Scaramucci's Scare Tactics

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode Title: Scaramucci's Scare Tactics
Date: July 28, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guest: Ryan Lizza (Staff Writer, The New Yorker & On-air Contributor, CNN)

---

Overview

This episode dives into the tumult and chaos engulfing the Trump White House, highlighted by Anthony Scaramucci’s explosive behavior in his early days as Communications Director. Dorothy Wickenden and Ryan Lizza unpack Lizza’s recent headline-grabbing interaction with Scaramucci, the White House's obsession with loyalty, infighting among senior staffers, the President’s attacks on Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and the Republican Party's increasingly fraught relationship with Trump, especially after the Senate’s dramatic defeat of the healthcare bill.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scaramucci’s Call to Ryan Lizza and Fallout

• The Call: Scaramucci phoned Ryan Lizza, demanding the source for a tweet and unleashed a profanity-laced tirade against Reince Priebus, accusing him of leaking and other misdeeds. This was a rare, on-the-record, “no ground rules” moment for a reporter.
  • Quote: “You don't get this kind of on the record, no ground rules call with someone just unloading.” (Ryan Lizza, 03:05)
  • Lizza was struck by Scaramucci’s ignorance about how financial disclosures work (they’re public records), paranoia, and how quickly he assumed Priebus was an enemy.
  • Memorable Line: “He’s threatening to kill all the leakers, as he put it in one of the quieter parts of the exchange.” (Dorothy Wickenden, 02:58)

2. Scaramucci’s Channeling of Trump

• Scaramucci’s style and behavior openly mirror Trump’s—“let Trump be Trump,” or, as Lizza puts it, “let Scaramucci be Trump” (04:32).
• The appointment deepens existing White House divisions, adding “another tribe into a multi-front civil war.” (Ryan Lizza, 05:25)
• Rather than focusing on policy or communications strategy, Scaramucci prioritizes fighting internal “turf wars.”

3. The White House’s Obsession with Loyalty

• Trump’s demand for absolute loyalty drives chaos and dysfunction, illustrated by Scaramucci’s public fawning and a prior Cabinet meeting where staff pledged fealty.
  • Quote: “Trump is fixated on loyalty. This is one thing we saw this week almost to the exclusion of anything else.” (Dorothy Wickenden, 05:47)
• Wickenden points out that this obsession is unfolding during a disastrous week for Trump, with the healthcare bill collapse and looming sanctions.

4. Dysfunction and Breakdown of Governance

• Lizza notes that instead of stabilizing, the White House has become “more dysfunctional, more chaotic, more unable to do much as time has gone on.” (06:52)
• Public spats, like Scaramucci calling the FBI on Reince Priebus, illustrate a worsening climate.
  • Quote: “One of them literally telling me on the record that he called the FBI on his opponent in the White House.” (Ryan Lizza, 07:00)

5. Trump’s Attacks on Jeff Sessions

• Trump has harshly and publicly criticized Attorney General Sessions, aiming to exert control over the Russia investigation.
• Lizza observes that Trump’s goal is to undermine the rule of law, confusing his own interests with those of the presidency.
  • Quote: “What he's doing here is trying to undermine the rule of law. I don't think there's any other way to describe it.” (Ryan Lizza, 09:54)
• Firing Sessions would likely backfire, as the Senate has shown strong support for Sessions, and replacing him would be extraordinarily difficult.

6. Russia, Mueller, and the Leak Obsession

• Trump’s fixation on leaks blurs legal distinctions and serves as a distraction from more pressing legislative and political failures.
  • Quote: “Leaks in general, and they tend to just paper over the differences between an illegal leak… and leaks that are… just gossip.” (Ryan Lizza, 11:50)
• The ultimate target for Trump seems to be removing Robert Mueller, but attacking Sessions doesn’t actually help accomplish that.

