Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Sherrod Brown on Trump’s Tariffs and the Future of Economic Populism
Host: Tyler Foggatt
Guest: Former Senator Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Date: April 9, 2025

Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Tyler Foggatt and Sherrod Brown, the long-serving Democratic Senator from Ohio, renowned for his populist economic stance and skepticism toward free trade policies. Brown discusses the current landscape around Trump’s broad tariffs on dozens of countries, critiques both neoliberal free trade and Trump’s “scatterbrained” protectionism, argues for a “third path” trade policy focused on American workers, and introduces his new think tank, the Dignity of Work Institute. The conversation explores the effects of tariffs, the future of economic populism, the impact of automation, and the urgent need for Democrats to recenter working-class concerns.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sherrod Brown’s Position on Tariffs and Trade (01:47–03:55)

• Brown rejects the “false choice” between pure free trade (NAFTA, PNTR with China) and Trump’s “reckless scatterbrained tariffs.”
• “There is another way to have a trade policy that works for workers. The goal of trade policy... is to level the playing field for American workers. And we really have never done that.” (Sherrod Brown, 01:54)
• Brown traces the historical betrayal of Rust Belt workers by both parties, especially through corporate-influenced trade agreements that led jobs overseas.
• He emphasizes Democrats’ political loss among working-class Midwesterners due to support for unpopular trade deals.

2. Critique of Trump’s Tariff Program (03:55–08:24)

• Trump’s tariffs are criticized as “erratic and nonsensical,” lacking strategic focus and certainty for businesses.
• “I don’t want to see progressives in their fervor to oppose Trump’s erratic tariff policy going back to this neoliberal ally with Wall Street... progressives are making a great mistake if we’re doing that.” (Sherrod Brown, 03:55)
• Brown recounts personal history in Mansfield, Ohio, illustrating the devastating local impact of plant closures and offshoring.

3. What Should a Pro-Worker Trade Policy Look Like? (08:24–11:53)

• Brown advocates a focused, worker-centered trade policy:
  • Use of targeted, industry-specific tariffs against unfair practices (e.g., China’s wage suppression or subsidies), not broad-brush actions.
  • Restore certainty for companies and workers—so firms can plan, invest, and rebuild supply chains domestically.
  • Broader pro-labor reforms: enforce labor law, raise the minimum wage, strengthen worker safety, and ensure overtime for more workers.
• He provides a concrete example: a Texas judge’s ruling that cost 4 million workers their overtime pay, pointing at how systemic policies—not just tariffs—need to benefit workers.

4. Labor Response & Complexity of the Tariff Debate (11:53–14:10)

• UAW president Sean Fain’s “conditional” support for Trump’s tariffs is discussed:
  • Fain is “gonna fight for his workers,” but he “knows that it’s much more than tariffs.”
  • Brown interprets Fain’s position as pragmatic; any effective policy must integrate—but not rely solely on—tariffs.
• Notable moment: Fain’s quote, “60% of Americans have no retirement savings. So when I hear all the crying about the stock market, this is just Wall Street.” (Tyler Foggatt quoting Sean Fain, 13:41)
• Brown and Foggatt agree that public debate is framed too narrowly—workers’ realities extend far beyond the interests of Wall Street and stockholders.

5. Seeking a Concrete Path Forward (15:14–16:12)

• Tyler Foggatt presses for specifics: What would better, targeted tariffs look like?
• Brown re-centers the answer on broader labor rights: “It means helping workers in overtime. It means enforcing labor law. It means a higher minimum wage... don’t weaken worker safety standards.” (Sherrod Brown, 15:32)

6. Trump’s Real Priorities and Understanding of Tariffs (17:02–19:16)

• Brown recounts his limited, mostly fruitless exchanges with Trump, including a failed attempt to advance the “Patriot Corporation Act,” rewarding firms that pay living wages.
• He’s skeptical that Trump ever had “a sophisticated view” of trade policy or a real interest in worker well-being: “He talked about it, and it’s probably why he was elected in 2024. But nobody really knows the goals of his tariffs. They’re too erratic. They change constantly.” (Sherrod Brown, 17:33)

7. Industry Nuance: Protectionism and the Limits of Reshoring (19:16–23:33)

• Discussion on industry-specific vs. blanket tariffs. Some manufacturing (like suit-making) is almost impossible to reshore; others (like steel, or EVs) are critical to national security.
• The example of Biden’s targeted tariffs on Chinese EVs is cited as “a good reason” for protection.
• Brown highlights the balancing act: “You have to go industry by industry... much spent at the International Trade Commission was on behalf of the steel industry, because that’s important for national security, supply chain, and good union wage jobs.” (Sherrod Brown, 19:50)
• Brown shares findings from his Dignity of Work Institute surveys: deep worker pessimism about the economy’s fairness and about their own prospects for home ownership, job stability, and unexpected expenses.

