The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode Title: Scaramucci's Scare Tactics
Date: July 28, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guest: Ryan Lizza (Staff Writer, The New Yorker & On-air Contributor, CNN)
Overview
This episode dives into the tumult and chaos engulfing the Trump White House, highlighted by Anthony Scaramucci’s explosive behavior in his early days as Communications Director. Dorothy Wickenden and Ryan Lizza unpack Lizza’s recent headline-grabbing interaction with Scaramucci, the White House's obsession with loyalty, infighting among senior staffers, the President’s attacks on Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and the Republican Party's increasingly fraught relationship with Trump, especially after the Senate’s dramatic defeat of the healthcare bill.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Scaramucci’s Call to Ryan Lizza and Fallout
- The Call: Scaramucci phoned Ryan Lizza, demanding the source for a tweet and unleashed a profanity-laced tirade against Reince Priebus, accusing him of leaking and other misdeeds. This was a rare, on-the-record, “no ground rules” moment for a reporter.
- Quote: “You don't get this kind of on the record, no ground rules call with someone just unloading.” (Ryan Lizza, 03:05)
- Lizza was struck by Scaramucci’s ignorance about how financial disclosures work (they’re public records), paranoia, and how quickly he assumed Priebus was an enemy.
- Memorable Line: “He’s threatening to kill all the leakers, as he put it in one of the quieter parts of the exchange.” (Dorothy Wickenden, 02:58)
2. Scaramucci’s Channeling of Trump
- Scaramucci’s style and behavior openly mirror Trump’s—“let Trump be Trump,” or, as Lizza puts it, “let Scaramucci be Trump” (04:32).
- The appointment deepens existing White House divisions, adding “another tribe into a multi-front civil war.” (Ryan Lizza, 05:25)
- Rather than focusing on policy or communications strategy, Scaramucci prioritizes fighting internal “turf wars.”
3. The White House’s Obsession with Loyalty
- Trump’s demand for absolute loyalty drives chaos and dysfunction, illustrated by Scaramucci’s public fawning and a prior Cabinet meeting where staff pledged fealty.
- Quote: “Trump is fixated on loyalty. This is one thing we saw this week almost to the exclusion of anything else.” (Dorothy Wickenden, 05:47)
- Wickenden points out that this obsession is unfolding during a disastrous week for Trump, with the healthcare bill collapse and looming sanctions.
4. Dysfunction and Breakdown of Governance
- Lizza notes that instead of stabilizing, the White House has become “more dysfunctional, more chaotic, more unable to do much as time has gone on.” (06:52)
- Public spats, like Scaramucci calling the FBI on Reince Priebus, illustrate a worsening climate.
- Quote: “One of them literally telling me on the record that he called the FBI on his opponent in the White House.” (Ryan Lizza, 07:00)
5. Trump’s Attacks on Jeff Sessions
- Trump has harshly and publicly criticized Attorney General Sessions, aiming to exert control over the Russia investigation.
- Lizza observes that Trump’s goal is to undermine the rule of law, confusing his own interests with those of the presidency.
- Quote: “What he's doing here is trying to undermine the rule of law. I don't think there's any other way to describe it.” (Ryan Lizza, 09:54)
- Firing Sessions would likely backfire, as the Senate has shown strong support for Sessions, and replacing him would be extraordinarily difficult.
6. Russia, Mueller, and the Leak Obsession
- Trump’s fixation on leaks blurs legal distinctions and serves as a distraction from more pressing legislative and political failures.
- Quote: “Leaks in general, and they tend to just paper over the differences between an illegal leak… and leaks that are… just gossip.” (Ryan Lizza, 11:50)
- The ultimate target for Trump seems to be removing Robert Mueller, but attacking Sessions doesn’t actually help accomplish that.
7. Strained GOP-White House Relations & Staff Departures
- The departure of Sean Spicer and the potential axing of Priebus threaten to leave virtually no senior officials with deep Republican Party ties other than VP Pence.
- Trump’s growing preference for loyalists over experienced Washington insiders undermines his own legislative agenda.
- Quote: “The more they fill the White House with people like Anthony Scaramucci… the less they fill it with people who at least have some basic Washington experience.” (Ryan Lizza, 13:39)
8. Mike Pence’s Loyalty and Future
- Pence is described as unusually loyal to Trump, sometimes sycophantic, despite personal differences, likely with an eye towards his own political ambitions.
- Quote: “Just a sort of, you know, frankly, kind of strange Trump sycophant…” (Ryan Lizza, 14:33)
- Wickenden notes Pence’s subtle distance from Trump's most egregious scandals.
9. The President’s Power to Pardon & Constitutional Crisis
- Amidst the chaos, Trump asserted his power to pardon anyone, including himself—a historically unprecedented step.
- Quote: “The idea that the president would assert that he does have that power or would leak out that his legal advisors are looking into it… it just sort of makes you look guilty to begin with.” (Ryan Lizza, 15:40)
10. The GOP at a Crossroads
- Defeat of the healthcare bill signals a potential breaking point between Trump and Congressional Republicans.
- Lizza argues Trump’s lack of constructive involvement has made things worse for the party, leading to questions about leadership and future collaboration.
- Quote: “Trump is not an asset in passing complicated legislation and he's generally been a liability.” (Ryan Lizza, 16:51)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Ryan Lizza (01:55): “As you know from the Italian expression, the fish stinks from the head down. But I can tell you two fish that don't stink, okay? And that's me and the President.”
- Dorothy Wickenden (05:47): “Trump is fixated on loyalty. This is… happening in this incredible week for the President.”
- Ryan Lizza (09:54): “What he's doing here is trying to undermine the rule of law. I don't think there's any other way to describe it.”
- Ryan Lizza (15:40): “The idea that the president would assert that he does have that power or would leak out that his legal advisors are looking into it… it just sort of makes you look guilty to begin with.”
- Ryan Lizza (16:51): “Trump is not an asset in passing complicated legislation and he's generally been a liability.”
Important Timestamps
- 01:16 — Episode begins, context for Scaramucci’s tirade
- 01:55 — Lizza recounts Scaramucci’s on-air, Trump-imitating defense
- 03:10 — Lizza highlights Scaramucci’s ignorance and extraordinary candor
- 04:32 — Comparing Trump and Scaramucci, “let Trump be Trump” philosophy
- 05:47 — Trump’s obsession with staff loyalty
- 06:52 — Lizza laments White House dysfunction
- 07:20 — Discussion moves to Trump’s targeting of Sessions and Mueller
- 09:39 — Lizza explains Trump’s motives behind attacks on Sessions
- 11:48 — The administration’s fixation on leaks
- 13:17 — The risk of losing senior Republicans in the administration
- 14:29 — Analysis of Mike Pence’s loyalty
- 15:36 — Trump’s claim of presidential pardoning power
- 16:30 — Impact of healthcare defeat on GOP-Trump relationship
Tone & Style
- The conversation is lightly irreverent, deeply knowledgeable, and occasionally dryly humorous.
- Both speakers maintain a tone of incredulity at the dysfunction and spectacle, but ground their insights in seasoned political reportage.
Concluding Thoughts
This episode encapsulates a turning point in the Trump administration marked by internecine warfare, loyalty tests, and headline-generating chaos. It offers unique first-hand insights into the mechanics and consequences of White House dysfunction, raises concerns about the erosion of rule of law, and foreshadows intensifying strains between the presidency and the Republican establishment. For listeners seeking context for the wild swings of summer 2017—and the significance of Scaramucci’s short but spectacular White House tenure—this episode provides essential clarity and colorful detail.