Ronan Farrow on the Rule of Elon Musk

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: "Ronan Farrow on the Rule of Elon Musk"

Date: August 23, 2023

Host: Tyler Foggatt

Guest: Ronan Farrow

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Ronan Farrow’s major New Yorker article examining the unprecedented power and influence amassed by Elon Musk—the world’s richest man—across critical sectors such as space, energy, AI, and global communications. Host Tyler Foggatt and Farrow explore not just Musk’s personality and public persona, but the deeper systemic issues that allow a single individual to become indispensable to state functions, with a particular focus on the implications for democracy, governance, and public oversight. The episode weaves together reporting on Musk’s business history, political evolution, and the dangerous confluence of wealth, technology, and unchecked power.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Focus on Elon Musk?

• The Systemic Problem Over the Individual
  • Farrow notes Musk is "perhaps the most overexposed person in the world," with much written already about his eccentricities and contradictions. What’s novel and critical is not just Musk himself, but the systems that have enabled one billionaire to fill roles increasingly abandoned by the state [02:05–03:28].
  • Quote:

    "If there's a villain in the piece, it's late stage capitalism... vast economic systems and political trend lines that have led to a situation where a single mega billionaire of this type can fill the spaces that are going fallow at the hands of the state."
    —Ronan Farrow [02:49]

2. Musk’s Concentration of Power

• Musk now controls essential systems for NASA, battery technology, US electric vehicle infrastructure, and even battlefield communications in Ukraine [01:16–04:00].

• The risk goes beyond his personal volatility—the issue is the existence of a "one-man monopoly" over vital technologies and platforms.

  • Quote:

    “The bigger point is... any single person with this concentration of power, any example of hyper wealth eclipsing the normal checks and balances, should be, I think, a subject of concern.”
    —Ronan Farrow [04:41]

3. Erratic Behavior and Political Instability

• Farrow discusses Musk’s reputation for erratic, sometimes extreme, behavior, including public drug use and controversial consultations with foreign powers [02:05–07:16].

• Musk’s perceived isolation and radicalization are driven, in part, by negative media coverage, loneliness, and his own psychological makeup.

  • Quote:

    “He’s dealing with all of that on a much vaster scale. Not only prominent, but also in control of so many things and, you know, surrounded by mostly people who are not going to raise questions or create accountability.”
    —Ronan Farrow [08:07]

4. The Political Shift: Alienation from the Left to Right-Friendly Spaces

• Early Musk supported Hillary Clinton and was seen as a centrist or even liberal, but his attitude hardened as his critics (especially in liberal media and Democratic politics) became harsher [07:13–12:30].
• He is wounded by exclusion from political events (like a White House EV summit) and has gravitated towards conservative and "alt-right" circles, partly out of resentment.
• Notable moment: The irony that media coverage intended to scrutinize Musk pushed him further away from that same media and created a feedback loop of alienation and radicalization.

5. Power Over Critical Infrastructure and Policy

• Farrow explains how decisions made at the federal level, even with good intentions, often result in Musk and his companies benefiting—such as the proprietary Tesla Supercharger standard becoming de facto national infrastructure with bipartisan support [12:57–14:56].

• The government faces a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” dilemma: Tesla often offers better or only available tech, but enabling its monopoly powers further entrenches Musk’s dominance.

  • Quote:

    "It’s just a very small encapsulation of how unavoidable he is in multiple policy areas for usually better and worse."
    —Ronan Farrow [14:46]

6. Strategic Business Moves in State Vacuums

• Musk consistently targets sectors where state capacity has diminished (space, infrastructure), giving him essential leverage, often making the government reliant on him for solutions [15:01–16:58].

  • Quote:

    “He wants to be the one to deliver the solution... There is this element of ego to it… he really feels he has to be the one to do that.”
    —Ronan Farrow [15:55]

7. AI and the Ambiguity of Motivations

• Musk’s entry into artificial intelligence is both mission-driven and competitive—a sincere fear of AI’s dangers, but also a need to dominate and own the narrative (e.g., leaving OpenAI, then founding xAI) [17:00–19:14].

  • Quote:

    “This is someone who both sincerely cares... but who also really hates the competition and really feels it's gotta be him. He's gotta be the savior.”
    —Ronan Farrow [18:34]

8. Influence of Science Fiction on Musk

• Musk’s worldview is heavily inspired by sci-fi—sometimes earnestly (Foundation Series as justification for space colonization), sometimes ironically (idolizing anti-hero figures from dystopian fiction and cyberpunk, missing their anti-capitalist critique) [20:37–25:12].

