The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Senator Mark Warner on the Threat of Russia
Date: May 14, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Senator Mark Warner (Vice Chairman, Senate Intelligence Committee)

Episode Overview

In this episode, David Remnick interviews Senator Mark Warner, the Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, about the breadth and consequences of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, the state of the ongoing Senate investigation, and broader issues around cybersecurity, disinformation, and the response of the U.S. government. Warner discusses the need for bipartisan cooperation, the vulnerabilities within American democracy, and the urgent necessity to update approaches to information warfare.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scope and Nature of Russian Interference

• Senator Warner emphasizes the comprehensiveness of the Russian attack on U.S. democracy, noting the country’s unpreparedness across government, electoral systems, and social media.
  • "Maybe the most remarkable thing is how comprehensive the Russian effort was and how off guard in many ways. The American government, the American electoral system, our social media companies, we were just not prepared." – Warner (02:43)
• Three main aspects of interference:
  • Russians massively intervened to help Trump and harm Clinton.
  • They touched or breached 21 state electoral systems.
  • Used social media in unprecedented ways to manipulate public opinion (03:10).

2. Effectiveness and Cost of Russian Operations

• Warner notes the cost-effectiveness of Russia’s actions compared to traditional military spending:
  • "All the cost of the Russian expenditures...it's less than the cost of one new F35 airplane. So I feel like they're getting a pretty good bang for the buck or bang for the ruble." (03:45)

3. Degree of Collusion and Ongoing Investigation

• Discussion of two interpretations of the Trump campaign’s relationship with Russia: naivete versus intentional cooperation (04:12).
• Warner is cautious, neither exonerating nor condemning Trump or his associates until the investigation is complete:
  • "I'm reserving my final judgment until we've seen all the witnesses..." (04:56)
  • Highlights indictments and guilty pleas already obtained by Mueller's team as evidence of real material to review (05:38).
• New evidence continues to surface, particularly around the Trump transition and other campaign individuals (06:11).

4. Bipartisan Effort and Legislative Response

• Warner stresses the importance of a bipartisan approach to maintain credibility (13:41).
• Announces bipartisan legislation and allocation of $380 million to beef up election security, with periodic report release every 30-45 days (06:48).

5. Administration Response and Frustration

• Security officials acknowledge continuing Russian activities, yet Warner expresses frustration over the White House’s lack of action:
  • "All of Mr. Trump’s appointees acknowledge this yet, and this is their public testimony. They have said none of them have received directions from the White House to make this a priority going forward." (07:25)

6. Putin's Motives and Russian Strategy

• Warner discusses the idea that Russia, rather than supporting a party, seeks chaos in the West to strengthen Putin’s position at home.
  • "Chaos in the west is good for Putin...if their goal was to further splinter America, pretty good investment on the rubles." (09:08)
• Observes that Russian military doctrine predicts using cyber, misinformation, and disinformation as effective means to parity with the West (09:38).

7. America's Military Priorities vs. Cyber Threats

• Warner questions whether America invests too heavily in traditional military assets at the expense of cyber defense (10:41).
  • "I am saying maybe too much 20th century military. When our systems are terribly vulnerable to cyber..." (10:46)
• Points to the risk of new technology—deepfakes, misinformation—and America’s unpreparedness.

8. Cyber Hygiene and Congressional Awareness

• Warner admits improvement is needed among lawmakers regarding cybersecurity and understanding social media.
  • "Frankly I think I should probably improve my cyber hygiene...a lot of my colleagues showed how little they understood social media when they interviewed Mr. Zuckerberg." (12:30)

9. Public Trust in the Investigation's Outcome

• Warner expresses concern about public polarization, recognizing that many may reject any findings as partisan.
  • "You're darn right. I am very worried about that, which is why I got to try to go the extra mile to keep this bipartisan." (13:41)
• Illustrates Russian manipulation of information online, noting Russian news sources dominated search results on relevant issues even on election day (14:03).

10. Respect for the Rule of Law

• Warner deplores attacks on the FBI and Justice Department, warning about the dangers of undermining core institutions (14:55).
  • "Attacking the integrity of the whole FBI, attacking the integrity of the whole Justice Department...that gets America into uncharted territory around respect for rule of law." (15:40)
• On whether President Trump cares about rule of law:
  • "I hope that is not the case." (15:54)
  • Warns that firing Mueller would "cross a red line" (16:02).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the effectiveness of Russia’s cyber operations:
  “If you add up all the cost of the Russian expenditures...it’s less than the cost of one new F35 airplane. So I feel like they’re getting a pretty good bang for the buck or bang for the ruble on this kind of active measures.” – Warner (03:45)

• On waiting for all the facts:
  “I’m reserving my final judgment until we’ve seen all the witnesses we need to see and that we’ve gotten all the facts.” – Warner (04:56)

• On bipartisan integrity:
  “I gotta try to go the extra mile to keep this bipartisan. I gotta believe there’s enough Americans who...if you’ve got joint agreement from both parties, people will start to accept it.” – Warner (13:41)

• On deepfakes and future technological threats:
  “What happens when we move to 2018 technology, where we put David Remnick’s face on Mike Allen, another journalist’s body, and you’ve got a suddenly live video stream of what appears to be David Remnick saying things that is not him at all.” – Warner (11:00)

• On erosion of respect for institutions:
  “Attacking the integrity of the whole FBI, attacking the integrity of the whole Justice Department...that gets America into uncharted territory around respect for rule of law.” – Warner (15:40)

Important Timestamps

• 02:43 – Warner on the comprehensive nature of Russian interference
• 03:45 – Cost-effectiveness of Russian information warfare
• 04:56 – Warner reserves judgment on collusion
• 06:48 – Timeline and status of Senate investigation and legislation
• 07:25 – Frustration with the White House’s lack of prioritization
• 09:08 – Chaos as a Russian strategic goal
• 10:46 – Military spending vs. cyber defense
• 13:41 – Necessity of bipartisanship to maintain credibility
• 14:03 – Russian sources dominating Google election searches
• 15:40 – Fear of undermining rule of law

Tone and Language

Warner speaks with caution and gravitas, often emphasizing the need for bipartisanship and careful investigation. Remnick and Wickenden maintain a tone of seriousness and urgency while probing for clarity and challenging generalities, especially regarding respect for the rule of law and the administration’s stance. The conversation is direct but diplomatic throughout.

Conclusion

Senator Warner’s interview highlights the ongoing vulnerability of American democracy to foreign interference, the incomplete and evolving nature of the Senate’s investigation, and the need for both bipartisan cooperation and a recalibration of U.S. defensive priorities. The episode serves as a sobering reminder of the scale and sophistication of new threats facing Western democracies—and the high stakes involved in their response.