7. Strained GOP-White House Relations & Staff Departures

• The departure of Sean Spicer and the potential axing of Priebus threaten to leave virtually no senior officials with deep Republican Party ties other than VP Pence.
• Trump’s growing preference for loyalists over experienced Washington insiders undermines his own legislative agenda.
  • Quote: “The more they fill the White House with people like Anthony Scaramucci… the less they fill it with people who at least have some basic Washington experience.” (Ryan Lizza, 13:39)

8. Mike Pence’s Loyalty and Future

• Pence is described as unusually loyal to Trump, sometimes sycophantic, despite personal differences, likely with an eye towards his own political ambitions.
  • Quote: “Just a sort of, you know, frankly, kind of strange Trump sycophant…” (Ryan Lizza, 14:33)
• Wickenden notes Pence’s subtle distance from Trump's most egregious scandals.

9. The President’s Power to Pardon & Constitutional Crisis

• Amidst the chaos, Trump asserted his power to pardon anyone, including himself—a historically unprecedented step.
  • Quote: “The idea that the president would assert that he does have that power or would leak out that his legal advisors are looking into it… it just sort of makes you look guilty to begin with.” (Ryan Lizza, 15:40)

10. The GOP at a Crossroads

• Defeat of the healthcare bill signals a potential breaking point between Trump and Congressional Republicans.
• Lizza argues Trump’s lack of constructive involvement has made things worse for the party, leading to questions about leadership and future collaboration.
  • Quote: “Trump is not an asset in passing complicated legislation and he's generally been a liability.” (Ryan Lizza, 16:51)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ryan Lizza (01:55): “As you know from the Italian expression, the fish stinks from the head down. But I can tell you two fish that don't stink, okay? And that's me and the President.”
• Dorothy Wickenden (05:47): “Trump is fixated on loyalty. This is… happening in this incredible week for the President.”
• Ryan Lizza (09:54): “What he's doing here is trying to undermine the rule of law. I don't think there's any other way to describe it.”
• Ryan Lizza (15:40): “The idea that the president would assert that he does have that power or would leak out that his legal advisors are looking into it… it just sort of makes you look guilty to begin with.”
• Ryan Lizza (16:51): “Trump is not an asset in passing complicated legislation and he's generally been a liability.”

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:16 — Episode begins, context for Scaramucci’s tirade
• 01:55 — Lizza recounts Scaramucci’s on-air, Trump-imitating defense
• 03:10 — Lizza highlights Scaramucci’s ignorance and extraordinary candor
• 04:32 — Comparing Trump and Scaramucci, “let Trump be Trump” philosophy
• 05:47 — Trump’s obsession with staff loyalty
• 06:52 — Lizza laments White House dysfunction
• 07:20 — Discussion moves to Trump’s targeting of Sessions and Mueller
• 09:39 — Lizza explains Trump’s motives behind attacks on Sessions
• 11:48 — The administration’s fixation on leaks
• 13:17 — The risk of losing senior Republicans in the administration
• 14:29 — Analysis of Mike Pence’s loyalty
• 15:36 — Trump’s claim of presidential pardoning power
• 16:30 — Impact of healthcare defeat on GOP-Trump relationship

---

Tone & Style

• The conversation is lightly irreverent, deeply knowledgeable, and occasionally dryly humorous.
• Both speakers maintain a tone of incredulity at the dysfunction and spectacle, but ground their insights in seasoned political reportage.

---

Concluding Thoughts

This episode encapsulates a turning point in the Trump administration marked by internecine warfare, loyalty tests, and headline-generating chaos. It offers unique first-hand insights into the mechanics and consequences of White House dysfunction, raises concerns about the erosion of rule of law, and foreshadows intensifying strains between the presidency and the Republican establishment. For listeners seeking context for the wild swings of summer 2017—and the significance of Scaramucci’s short but spectacular White House tenure—this episode provides essential clarity and colorful detail.

Transcript

[Asma Khalid]

As summer draws to a close and the kids go back to school, I know I'm going to want to keep in touch with my kids at a price I can afford. Back to school Shopping can be a hassle, but your phone plan shouldn't be. That's why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while other parents are sweating overage charges, I have a little bit more room in my budget for cool back to school threads. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Dish overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com newyorker that's that's mintmobile.com New Yorker upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the political scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about politics. It's Friday, July 28th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. On Wednesday, New Yorker staff writer Ryan Lissa got an angry phone call from Anthony Scaramucci, Trump's new communications director. Scaramucci demanded to know Lissa's White House source for an innocuous tweet, and when Ryan refused, he launched into an obscenity filled tirade against Reince Priebus, Trump's chief of staff, whom Scaramucci accused of felony level leaking. The next morning, Scaramucci joined Ryan on cnn.

