat to women. What's the number one cause of death for men? It's heart disease. It's your own heart saying, you know, I can't go on anymore. But for women, you have to be totally insane to go on a date with a man. And our species depends on it. You know, I think he describes it as being, imagine if someone said to a man, oh, you want to go out with like, like a half bull, half lion or something like that. And so jokes like that, I think from someone like Louis, who's so smart, really made me feel like, yeah, he totally gets it. And he's able to dissect this whole poison power system from a man's perspective. That is very impressive and rare. And so it feels, it feels so disappointing.
- [10:49]
C
I have to tell you, a lot of men that I know, younger and my age and older too in this moment, have, even though they know themselves to be innocent of anything grotesque or anything on a par of what we've been discussing, they're suddenly sort of doing a sort through their romantic history of what jokes did I tell in 1998 in the workplace or my breakup with so and so was that there's a sorting through of conscience that I hear about all the time. And the flip side of this, Alex, I wonder what the conversation among women or women, you know, not just the office, just your friends and how that's changed from today, from six weeks ago.
- [11:36]
E
I think there's shock. I think it's kind of amazement and shock.
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C
But surely this is not the first time anybody's thought about this or spoken of it.
- [11:45]
E
Oh no, what changed? No, no, the amazement and shock is the idea that, that men are thinking about this. This has not been something that men have had to think about as a group or clearly individually. And I think it is good that men are, as you say, are asking themselves what did I do? Did I do anything? What should I have done differently? What could I have done differently? I'm not in any way advocating for a mass paranoia or a mass. I guess I am advocating for a mass reckoning, but not for a sense of personal fear and did I do something and did I screw something up? But these are question. It cannot just be on women to police this whole situation or to ask what is appropriate, what is inappropriate. It has to be everyone. And so I think just the sense that we may not be in it alone is profound.
- [12:33]
C
We also live in a particular political moment where the President of the United States is Donald Trump, who's been accused by I think upwards of 20 women of some form of harassment, assault, even by the his ex wife. What influence do you think Ronan that has on this moment and on this.
- [12:53]
D
Story, certainly it comes up in my conversations with women bringing forward allegations, you know, that there is a feeling of being fed up, you know, to be a woman in America right now. I mean, I'll let you comment on this, Alex, I can only imagine is an extraordinarily frustrating experience seeing those allegations swirl around and have so little effect.
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E
Yeah, I think the main issue with the Trump allegations, to me, I don't really think that it was a belief problem. I think that it was a caring problem, and that was pretty devastating.
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C
In the Roy Moore case, the Attorney General of the United States, Jeff Sessions, says, I have no reason to doubt these young women. Is that some kind of turning point? Because I have to tell you, in fairness, I'm not sure I would have heard those words from Jeff Sessions a year ago.
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D
Although the way that you just framed that does convey that we are still working from the starting point of not believing women coming forward with allegations like this. I mean, yes, that is a step that is unexpected for me too, but.
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C
The Senate Majority leader and the speaker of the House said the same thing.
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E
I'm happy to hear it. I completely agree with Ronan. It is not enough, but I am happy to hear it. It is a relief that we can. I mean, you know, that we can establish a fact and have the fact be seen as what a fact is, a neutral truth.
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C
One of the patterns of this drama has been the pattern of accusation, then the doubling and the tripling of accusations, and then comes the apologies. What do you make of the apologies that you've heard from this range of men? Whether it's Louis C.K. well, we haven't really heard from Harvey Weinstein on this, but.
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E
Well, I think the first thing that is essential in any case is a sense of acknowledgment. We got that from Louis. He said, I acknowledge that I did these things.
- [14:44]
C
What did that mean? I acknowledge it. These things happened.
- [14:47]
E
Well, I think it meant that we could stop the whole debate, the he said, she said debate, so to speak, that we could.
- [14:53]
C
The women said that you didn't apologize.
- [14:55]
E
Well, he didn't apologize, he acknowledged, but did not apologize. I found that interesting. I found that interesting. It was pretty frustrating. People havelouis is not the worst offender on this list at all. But, yes, people have pointed out that his statement made much of the admiration that these women must have had for him and how he had betrayed their admiration. That was not really the key issue.
- [15:17]
D
Pointed to him asking for permission without addressing the crucial question of whether he got that permission. Which did feel like a lacuna to me.
- [15:26]
E
Yeah. In his movie, which now, since it was pulled by the distributor, very few people will get to see. But I was one of those people. I saw it in a press screening last month.
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C
What did you make of the movie?
- [15:37]
E
I found it very bad. I found it very bad. I think I led in my review.
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C
If, like, brown paper bag afterwards bad or.
- [15:46]
E
Yeah, I mean, the first comment in my notebook was, they should have barf bags with this movie. So it was pretty bad. If you want a case study of the total objectification of women for no purpose, I think this is a pretty good one. But there's a line in the movie where Louis says, I'm sorry, women. And the Edie Falco character who plays his manager says, you mean, like all women, you're just apologizing to all of us? And Louis said, yeah, yeah, I'm apologizing. Or Louis character, I should say, I'm apologizing to all women. That doesn't work. And what is very complicated about these situations is that kind of blanket apology, whether it comes from a famous figure who has now been outed or whether it comes from, you know, a person writing on social media in response to the MeToo campaign. There have been various hashtags that men have used. Itwasme or I did that as a way of trying to, I think, trying in a positive sense, to take accountability. But apology and redress doesn't really work that way.
- [16:48]
C
You know, you look at the really large number and growing number of people who have been accused. Let's put Harvey Weinstein off to the side because his offenses seem, for the most part, much greater, or the accusations of his offensive seem much greater than, say, somebody like Louis CK Is there, in your mind, for some of the others, any sense of reconciliation, a proper apology, return to their roles in society, whether it's in show business or journalism or whatever they happen to do. Or is that a concern of the third order?
- [17:28]
E
Yeah, I think it is conceivable that there is a future for them, for sure. I don't think we need to live in a society in which you are exiled for life. And that is that no matter what the level of your offense, there is a big range. I mean, one thing that's been quite extraordinary to see now is how big the range of misbehavior is, but also the fact that things that are not even remotely close to the Harvey Weinstein level can be taken seriously as well and should be. And should be for someone like Louis. I can see him making work in the future, I certainly don't care about it right now. I don't care what his artistic future is going to look like. And he himself said in his acknowledgment statement, it's his time to listen. That's true. And if he finds a way to make amends, and most importantly, I think to empower other voices, other artists, other comedians, women, whoever, from this moment, I think that would be to the good.
- [18:24]
C
Alex, as we live through this moment and you're thinking about it, what are you also hoping for? What do you hope for the future here? What's the best outcome that you can imagine?
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E
You know, I think growing up, I was really taught if something is wrong, you can speak up and say it. If something happens to you, if something happens to a friend, whatever it is, and then later you find out, oh, well, that's not necessarily true. I would like that to be. I would like that to be true for my generation, and I would like that to be true for the women in the generation after me, for the girls not yet born. I just want it to become true. That's a high goal. I know, but that's what I feel.
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C
Alex Schwartz, Ronan Farrow. Thank you.
- [19:08]
D
Thanks.
- [19:09]
E
Thanks.
- [19:18]
B
That was Ronan Farrow and Alexandra Schwartz talking with David Remnick. We'll be back next week. Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.
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C
Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.
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D
From prx.