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The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Stephen Hayes Talks to David Remnick About the Future of Conservatism
00:16:29
Stephen Hayes Talks to David Remnick About the Future of Conservatism
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- [00:00]
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- [01:17]
Michael Colori
I'm David Remnick. On today's Politics and More podcast, I talk with Stephen Hayes, the editor of the Weekly Standard. Hayes is a prominent voice in neoconservatism and sees the Trump administration embracing big government, and he wonders what that means for the future of the Republican Party. It's going to be some time, years maybe, before we ever get a definitive account of what's going on inside the White House in this first dramatic hundred days of the Trump administration. Whatever they may say about unity or a well oiled machine, there's clearly a struggle going on. Some players trying to keep Trump to a Republican line of a traditional conservative sort, while Steve Bannon and others with a nationalist agenda are determined to satisfy Trump's fans at any cost. So on the one hand, there's the promise of tax cuts, rolling back regulation, the repeal of Obamacare, and on the other, as in the address to Congress the other week, there's everything that is.
- [02:23]
Stephen Hayes
Broken in our country can be fixed.
- [02:26]
Michael Colori
Every problem can be solved in a way that's a big government vision. That's almost a heresy for conservatives. Stephen Hayes is the editor of the Weekly Standard, one of the most prominent conservative magazines out there, and he often appears on Fox News. Hayes, like his predecessor Bill Kristol, was a die hard, never Trumper. In the run up to the election, were you glad he won as opposed to Hillary Clinton?
- [02:52]
Stephen Hayes
That's a good question. I think Givenlet put it this way. When I woke up the morning after Trump won, I was the bright side was brighter than I had expected. The thought of potentially repealing Obamacare, of putting another conservative on the Supreme Court, I wasn't sure Trump was going to do that. I certainly had my doubts. I was skeptical that he would keep his word. He certainly, over the course of the campaign, was on virtually every side of every issue and thought that it would be hard for a conservative to trust him. And I worried about things like starting a trade war with China. I worried about his ties to Russia or his overt friendliness with Vladimir Putin.
- [03:36]
Michael Colori
Michael Kirk, what do you make of that? What do you make of his relation to Russia and the whole complex of situations and pieces of evidence about finance or collusion that we now some people call Radio Russiagate? What do you make of it all?
- [03:53]
Stephen Hayes
Well, I certainly think we need to know more. It's at the very least odd that the one position Donald Trump held throughout the campaign on which he was remarkably consistent was Russia and Vladimir Putin. He wasn't consistent about whether he knew Putin or didn't know Putin.
- [04:10]
Michael Colori
But what does that tell you about Trump?
- [04:12]
Stephen Hayes
Well, he's very casual with the truth, to be charitable. I mean, he says things that aren't true all the time.
- [04:20]
Michael Colori
Are you saying he's a liar?
- [04:21]
Stephen Hayes
He lies all the time. I don't think there's any doubt about that. I mean, he says things that are untrue all the time, sometimes casual. We've had a phrase that we've thrown around at the Weekly Standard called casual dishonesty. He's dishonest about seemingly meaningless things. And conservatives shouldn't shy away from saying that. When Trump says things that are wrong or misleading, knowingly false, he should be corrected. And he shouldn't just be corrected by the mainstream media. He should be corrected by the conservative media.
- [04:51]
Michael Colori
Now, on my side of the ideological fence, that is to say, roughly speaking, people who consider themselves leftist, center or liberals, many of them see this as, this isn't just the election of a Republican or a conservative, which we've had, you know, over and over, and we always will have a back and forth, but it's something that's not normal because of the dishonesty, because of the rhetoric, because of conflicts of interest. Do you agree with that?
- [05:16]
Stephen Hayes
Well, I think there are certainly some people on the right who would agree with what you're broadly characterizing as a view of the left. I guess my view is a little bit different. You know, we were raising these questions about Donald Trump throughout the primary. We raised them throughout the general election. After he became president, my view was, he needs to succeed. I would like him to succeed, however much I didn't think he was prepared to be the President of the United States.
- [05:47]
Michael Colori
Maybe it's a funny question to ask when the Democratic Party is in its worst electoral state since the 1920s, but what does it say about the Republican Party that the entire Republican intelligentsia, the editors of your magazine, of the National Review, and so many other conservative intellectuals and writers and political thinkers were anti Trump, and he won all the same. What does that say about the situation with conservatism in this country and the Republican Party?