  • Quote:

    “It’s a little peculiar, right, to have him be so attached to that fiction and not get that it’s kind of skewering the very thing that he so embodies...”
    —Ronan Farrow [24:50]

9. Business Interests vs. Altruism: The Ukraine Starlink Example

• The Starlink system’s critical role in Ukraine is highlighted as a test case for conflict between Musk’s business and the public good. Initial support for Ukraine gave way to “ambivalence” under foreign and business pressures—including those from China and Russia, affecting Musk’s actions and even his public statements (“peace plan” that ceded territory to Russia) [25:52–29:07].

  • Quote:

    “Almost like a nation state... he has to balance a lot of equities and think about the places his businesses need to operate and the governments he needs to keep happy.”
    —Ronan Farrow [28:54]

10. Regulatory Impunity and Limits of Oversight

• Attempts to restrain Musk, such as by the FAA or DOD, rarely result in meaningful penalties—the response to unauthorized launches is only brief pauses, and government agencies become dependent on his services [30:33–33:10].

  • Quote:

    “We don’t really have great systems for holding giant corporations accountable... With Elon Musk’s companies, people haven’t come up with an answer yet.”
    —Ronan Farrow [32:20]

11. Personal Sensitivity Amid Power and Isolation

• Musk’s response to criticism remains highly emotional and sometimes retaliatory, illustrating the paradox of someone so influential yet so reactive to seemingly minor slights [33:36–34:23].

  • Quote:

    “He gets very worked up about, you know, sometimes picayune bits of discourse about him... cares very profoundly about how he’s perceived, but then also clearly has a lot of walls up...”
    —Ronan Farrow [33:45]

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On systemic failure:

  "If there's a villain in the piece, it's late stage capitalism..." [02:49, Farrow]

• On Musk’s personal transformation:

  "He also has become this super exposed pop culture figure, would isolate anyone..." [08:07, Farrow]

• On Musk's regulatory impunity:

  "He launched a rocket without FAA approval... and there was no fine." [31:07, Farrow]

• On sci-fi inspirations and their ironies:

  "It’s a little peculiar... not get that it’s kind of skewering the very thing that he so embodies." [24:50, Farrow]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Overview: [01:16–02:05]
• Systemic issues with concentrated wealth: [02:05–04:00]
• Musk’s links to the state and war in Ukraine: [05:54–07:13]
• Political radicalization and media alienation: [09:08–12:30]
• Tesla charging standards & government policy: [12:57–14:56]
• Business strategy in government vacuums: [15:01–16:58]
• AI ambition and OpenAI history: [17:00–19:14]
• Sci-fi inspirations (Foundation, Hitchhiker's Guide, Deus Ex): [20:37–25:12]
• Starlink in Ukraine and international pressures: [25:52–29:07]
• Regulatory system ineffectiveness: [30:33–33:10]
• Musk’s personal sensitivity to public perception: [33:36–34:23]

---

Conclusion

The episode delivers a thorough, nuanced analysis of Musk’s unique role in American (and global) power structures. Farrow and Foggatt do not merely dwell on Musk’s eccentricities, but address the unprecedented, systemic vulnerabilities that come with allowing a single, private individual to shape the trajectory of critical public functions—often beyond any meaningful oversight or restraint. The conversation is wide-ranging but grounded, moving smoothly between geopolitical consequences, tech policy, regulatory failures, and the psychological/personal factors that shape Musk’s approach to power.

Transcript

[A]

As summer draws to a close and the kids go back to school, I know I'm going to want to keep in touch with my kids at a price I can afford. Back to school. Shopping can be a hassle, but your phone plan shouldn't be. That's why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while other parents are sweating overage charges, I have a little bit more room in my budget for cool back to school threads. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Dish overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com newyorker that's. That's mintmobile.com New Yorker upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[B]

You're listening to the political scene. I'm Tavur Foggit and I'm a senior editor at the New Yorker. You probably know Ronan Farrow for his blockbuster reporting on Harvey Weinstein or on Black Cube, an Israeli spyware company. He's just published a major piece in the New Yorker looking at the world's richest man, Elon Musk. What's revealed is pretty shocking. The US Government has come to rely on Musk for essential services with major geopolitical importance. Rockets for NASA, the future of battery technology, even communications in Ukraine. Hi, Ronan. Thanks so much for being here.