[Ryan Lizza]

As you know from the Italian expression, the fish stinks from the head down. But I can tell you two fish that don't stink, okay? And that's me and the President. I don't like the activity that's going on in the White House. I don't like what they're doing to my friend. I don't like what they're doing to the President of the United States or their fellow colleagues in the West Wing.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Ryan, Lizza joins me to talk about his conversation with Scaramucci and about a president whose obsession with loyalty is wreaking havoc on his administration. Ryan, welcome.

[Ryan Lizza]

Thank you. That was a good summary of a complicated set of events.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Yeah, well, we'll try to keep it relatively simple. This is just when you thought it couldn't get any stranger. It got a lot stranger this week. Your story was so over the top that some people thought it was a satire. I don't know if you saw some.

[Ryan Lizza]

Of those tweets I heard that people thought it was the shouts and murmurs.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Yes. And then our colleague David Graham tweeted that you got better lines in that one conversation than he's gotten in a lifetime of reporting.

[Ryan Lizza]

That is not true. As one of my favorite reporters at the New Yorker, David Granny.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

So Scaramucci has only been in that job for a week, but he's threatening to kill all the leakers, as he put it in one of the quieter parts of the exchange. What was most remarkable to you about this conversation?

[Ryan Lizza]

A couple of things. One, he was accusing the chief of staff of leaking his financial disclosure information to Politico, when in fact, Politico obtained this information through just normal public channels. It's a public document. And so the level of stupidity and paranoia to see an article pop up in Politico, that's just a standard article that every White House employee who's of significance usually gets a story about what's in their financial disclosure, especially if it's kind of complicated like Scaramucci's. And then to assume the worst that it was the work of the chief of staff, his rival in the White House, I found that sort of shocking in its naivete. And then, you know, the second thing was, you know, usually as a reporter, you don't get this kind of on the record, no ground rules call with someone just unloading. And I guess the third thing I would say that would surprise me is his colorful use of the F word and various other words.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

One of the remarkable things is he seemed so clearly to be taking a page from. From his boss's book, almost as though Trump had sent him directly out there to say exactly what Trump himself would say if he could.

[Ryan Lizza]

He's definitely channels Trump. His public presentation is like Trump. You know, there's always been this two views in the Trump world that, one, you have to contain Trump and you have to do everything you can to manage him and sand down his excesses. And the other view, which I guess the cliche is, you know, let Trump be Trump. Scaramucci is very much in the let Trump be Trump. I mean, you might even say he's in the let Scaramucci be Trump. I've been trying to figure out for a while now that why did Reince, previous the Chief of staff, not want this guy in the White House? And the explanation that's come back to me from people who are close to Reince is that he's too generous in indulging Trump's worst habits. It's such a bizarre debate to be having. Right. This isn't an ideological debate. They're not debating over, you know, different versions of healthcare. They're debating over how you deal with this volcanic president. I mean, everyone could have predicted that you were going to get chaos by adding yet another strong willed character at the top of a White House that is already filled with them. And you're just basically adding another tribe into a multi front civil war. Right.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Trump is fixated on loyalty. This is one thing we saw this week almost to the exclusion of anything else. It reminded me of that bizarre Cabinet meeting a few weeks ago when everybody was basically forced to pledge fealty to the President. And then we had over this past weekend, Scaramucci's really obsequious fawning on all the news shows about how much he loves the President. And all of this is happening in this incredible week for the President when, you know, the healthcare bill is going down, they've got the sanctions bill that is going to be presented to Trump very soon for his signature, which he opposes.

