Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Should Progressive Organizers Lean More on the Church?

Air Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Tyler Foggatt
Guest: Jay Caspian Kang (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

Overview

This episode explores the role of the church in American protest and dissent, focusing on whether progressive organizers should look to religious institutions for infrastructure, moral vision, and sustainability in their movements. Using recent anti-ICE organizing in Minneapolis as a case study, host Tyler Foggatt and journalist Jay Caspian Kang discuss the history, evolving dynamics, challenges, and future potential of church-driven activism—especially on the political left.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Effective Protest Movements

• Successful protests result in tangible political or legal changes, not just in “awareness.”
• Notable Examples:
  • Anti-abortion movement (Right): Started from small, mocked Catholic groups, later achieved the Supreme Court victory they sought.
    "[The anti-abortion movement] started small... and then grew and sort of won a large Supreme Court decision that they always wanted." (00:30, Jay)
  • Gay marriage movement (Left): Synthesized multiple movements towards a clear political goal, normalized through advocacy and influencing politicians.
• Modern Protest Limitations:
  • Social media drives mass mobilization and visibility, but often lacks the infrastructure for long-term change.
  • Movements can be “intense but short-lived,” often missing the follow-through for policy change, as seen post-George Floyd protests.
    "What we don't know is what all that awareness does." (01:55, Jay)

2. Case Study: Recent Anti-ICE Protests in Minneapolis

• Localized and neighborhood-based, not organized via public social media calls but through messaging apps (e.g., Signal).
• Emphasis is on community protection—standing up for neighbors rather than broad abstract issues.
• Durability vs. Scale:
  "The localized nature of it both makes it smaller in scale, but I think it might also make it more durable..." (05:31, Jay)
• Widespread community investment, driven by immediate fear, not just altruism.

3. Controversy: Church Disruption as Protest

• Recent anti-ICE protesters interrupted a St. Paul church service, confronting a pastor allegedly associated with ICE.
• DOJ investigating under the FACE Act, which protects religious freedom from intimidation.
• Jay critiques the tactic as counterproductive, recalling similar 2020-era disruption strategies: "I don't think that any of these people should be brought up on federal charges, right... [but] it's very counterproductive to provide that image of you disrupting a church service." (09:32, Jay)
• Raises the question of how (and whether) progressive movements can collaborate with churches.

4. Historical Perspective: The Sanctuary and Civil Rights Movements

• Sanctuary Movement (1980s): Originated in response to U.S. immigration policy for Salvadoran and Guatemalan refugees; involved clergy and churches directly sheltering migrants, setting the stage for contemporary “sanctuary city” concepts. "There was this broad idea of sanctuary, which is that if somebody is in great peril, that the church has a moral responsibility to help them." (13:47, Jay)
• Churches as Infrastructure: Churches provided moral vision, community infrastructure, and leadership in both the sanctuary and civil rights movements.

5. Can Progressive Movements Thrive Without the Church?

• Argument:
  "I do not believe that there can be any abiding movement for social change in this [country] without support from the church." (16:06, Jay)
• Why?
  • Offers moral vision deeply rooted in national identity (“love thy neighbor” resonates widely, not just with the religious).
  • Provides physical space, social hierarchy, and respected moral leadership.
  • Even secular progressives benefit from the resonance that churches carry among Americans.
• Counterpoint:
  • Host asks if secular moral frameworks (“every person deserves basic human rights”) can have equal weight.
  • Jay and host both note the unique “elemental” power of religious language (29:24).
• Churches on Progressive Issues:
  • Even the gay marriage movement required the buy-in of clergy for legitimacy and for operational success.
    "The church was pretty involved in that... I don't think they would have succeeded if they didn't have clergy members who came out and said, we're willing to do this." (19:05, Jay)

6. Barriers to Greater Church-Progressive Collaboration

• Left often avoids the church, letting the right dominate religious organizing.
• Concerns about drowning out non-Christian/young activist voices.
• Churches worry about alienating politically diverse dwindling congregations, becoming more politically reticent post-20th century secularization.
  "A lot of churches start to take on a defensive posture about being explicitly political..." (34:00, Jay)

7. Should Churches Lead or Support?

• Some church leaders argue for a support role, letting young activists lead.
• Jay argues church leadership should be more direct—quotes a recent statement from an Episcopal Bishop calling clergy to “prepare for a new era of martyrdom.” "Now is no longer the time for statements, but for us with our bodies to stand between the powers of this world and the most vulnerable." (23:31, Episcopal Bishop via Jay)

8. The Church’s Image Problem

• Christian nationalism has become the most visible face of Christianity in American politics.
• Non-nationalist, progressive denominations need to reassert a public role, both to support justice and to regain credibility among nonreligious and young people. "Christian nationalism has been allowed to become the de facto face of religion in America, especially when it comes to politics." (30:14, Jay)

9. The Role of Church in the “Protest Economy”

• In the current media environment, the clergy’s public function is often as a “martyr”—a visible victim that generates outrage. "Every time a clergy member goes viral, it's because they're getting tear gassed by ICE... they're there as like the person who should be protected by, from state violence, who is yet also being affected by state violence." (38:36, Jay)
• Jay is skeptical of whether online/digital protest is effective at generating real change versus dissipating outrage.

10. Community Organizing and the Value of the Church

• Jay is optimistic about localized, community-based organizing, especially when tied to concrete, urgent action (e.g., preventing neighbor deportations).
• Churches excel as community hubs; when protest feels personal and local, it’s more sustaining than mass, abstract protests. "If you live next to that person... then you're going to feel way more invested in that. Right? Because like you do feel important." (44:04, Jay)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the need for institutional infrastructure:
  "Activist movements need infrastructure... what my friend Wayne Shang... called scaffolding. The church can provide that structure." (10:05, Jay)

• On the intersection of faith and public conviction:
  "When you have that level of conviction ... out of a relationship of faith... people respect it more. It’s better for converting the public... than just saying, 'well, I believe this because of these moral ideas that I have.'" (24:03, Jay)

• On religious vs. secular moral language:
  "Do you feel like 'every person deserves basic human rights' is as powerful and as, I guess, elemental of a position as 'every person as a child of God'?" (29:10, Jay)

• On church activism’s public perception:
  "If you read the news... it sort of feels that way, right? And that type of warping of the face of actual churchgoers in America... needs to be pushed back against." (32:05, Jay)

Important Timestamps

• Defining Effective Protest: 00:10–03:18
• Minneapolis Anti-ICE Protest Dynamics: 05:01–08:25
• Church Disruption and Its Impact: 08:25–11:53
• Sanctuary Movement History: 13:32–16:06
• Church’s Unique Role: 16:06–19:43
• Gay Marriage & Clergy Involvement: 18:42–19:43
• The Case for Progressive Churches: 23:00–25:56
• Christian Nationalism and Church Image: 30:14–32:22
• Why Churches Became Reticent: 34:00–36:09
• Clergy as Martyrs in Protest Economy: 38:36–39:36
• Limitations of Mass Protest vs Community Action: 41:27–44:50

Conclusion

The episode makes a nuanced argument: that progressive movements in the U.S. historically owe much of their effectiveness and staying power to the involvement of religious institutions—primarily churches—offering both moral authority and practical organizing infrastructure. Jay Caspian Kang suggests the left’s current skepticism toward the church may undermine its efforts, despite the potential of faith communities to spark meaningful, sustainable social change, especially through localized, deeply personal organizing. The episode closes with hope for a revitalized, community-based activism—potentially scaffolded by an inclusive and vocal church.