[C]

Thanks for having me, Tyler.

[B]

So, since your first article for the New Yorker, which was about Harvey Weinstein, you've been reporting on abuses of power. What drew you to Elon Musk specifically?

[C]

I think that ultimately the thing with Elon Musk is he's perhaps the most overexposed person in the world. And it's actually quite challenging to find much that's truly new to say about him as an individual. I mean, there are colorful anecdotes, obviously, in this reporting. There's the fact that he was in consultations with Vladimir Putin that he subsequently denied in the midst of the Ukraine conflict. There's the questions about his psychopharmacology which have been out there in the press. And I talk to people who speak about his ketamine use in this piece. But this is ultimately all incremental. And what I found was most new and urgent in this was not even really about Elon as much as it's about the systems around him. Right. For what it's worth, I myself feel like if there's a villain in the piece, it's late stage capitalism. You know, it's. It's these vast economic systems and political trend lines that have led to a situation where a single mega billionaire of this type can fill the spaces that are going fallow at the hands of the state.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, one thing that I was trying to figure out while reading your piece, which was just incredible, by the way, so deeply reported and fascinating, was just. I mean, obviously Elon Musk poses a problem because he is both incredibly powerful and also quite erratic. But is it that combination that is so dangerous or is it actually just an issue that any one person has this power, you know, regardless of what their politics might be or you know, the kind of decisions that they make? Like, is it just, does he bother us because he's Elon Musk, or is it is the issue that he's kind of a one man monopoly?

[C]

Well, I think both things are true. Elon Musk is a singular challenge in this context. Right. Because in recent years especially we've seen this kind of eroticism from him. There have been these questions about his stability and we've actively seen his propensity to embrace misinformation and political views that aren't always aligned with American interests. Right. Like in this case of the consultations with the Kremlin. That's a serious issue in the eyes of national defense officials. At the same time, while I think scrutinizing Elon Musk's turn towards extremism and volatility is worthwhile in some ways, the bigger point is the other one you mentioned that any single person with this concentration of power, any example of hyper wealth eclipsing the normal checks and balances, should be, I think, a subject of concern. What do we do about a world where you can have a single person who becomes the arbiter of a war in this way, who becomes the only way the United States government can get astronauts launched from American soil into orbit without relying on Russian launches, who becomes an unavoidable component of any green energy plan because he controls 60% of the charging stations for electric vehicles in this country. What you do about the systems that lead to that, that's a tougher question. And that really has to do with the fundamental political, economic direction of the country.

[B]

So you mentioned some of the sectors that Musk has, you know, an insane amount of control over. I'm wondering which of these seems the most problematic to you. I mean, your piece opens with the war in Ukraine and Musk's role in that. Was that sort of like a standout example for you? Or do you think that, you know, sort of what's happening with Tesla and green energy is maybe going to end up having longer term stakes?

[C]

And then also that his acquisition of Twitter.

[B]

I almost forgot about Twitter. There are so many things.

[C]

Yeah. You know, I think there's probably a decent contingent out there that wishes they could forget about what's happened with Twitter of late. I think it's more instructive to look at the lessons out of the Twitter conflagration about his descent into a new and unpredictable kind of politics. So that's why that component of this piece isn't just another article which we've seen many of, about, you know, the chaos as he took over. Instead, I think it's just an opportunity to learn a little bit about what's happening to the guy right now and over the last few years. He told Kara Swisher a few years ago that he viewed himself as a centrist and like, socially, probably more liberal.

[B]

He donated to Hillary. Right. And voted against Trump.

[C]

Hillary. Right. All of which is, you know, a very, very far cry from his politics today. And it's interesting to look at the factors that seem to have led up to that, this kind of extreme wealth and power and fame. Right. Because he also has become this super exposed pop culture figure, would isolate anyone. I, in my own tiny way, feel like it's been a big challenge in my life to try to stay grounded and maintain good judgment as a lot of noise and public attention swirls around you. And he's dealing with all of that on a much vaster scale. Not only prominent, but also in control of so many things and, you know, surrounded by mostly people who are not going to raise questions or create accountability. And he's talked openly about his sadness and his loneliness and that connects up with these questions about his choices of medications and drugs and the Tesla board being concerned about his Ambien use and the ketamine stuff. He is human and complicated. And I'm not saying it's unfair when people walk away from that section on the way in which all of these factors have radicalized him in recent years and say, hey, this is someone that I want to condemn. Right. Like, some of those views may elicit that reaction. And I'm not taking issue with that. I just think at the same time, the important point here is this is what happens when you put a human being in this kind of a situation. So that's really how I tried to come at the Politics section about the last few years and the way in which the Twitter acquisition and what he's done with the platform fits into that.