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah. And you expect that the communications director at the White House would have a communications plan to help the President pass his signature legislative item, which is this health care bill. And of course, we didn't see any of that. We saw Scaramucci just sort of fighting turf wars. So I kind, I know people have criticized me for saying this, but I sort of thought that the White House would get slightly less dysfunctional and chaotic as time went on, that, you know, people would actually just learn their job. The people who are bad at their jobs would wash out. But this White House has actually gotten more dysfunctional, more chaotic, more unable to do much as time has gone on. With this week probably being the worst week since Trump started the healthcare bill failing. And just the open public warfare between senior strategists. And one of them literally telling me on the record that he called the FBI on his opponent in the White House.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Now that you mentioned the FBI, I want to go back to the beginning of the week where all of this started, which was Trump's brutal attacks on his own Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, who has been, by the way, one of his most loyal supporters and has been implementing quite effectively the agenda that he promised to implement. And then there was the interview with the New York Times where Trump threatened the special counsel, Robert Mueller, saying that if Mueller's investigation began, to look at his family finances, he would say that was a violation, whatever that means.

[Ryan Lizza]

We didn't explain this yet, but what Scaramucci did after he got off the phone with me is he tweeted publicly that he was calling the Justice Department and he put Reince, the chief of staff's, Twitter handle, in the tweet. Well, where did he get that idea to take a war within the administration? Public. Right. The president's been doing this with Jeff Sessions for a week.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Trump apparently is pleased with the Mooch's performance.

[Ryan Lizza]

You know, some people were joking with me yesterday after the piece came out. They said, oh, my God, do you think Scaramucci is going to get fired? I said, well, he's either going to get fired or promoted. Who knows with this president? It was so, so unusual, is that there obviously is friction between senior staffers in every White House. In this White House, the friction is at a much, much crazier level. And it all spills out into public. Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Charlamagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

I wanted to ask you why you thought Trump decided to go after Sessions in such a particularly humiliating way. On many different fronts. It does seem as though it all keeps coming back to the Department of Justice and the Russia investigation. You wrote about Sally Yates. At that moment, there was James Comey. He keeps trying to get the Russia investigation off his back, but he keeps coming back to it.

[Ryan Lizza]

So the simple explanation seems to be that he wants to do everything he can to take control of the Russia investigation and that he believed by appointing a loyalist like Jeff Sessions that that would accomplish that task. And that once Sessions recused himself from the Russia investigation, Trump sort of realized that he didn't have anyone over there at the Department of Justice to help him out I mean, first of all, we should point out that what he's doing here is trying to undermine the rule of law. I don't think there's any other way to describe it. The president is not supposed to be meddling in the Department of Justice to take control of investigations of himself. But I also think he's. From his own political perspective, he's making a terrible mistake lately. He tried this once before when he fired James Comey, and all the things that happened after the firing of James Comey made things worse for Trump. Similarly, if he actually fired Sessions, or if Sessions resigned, which is the only kind of rational goal that he seems to have in mind by humiliating him, what would happen then? It would be very difficult to find anyone. That one would take the job where two could actually be confirmed. And in the meantime, this guy, Rod Rosenstein, would be elevated to acting Attorney general. And he has shown a certain degree of independence from Trump. And then absent Sessions being fired or resigning, the lesson for Sessions here is going to be that he needs to stay more independent from the White House and that a lot of Republicans in the Senate are backing him up on that.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

There are more than a dozen senators at last count, including Mitch McConnell, the majority leader, have defended Sessions, their former colleague.

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah, for the first time, it really is the first time where Republic and Congress really did step up and say, no, this is too far, and sort of have Sessions back.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And by the way, the ultimate goal here seems to be to get rid of Mueller.

[Ryan Lizza]

But the strange thing is, he's going after Sessions. It's not even he's got the wrong person because Mueller's boss is the deputy, Rod Rosenstein.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Earlier in the week, Sessions seemed to be throwing a SOP to Trump saying he would launch an investigation into intelligence leaks. So there we go again with the leaks. But what's he talking about there?

[Ryan Lizza]

Look, this is an obsession for the Trump administration. Leaks in general, and they tend to just paper over the differences between an illegal leak, you know, something classified information being leaked, which is illegal, and leaks that are just completely innocuous leaks that are mount to, frankly, just gossip. They sort of conflate all those as illegal leaks and things that need to be stopped. But Trump has railed against this. He's asked the attorney general publicly to start prosecuting illegal leaks. And as you pointed out, it looks like Sessions decided to do that. And I'm sure Sessions himself, I think he sees eye to eye with Trump on that. One of the things that this war between Sessions and Trump has exposed is and I don't think this is. Nobody will be shocked by this if you paid close attention to Trump. But when it comes to what Trump really cares about, protecting himself personally versus protecting the agenda he ran on, there's no contest between the two of those things. He's willing to embarrass the guy that represents Trumpism, him more than anyone else in the Republican Party, in order to save his own skin here, or at least he thinks he might be saving his own skin.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

One of the things that's very unclear is that how the White House's relationship with the Republicans in Congress is going to play out in coming months. And it struck me that Sean Spicer's resignation marked the departure of one of the only senior officials in the White House tied to the Republican Party. And if Priebus goes, that leaves only the Vice president, Mike Pence.