8. Automation, Reshoring, and the Future of Work (23:33–27:09)

• Foggatt asks whether manufacturing can really create new jobs in the face of automation and AI.
• Brown remains optimistic about a new generation of well-paid, mid-skill manufacturing and technical jobs—often non-college, unionized tracks.
• “We can do a little less so, but do the same with some white collar jobs too. Whether it’s occupational therapy... or some kind of dental technician... and we’re not going to be 1950s, 60s, 70s manufacturer, but... manufacturing jobs are... vulnerable to bad trade policy.” (Sherrod Brown, 24:33)
• Brown expresses need for policymakers to truly listen to workers, drawing inspiration from Studs Terkel’s Working.

9. Can Democrats Reclaim Economic Populism? (28:11–32:34)

• Foggatt worries Democrats are being pushed away from protectionism and economic populism because of Trump’s rhetoric.
• Brown insists, “Protection is not a bad word. The corporate elite and the serious people in Washington made it a bad word. But I like the idea of protecting jobs, protecting my family, protecting our country.”
• He calls out both Trumpian demagoguery and Democratic neoliberalism for failing workers, urging Democrats to “serve the country better, but... actually do good politics. Because work unites us all.”
• Memorable story: Brown recalls a unionized custodial worker in Cincinnati who, at 51, got her first-ever paid week of vacation. “You think anybody works harder than people working all night cleaning offices? Do you work that hard? Do I work that hard? We give them almost nothing... Most people get their income from paychecks, not from a stock portfolio. We’ve got to show we’re working hard for those families.” (Sherrod Brown, 31:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There are not two choices in trade policy... There is a third choice.”
  (Sherrod Brown, 03:55)

• “To a lot of workers anything’s better than the global order on trade.”
  (Sherrod Brown, 03:55)

• “He (Trump) had no sophisticated view of how to do trade policy. He had no real interest in lifting workers up. He talked about it, and it’s probably why he was elected in 2024. But nobody really knows the goals of his tariffs. They’re too erratic.”
  (Sherrod Brown, 17:33)

• “Protection is not a bad word. The corporate elite and the serious people in Washington made it a bad word. But I like the idea of protecting jobs, protecting my family, protecting our country.”
  (Sherrod Brown, 28:51)

• “Most people get their income from paychecks, not from a stock portfolio. We’ve got to show we’re working hard for those families.”
  (Sherrod Brown, 32:21)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:47–03:55: Brown lays out his views on trade and tariffs, critiques binary thinking.
• 08:31–11:53: Brown offers an alternative policy vision: targeted tariffs, labor rights, economic certainty.
• 11:53–14:10: UAW president’s view on tariffs; the distinction between Wall Street and workers’ realities.
• 17:33–19:16: Brown’s direct interactions with Trump, lack of substantive worker protections.
• 24:33–27:09: Automation and the (realistic) future for American manufacturing.
• 28:51–32:21: Can Democrats embrace protectionism and working-class economic populism?

Tone & Language

• Brown remains passionately populist, critical of both Trump’s reckless approach and Democratic complacency.
• The discussion is rooted in personal anecdotes, working-class stories, and direct language (“rigged economy,” “corporate elite”), blending anger and hope.
• The tone is earnest and focused, with Brown drawing on lived experience and real worker voices as evidence.

Key Takeaways

• Binary thinking—free trade or erratic tariffs—fails workers. Brown advocates for nuanced, worker-centered policies.
• Effective tariffs must be targeted, strategic, and coupled with broader pro-worker reforms.
• Democrats risk abandoning economic populism at their peril; protectionism, properly defined, should be reclaimed as a pro-worker principle.
• True revitalization relies as much on union jobs, labor rights, and worker dignity as on policy tools like tariffs.
• Any plan for the future must grapple honestly with the realities of automation, industry transformation, and the urgent need to listen to the working class.