[B]

I'm wondering if we can get more specific about the way in which Musk's Persona has kind of evolved over the years, because it seems like the New Yorker published a profile of him in 2009, and it really emphasized his awkwardness and the way in which he just was almost uniquely uncharismatic. It almost reminded me of the way that we talk about DeSantis now, but it seems like now he's a lot more Trumpy just in the way that he is, you know, kind of trolling people on the Internet. It seems like your theory is that this is basically him responding to, like, the public discourse surrounding him a little bit like. Or has, like, the power gone to his head, like, what is going on there? Because it seems like Elon Musk in 2009 is just so different from Elon Musk in 2023.

[C]

So different, yeah. And that. That was a tad friend piece in the New Yorker and. And reflects the tenor of the coverage of him at the time. Right. Where people were very excited by this visionary risk taking that runs through the origin stories of so many of his businesses, by the undeniable fact, which remains to this day, that he has pushed forward progress in a number of fields in a pretty meaningful way. Right. He shook loose inactivity in the space race. He pushed forward at a much faster pace than was otherwise happening. The electric car market. It's very understandable that he was a media darling in the wake of that. I think that the fact that the coverage has curdled is a significant component of his retreat into more isolation and more political extremism. There's a contrast which a lot of his friends that I talked to spoke of, where now when he does something, what he sees anyway as the liberal press, the mainstream press jumps all over him and criticizes him. And at the same time, you have this alt right Press. Right. He does podcasts with kind of Trumpy, like, fratty pranksters and stuff. That's the place that Elon these days likes to answer questions. Essentially, he feels liberals are being mean to him. And there's this other set that is willing to greet him as a hero and gas him up a lot more. And this manifests not just in his relationship with the media, but also in his political relationships. Right. He wasn't invited to a summit for electric car makers at the White House, and friends told me he was really wounded by that. He literally tweeted, and we quote this in the piece. You know, I've gotten a cold shoulder from the Biden administration. So I think that the confluence of the tenor of the media coverage and then also the fact that as he got more extreme, he became more Persona non grata in political circles. The criticism gets more pointed from, again, what he perceives to be the left that's created a cycle of a person who is, by his own admission, quite isolated, under a tremendous amount of stress, dealing with the rigors of fame, and in a situation where there's no one to question him as he sort of pulls farther and farther from mainstream discourse.

[B]

It's interesting that you mention, you know, him feeling like he got a cold shoulder from the Biden administration, because it also seems like in your piece that there are, you know, many examples of the Biden administration kind of facilitating his power grabs in a way. You know, I think one example, and you can probably describe it better than I can, you know, it seemed like his electric cars were going to have to adhere to a certain standard that the Biden administration was setting. And then basically he complained, right? And then they kind of let him do his own thing.

[C]

This is about charging technologies, you know, what kind of a charging plug that you use for your electric car, essentially. And Tesla got there first, built all of this charging infrastructure, and also created a proprietary standard that is, you know, unique to Tesla now. Now it's going to be shared with other competitors. He's, in a very canny way, brokered an alliance with the other electric carmakers, and they're going to start using the Tesla technology, too. But it's his. His charger, his standard of plug. And the Biden administration felt very strongly initially about pushing a universal standard that wasn't made by. By one company, you know, and that everyone would have free access to. Now, that's all very well and good, but this is also a case where it seems like the Tesla technology is better. You know, like he says he likes it better and he doesn't want it to switch over to a universal standard. And from the technical folks I've talked to, he's right. I think it's a better technology from everything I understand. So, you know, he, as is so often the case, represents a bulwark against government inaction or the slow pace of technological progress under government leadership. At the same time, it's another situation that's played into his hand and his unrestrained power, because now it's a situation where the Biden administration is going to give him access to billions of dollars in grants if he, as a compromise measure, just makes his Tesla stations also compatible with the universal standard. So the idea is, okay, well, you know, we gotta work with him, Right? He's an unavoidable part of this landscape. Let's just try to graft the other standard that we wanted onto. Onto the Tesla infrastructure. But it's just. It's a very small encapsulation of how unavoidable he is in multiple policy areas for usually better and worse.