[Ryan Lizza]

I mean, what they need now, if they actually care about their legislative agenda, are people that want to respect it up in Congress and that no Congress. I mean, the health care vote this week just shows that the White House has no influence on the Hill. And when Trump does try and intervene, it backfires. I mean, one of the last things John McCain did early Friday morning before he voted to deliver the death knell to Trumpcare, is he took a call from the president, and it had no impact. You know, I talked actually this morning to a former Trump aide who said, what do you think was driving John McCain? And he said, oh, it's clear he hates Trump, and he was happy to be the person that delivered the final blow to something that was important to him. The more they fill the White House with people like Anthony Scaramucci, and the less they fill it with people who at least have some basic Washington experience. I mean, I don't want to like, you know, Reince Priebus and Sean Spicer are not some towering figures of management expertise and media skills, but in this climate, they represent the adults in the room. And Trump seems to want to go in the opposite direction.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And Mike Pence thus far has been nothing if not a loyalist.

[Ryan Lizza]

A loyalist. Just a sort of, you know, frankly, kind of strange Trump sycophant who is nothing like Trump personally, but is just sort of worshipful of him in public.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

But also trying to distance himself from the biggest embarrassments. Clearly with his own future in mind.

[Ryan Lizza]

You just wonder what he thinks the end game is. Maybe Trump will be impeached. Maybe they will have a successful two terms and he'll run for president. It's strange to watch him sort of be errand boy for Trump who indulges his ego. And I remember covering Mike Pence years ago when he was a member of Congress. And I don't really recognize the current version of him.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

This all seems likely to play out sooner or later in really a dramatic test of how far the president will go in exerting his power and how willing the Republican Congress will be to go along with him. And Trump recently asserted his constitutional power to pardon anyone, including himself.

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah, another kind of amazing moment that has sort of been lost in the crush of events this week. I guess there is some legal, scholarly debate about whether the President has that power. The Supreme Court has never actually ruled on it, but the idea that the president would assert that he does have that power or would leak out that his legal advisors are looking into it. Well, why? Nobody has actually accused you of any crimes. Nobody has actually accused any of your advisors of any crimes despite the long running FBI investigation. So it just sort of makes you look guilty to begin with. This is the kind of thing that if Obama had asserted it would be an article of impeachment drawn up against him on it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Ryan, do you think we've reached some kind of breaking point between Trump and the Republican Party on Capitol Hill and what do we make of this catastrophe with the health care bill?

[Ryan Lizza]

Yeah, and that is the thing to watch is what does the defeat of the health care do to one the leadership in the House and Senate. You kind of figure in the House, Paul Ryan, you know, he got a bill passed so his members won't want to overthrow him in the Senate. There are already whispers that, you know, McConnell should go and what does it do to the Republicans relationship with Trump? I mean, they've now, Republicans have now seen that Trump is not an asset in passing complicated legislation and he's generally been a liability. All his sort of personal problems and, and narcissism and public outbursts and how it, you know, who could have predicted how it is counterproductive to actually passing legislation.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thanks so much, Ryan.

[Ryan Lizza]

Thanks, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Ryan Liza is a staff writer and an on air contributor for cnn. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker in your podcast app. And find more political analysis and commentary on newyorker.com feel free to rate and review the political scene on itunes. This podcast is produced by Alex barron for new yorker.com with help from Hannah Wilentz. I'm Dorothy Wickenden. America is changing and so is the world.

[Ryan Lizza]

But what's happening in America is, isn't just a cause of global upheaval, it's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Ryan Lizza]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

From this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Ryan Lizza]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts from. PRX.