The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Title: Sally Yates v. Donald Trump
Date: May 19, 2017
Participants: Dorothy Wickenden (Host), Ryan Lizza (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

Overview

This episode explores former Acting Attorney General Sally Yates’s pivotal role at the height of two key crises early in the Trump administration: the Michael Flynn investigation and the so-called "travel ban." Through an extensive interview with Ryan Lizza, the podcast details Yates’s decisions, her reasoning, the constitutional stakes, and the fallout, providing a window into the legal and ethical turmoil at the Justice Department and the White House.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sally Yates’s Testimony and Her Stand on the Travel Ban

• The podcast opens with a recap of Sally Yates’s recent testimony before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on her refusal to enforce President Trump’s executive order (the travel ban).
• Ryan Lizza breaks down Yates’s rationale: her primary concern was not statutory, but constitutional—centered on First Amendment (Establishment Clause) violations and due process breaches.

  “My concern was not an INA concern here. It rather was a constitutional concern whether or not this, the executive order here, violated the Constitution, specifically with the Establishment Clause and equal protection and due process.”
  — Sally Yates (Paraphrased by Ryan Lizza), [02:25]

2. The Michael Flynn Investigation

• Yates was the first to truly confront the Flynn matter, inheriting it from her time as Deputy AG in the Obama administration and escalating it after Trump’s inauguration.

• Flynn’s intercepted call with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak about sanctions alarmed the FBI and Justice Department, potentially implicating the Logan Act.

• Upon discovering Flynn’s possible lies to the White House and Vice President Pence, Yates decided to inform the White House counsel about the counterintelligence risk Flynn posed, prioritizing the national security threat.

  “She and the FBI have a decision to make. What's more important, telling the White House that their national security adviser is compromised or preserving the FBI's investigation of Flynn? And so they try and do both.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [08:26]

• White House Counsel Don McGahn took the issue seriously, but initially seemed dismissive about why the Justice Department would care if Flynn had lied to the Vice President.

  “It's not about the lying, it's about the potential compromise.”
  — Sally Yates (Paraphrased), reported by Ryan Lizza, [11:44]

3. Chaos and Coordination in the White House

• The travel ban was released just hours after Yates’s crucial meeting with McGahn—without her knowledge or involvement—underscoring White House secrecy and lack of communication.
• Some DOJ lawyers were reportedly told not to inform her about the executive order, illuminating the “astonishingly amateurish” approach of the fledgling Trump administration.

  “...they didn't have their own attorney general in place.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [16:38]

4. Yates’s Legal and Moral Reasoning on the Travel Ban

• Yates spent the weekend analyzing legal challenges to the travel ban, identifying key constitutional problems:
  • Establishment Clause: The executive order privileged Christians and was widely believed (including through Trump’s own statements) to be a ban on Muslims.
  • Due Process: Denial of entry and rights to lawful permanent residents and valid visa holders.
• Yates convened a meeting at DOJ and ultimately decided not to resign but to direct that DOJ lawyers not defend the ban, refusing to “go into court lying and saying that this isn’t about religion.”

  “She decided that she didn't want to resign because it would just be throwing it in someone else's lap and that she was going to take a stand...”
  — Ryan Lizza, [19:00]

5. Aftermath: Yates’s Firing and Legacy

• Yates was fired hours after her decision, ending her 27-year DOJ career—receiving the official notice via hand-delivered letter after email difficulties.

  “He walks down the hall to her office, knocks, and he's sort of a polite Southern guy, calls her ma'am and says, ma'am, I have a letter from the president. And she looks at it and realizes that...her 27 years in the Department of Justice are over.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [21:18]

• The episode situates her firing amidst the subsequent Comey firing, Trump’s dubious official explanations, and ongoing revelations about the administration’s legal woes.

6. The Pence Question

• Discussion turns to Mike Pence – his possible exposure and denials about Flynn’s lobbying work and Russia ties, with speculation on what he knew as head of the transition team.

7. Yates’s Political Future

• Despite a social media groundswell and enthusiasm among Georgia Democrats, Yates tells Lizza unequivocally that she will not run for governor in 2018 or seek elective office (at least for the foreseeable future).

  “She told me she was absolutely ruling it out. There was no chance she would do it...she's Sherman-esque in ruling it out.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [25:07]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Yates on Her Refusal:
  “It’s not constitutional. And I don’t want you all going into court lying and saying that this isn’t about religion.”
  — Sally Yates (as reported by Ryan Lizza), [19:00]

• White House Secrecy:
  “She’s literally sitting in the White House counsel’s office an hour before the travel ban comes down, and he doesn’t mention it.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [13:25]

• On DOJ Independence:
  “She did this as a lifelong or at least 27 year long Justice Department employee, and she did not want those lawyers going in and lying to the court.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [19:29]

• About the ‘Resistance’ status:
  “She’s the face of the opposition now, the face of the hashtag resistance.”
  — Ryan Lizza, [25:07]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:16] Dorothy Wickenden introduces topic (Sally Yates, her Senate testimony, and firing)
• [02:08] Yates’s constitutional concerns with the travel ban
• [05:26] How Flynn’s contact with Kislyak was detected and investigated
• [08:26] FBI interview of Flynn and Yates’s actions post-interview
• [10:53] White House counsel Don McGahn’s response to being told about Flynn
• [13:21] The travel ban issue lands on Yates’s desk
• [15:10] Yates’s constitutional reasoning and decision process
• [19:29] The climactic decision: Not to defend the ban and not to resign
• [21:18] Delivery and content of Yates’s firing letter
• [23:02] Comey’s firing and the repercussions
• [25:00] Yates’s view on political office and her current public role

Tone & Presentation

• The conversation is measured, analytical, and occasionally wry, mirroring The New Yorker’s reputation for depth and nuance.
• The storytelling is direct but context-rich, often pausing to lay out legal, political, and procedural complexities for listeners.
• Panels display clear admiration for Yates’s independence and the magnitude of her decisions.

Conclusion

This episode offers a thorough, behind-the-scenes account of Sally Yates’s historic final days at the DOJ, exposing the legal, ethical, and practical upheaval inside the Trump White House. Through careful narration and direct reporting, it illuminates the stakes of constitutional governance and institutional independence in moments of national crisis—and highlights how one official’s stand became a symbol of legal resistance for a generation.