[B]

Yeah. Is it also an example of him just being a good businessman?

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

In the piece you write that basically Musk sort of sought out these business opportunities in areas where the state has receded, which is something that enabled him to amass so much power. Was this, like, actively his business strategy, or is it just a coincidence almost? You know, SpaceX, for example, there weren't really NASA launches anymore. You know, he was able to innovate in that space. But did he know that SpaceX would lead to working with, you know, alongside NASA on space missions? Like, do you think that it was always kind of his goal to replace the government in a way, or do you think that just sort of happened as people became aware of his. His talents and skills?

[C]

Well, one. One sentiment that's echoed over and over again and in both quotes in the piece and in the wider conversations I had with people who have worked closely with Musk, is that he wants to be the one to deliver the solution. There is this element of ego to it, and I don't think that that is simple or the whole story. I think that Elon Musk is clearly and sincerely driven by the mission of saving humanity and advancing progress and making the world a better place. But again and again, both allies and enemies and people in his personal life and people in his work life talk about his controlling tendencies and him really feeling he has to be the one to do that. And I think the goal of supremacy comes up in a lot of these fields. You know, he, he, when he talks about his recently launched AI company, xai frames it in competitive terms. It's like, I'm going to be the third player in this field. And that's a perfect embodiment of the balance that I'm talking about. You know, he is someone who I think genuinely has fears about the future of AI and the dangers of the technology.

[B]

Didn't he fund OpenAI, though?

[C]

He did, and he had a falling out with the OpenAI folks and now spends a lot of time trashing OpenAI.

[B]

Classic Musk fashion, I guess.

[C]

Yeah, very much so. And I think there is a competitive saltiness, right, where he wants to reclaim his dominance in that world, as all of big tech is now sort of reeling and talking about this new AI future that's going to change everything. He wants in on that. So there's both the aspect of sincere investment in the issues and sincere curiosity that we see when he talks about AI and his fears about it. This was articulated amongst other places in a group letter that he signed onto from tech leaders saying, you know, this is dangerous tech, and calling for a pause in the development of certain levels of advanced AI. And, you know, perfect illustration. While that pause was playing out, he was secretly building his new AI company. Right. So this is someone who both sincerely cares. I don't doubt that he espoused those views and had those fears that are in that letter, but who also really hates the competition and really feels it's gotta be him. He's gotta be the savior. And Reid Hoffman, who was also involved in those OpenAI days, is on the record in this piece saying, particularly in this new field, we should be concerned about who the leaders are and what their balance of altruism and personal ambition might be, because we're creating AI in our own image. And we've already seen out there in the world how quickly early chatbot technologies became racist and sexist. Right. And so it makes sense that he is a particular subject of concern for people in this particular field, where the end results may well in some ways reflect the people with a hand at the tiller in these early days.

[B]

We'll have more with Ronan Farrow on Elon Musk on the political scene from the New Yorker in just a minute.

[D]

What the hell is going on right now and why is it happening like this At Wired? We're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis, and maybe you are, too, Katie. I'm Katie Drummond, the global Editorial Director of Wired, and I'm hosting our New podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll sit down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.

[C]

I want a shark that.

[D]

That eats the Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid.

[C]

So in a lot of ways, I try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online. To the best of my ability, every.

[D]

Week we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times. Meaning and context. True or false? You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me, one day, at some point, as of yet undefined, in the future, you will die.

[C]

False.

[D]

Tell me more. Listen to the Big Interview right now in the same place you find WIRED's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

So I'm interested in the kinds of things that have been driving Musk's worldview. In your piece, you talk about his love of sci fi. Do you think that he's trying to build a world that is kind of like that of the books that he read when he was younger? I guess. How do you connect sort of his, like, childhood interests with his, you know, current business strategies?

[C]

Well, some of it is really straightforward, like Asimov's foundation series, which is about a society grappling with the implications of accurately predicting when that society is going to end. And he's talked about that a lot in the context of his mission to, you know, get humanity off of this Earth and to Mars. Then there are these examples where his attachment to the work and the reading he seems to pull from the work is almost ironic on some level. Like, he loves Douglas Adams and, you know, I love Douglas Adams. He and I conclude very different things about Douglas Adams worldview. Right. Adams was very anti wealth. There's a lot of satirical depictions of hyper wealth in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that show us what a firebrand Douglas Adams was and how anti establishment he was and how anti corporate and really, like, anti capitalist he was. You know, you have these descriptions of, like, rich assholes smuggling exotic parakeets to use them as cocktail garnishes, even though they taste disgusting, but they're status symbols. There's like, this stuff is all over the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. You have the Earth literally getting bulldozed to make way for, like, a space transit route. And the way Elon Musk talks about Douglas Adams and his work is much more just like what A cool future Douglas Adams portrayed, you know, like, he's not very similar to like the mild mannered protagonist of that series. He's much more in line with, you know, Zaphod Beeblebrox is the like, sort of anti hero, playboy narcissist character who briefly becomes the president of the galaxy. Similarly, he loves Deus Ex, the video game, and it's also one of my favorite games. I mean, he has great taste in genre material. Deus Ex is a really sophisticated, cerebral game to pick as your favorite game. And when I say favorite game, I mean he's made his Twitter profile at the time, before it was called X. The protagonist of that series, he posted a picture of his bedside table with a replica gun from that series. So he really, he cares a lot. But it's another situation where it's in this tradition of anti establishment, anti capitalist sci fi, like cyberpunk is really full of those themes. And Deus Ex is this dystopian depiction of a hyper corporatized future where the villain is a multidisciplinary tech mogul genius who launches rockets and is on the COVID of business magazines and is the richest man in the. And you see where this is going. Right? So there was a lot of discourse around him changing his profile to the hero of this series, where people kind of noted the irony. Right. Like he is. If you read descriptions of this villain in the Original DeusEx Bob page, it predicts the rise of Elon Musk. It's a game about a world where we've given too much power to corporations and to hyper, hyper wealthy moguls. And so it's a little peculiar, right, to have him be so attached to that fiction and not get that it's kind of skewering the very thing that he so embodies and he manages to pull other things from it. Like when he made his avatar that character, he also was tweeting about alluding to the fact that the first game's plot is about a manufactured plague to control the masses. And so he was taking out of it what he wanted to at the time, which is like he's in a Covid denial phase. But there's a real lack of scrutiny about the. About the deeper themes.

[B]

That's incredible.

[C]

Yeah, and God bless the New Yorker for letting me put protracted descriptions of the plots of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Deus Ex in this profile. I hope I made it relatively accessible.

[B]

You did. I honestly feel like they're the key to kind of Understanding Musk, I think they are too.

[C]

And, you know, I think he does view himself as something of an end times savior.

[B]

Yeah, there's definitely this, at least in the discourse, this sort of like altruistic streak. And I'm curious, I mean, what happens when like the public interest and his own business interests are at odds, like, which one usually wins out?

[C]

Well, we've seen that tension play out in the Ukraine anecdote. That's one reason why I included it. Shortly after the Russian invasion of Ukraine last year, the Ukrainians in Silicon Valley, in communication with Ukrainians on the ground who were dealing with Russian bombardment, including of their digital infrastructure, came up with the idea of, okay, we're going to need Internet access for all manner of activities, right? For civilian activities, for hospitals, but also for organizing troops. And we're going to need a system that can withstand this onslaught. And elon Musk through SpaceX, has a technology called Starlink. They're mobile satellite systems. You just point it at the sky and they connect to Musk's satellites and you get Internet access. And each one is a self sufficient unit. So you would need a network of them across the country. But it meant that Russia couldn't take out their Internet access with one attack. And over the ensuing months, Elon Musk enthusiastically supported the effort to get a lot of Starlink units to Ukraine. And then as this technology became the backbone of Ukrainian infrastructure, including on the battlefield, started to signal a lot of misgivings both about his technology being used for warfare in principle, this is how he often talks about it, and also, it seems, according to the interpretation of people who have had conversations with him about this that are more frank because of the kind of pragmatic interests he has in the world. He does a lot of business in China. He relies on their goodwill. China has backed Russia in the Ukraine conflict. He has said publicly that the Chinese have applied pressure to him and made known their displeasure with him giving these Starlink units and supporting the Ukrainian cause. And we know from the reporting in this piece, despite his denials that he spoke to Vladimir Putin about the conflict. So you see a situation where his view turns towards something more pro Russia. He tweets a peace plan that cedes the territory Russia wants in many cases and starts arguing that a lot of eastern Ukraine is more pro Russia. And I think that kind of answers your question through an illustration. Right? I think the answer is unpredictable. I think he has a mix of all of these incentives in the world, almost like a nation state. Right. And he is greeted and treated like a nation state. In some ways, it looks very much like diplomacy. And foreign countries send delegations to court his business and get his factories to come to their countries. And he has to balance a lot of equities and think about the places his businesses need to operate and the governments he needs to keep happy.

[B]

Yeah. I guess it's just like he has a net worth of $217 billion. Right. And so it seems like he could afford to, you know, piss a couple nations off, you know, by helping the Ukrainians.

[C]

Well, and I think the example shows that he's certainly willing to piss off the United States government.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you're making a fair point, right. That he should maybe be even more an island and resistant to outside pressure. I think the answer is complicated. And somewhere in between, no matter how much money he has, as the richest man in the world currently, he is ultimately somewhat beholden to needing to operate factories in physical places with real populations of people. Right. He had a big fight with California regulators when they did the COVID shutdowns. That's another story I talk about.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

And that clearly really got to him and infuriated him that he couldn't keep one of his most productive factories open. So there are these ways in which Elon Musk, despite all this power, still exists in the world. Right. And I think the piece captures a moment where people are in government, especially grappling with, okay, how do we use those levers to make sure this isn't totally a runaway train?

[B]

Have you seen any good attempts from the US Government to use those levers? Or are there any ideas as to how to kind of rein him in a little bit?

[C]

I think right now, most of the stories point to the opposite, that the efforts to rein him in have had somewhat limited success. I mean, the Ukraine situation ended with the Pentagon doing a deal with him, apparently a very favorable one to him financially, where they made the Starlink situation In Ukraine a U.S. defense contract.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Now you look at an example like Elon Musk launching a rocket without FAA approval, which is another story that we tell in this piece. That's a case where they really didn't know what to do afterwards. And I talked to the FAA official who was in charge of this decision, and he made the argument, look, the guy's so rich, like a fine just doesn't hurt a company that he's running. You know, you can take or leave that argument, but they didn't fine him afterwards. And this was a pretty stark case. Like the main point of contact at the FAA was telling him, you do not have permission to launch. And then Elon was there on site and they launched. And, you know, they never concluded formally what happened or how culpable he was. But those are the facts. That's what happened. And there was no fine. They did ground SpaceX launches for a couple of months. The regulators felt that would be the most frustrating thing to impose on a company that is so oriented around speed and iteration and innovation. But it's not that long a grounding period. So all of that just goes to a problem that's much bigger and wider than Elon Musk, which is we don't do a lot of corporate veil piercing in this country. We don't really have great systems for holding giant corporations accountable. Mostly there is not an existential threat from any kind of regulatory penalty. And you have to then hunt for the rare exceptions, like is Big Tobacco or Big Oil materially affected and incentivized by activist class action suits, where the numbers get so big potentially that you can maybe see some changes in the posture of a company. I think with Elon Musk's companies, people haven't come up with an answer yet.

[B]

Yeah, it seems like the only thing that really gets to him or has gotten to him so far is some of the online discourse. I wonder what it would do to Elon Musk if he did indeed lose to Mark Zuckerberg in a cage, as has been discussed. Not that that would provide any kind of check and balance, but if that would change the way in which he is so beloved by the right and it would just change his public image in a way.

[C]

Yeah, he is image conscious. You know, he gets very worked up about, you know, sometimes picayune bits of discourse about him. He gets very kind of amped up and retaliatory at times in his relationships with some journalists where you would think like a guy of his stature would maybe play it a little cooler. So what you say is true, that it's not like there's no way in. It's just sort of tricky to anticipate what's actually going to get through because of the degree of isolation that we talked about. You know, he is someone who erratically cares very profoundly about how he's perceived, but then also clearly has a lot of walls up and a lot of ability to not listen when he wants that.

[B]

Well, thank you so much, Ronan.

[C]

I really appreciate it. It's a thoughtful conversation about a troubling, important set of dynamics.

[B]

Ronan Farrow is an investigative reporter and a contributing writer to the New Yorker. This has been the political story scene from the New Yorker. I'm Tyler Foggit. The show is produced by Michelle Moses with support from Sidney Cobb. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Enjoy the rest of your week and we'll see you next Wednesday.

[C]

Right now, we are living through some.

[B]

Of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever.

[C]

David Remnick and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to.

[B]

Make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson.

[C]

Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Charlamagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts from prx.