- [06:16]
Stephen Hayes
Well, as I'm reminded, every day we matter less than we thought. People like to point that out every day. Look, I mean, we made what we thought were principled, conservative arguments against Donald Trump, sometimes in favor of the policies advocated by his opponents, both again in the primaries and in the general election. And people didn't care as much as we wish that they had. It stinks to be on the losing end of an argument. But now the question to me is, I mean, as you know, somebody who runs one of these publications, what can we do, given the state of the country, given where we are, what can we do to help the country, not to help Donald Trump the person, not to help the Republican Party? Lord knows we spend a lot of time criticizing the Republican Party, but this is a big moment for the country. Whether you're talking about threats abroad, whether you're talking about the rising debt, whether you're talking about the problems with Obamacare, These are huge issues. And, you know, you know, what we want to do at the Weekly Standard is spend time proposing solutions. We hope we'll be listened to. And trying to correct Donald Trump where he's wrong, trying to challenge him when he says things that are untrue, try to push him in the right direction because it's important for the country. And I realize that that sounds probably a bit Pollyannish, but it's the way that we've chosen to approach this presidency.
- [07:51]
Michael Colori
Do you get the sense that you're being listened to? The New Republic, back in the 80s, used to be known as The In Flight magazine of Air Force One. Do you have any sense that you're being listened to or even your magazine, or collectively, the conservative group of magazines is being listened to inside the White House, or is it being dominated by Breitbart and Newsmax and the rest?
- [08:11]
Stephen Hayes
No, I certainly think we're being listened to inside the White House. I mean, the irony of the Trump presidency in some respects is we look across the senior staff of the White House. We look at people who are running agencies. In many cases, most cases, these are people that we've dealt with before with whom we have relationships. And I think actually the Weekly Standard is in some respects uniquely positioned to cover the Trump White House. Nobody can accuse us of having been cheerleaders, having been on board, or having been boosters of Trump during the campaign. And yet we are this conservative journal of opinion. We proudly announce that we are the kind of conservatives today that we were 20 years ago. I expect that given the principles that most of us share, we'll be the same kind of conservatives 20 years from now. And what we're going to do is report the hell out of the Trump administration. So you could expect fewer hot takes from the Weekly Standard and much more reporting. We're going to go and we're going to spend time at the White House. We're going to be talking to the people who are making progress policy or who are hoping to make policy or who are making policy after Donald Trump tweets policy, we're going to be talking to them.
- [09:26]
Michael Colori
Recently, the president called a number of publications and really collectively the press as enemies of the American people. Do you feel included in that group?
- [09:35]
Stephen Hayes
Sure, I felt included. I was offended by that. I think it's a horrible thing to say. It was un American of the President of the United States to say that the press plays an absolutely pivotal role in our republic, has since the founding. You can go back and read so many of the thoughts of the founders who have articulated exactly the role that they expected the press to play. And look, I have many, many criticisms of the press. I have real criticisms of the way that the media operated during the Obama administration, where I thought he was largely given a pass for things, he should have been checked. The press is biased. The press can do better. I wish there were more conservatives writing for front page articles for the New York Times. But the press is not the enemy of the American people and it's disgraceful to say so.
- [10:29]
Michael Colori
Stephen, you're living in the red hot center of Washington. What is this? Is the mood about how long this period of incredible intensity can last. Every day brings some sense that maybe this can't go on in some way or another. Do you think that the Trump presidency goes its normal course of four years or eight years?
- [10:52]
Stephen Hayes
I don't know. I'll tell a brief story. I had to give a speech down in Florida a couple weeks ago, and we had planned this speech out months, six, eight months ago, and the speech was titled now that the Dust Has Settled. And I went to the group and said, you know, look around. I read a list of things that had happened in the previous 72 hours, and it included Kellyanne Conway telling people to shop at Nordstrom's or not shop at Nordstrom's. I don't even remember. But, you know, a series of silly things and sometimes crazy things and some positive things. You look at what we've seen over the course of the first six weeks, as you suggest, and there is this beleaguering intensity, and you think it has to stay. And I think one of the reasons the President got such positive reviews for the speech that he gave to the joint session of Congress was because it was, for a little bit, a break from that. He didn't tee off on the news media.
- [12:02]
Michael Colori
But to translate that into English, Stephen, I think what you're saying about that speech is that because it wasn't crazy, because it seemed relatively normal, unlike the hour plus press conference, that somehow he seemed presidential. Isn't that grading on a fantastic curve?
- [12:21]
Stephen Hayes
Yes. No, that's actually. You've got me exactly right. That is what I'm saying. That is what I'm saying. I have problems with the speech that he gave. There were things that were in it that I didn't like and things that weren't in it that I thought ought to have been in it. But I was happy, I was relieved that we didn't have these incessant attacks on the news media. And again, I say this as somebody often fairly critical of the mainstream media.
- [12:48]
Michael Colori
You know, for decades, the Republican Party has been, at least on the surface, at least in rhetoric, been the party of smaller government. We remember, of course, Bill Clinton declaring the end of big government and deficits expanded under Republican presidents. But nevertheless, the rhetoric of the Republican Party was smaller government and. And certainly Republicans would charge the Democrats with the opposite. Where will Trump fall out? Where will the Republican Party fall out on this enormous question of the scale of government?
- [13:23]
Stephen Hayes
In some ways, that is the question of the Trump presidency. And I think you can look at both his inaugural, even though there were tonal differences, both his inaugural and his joint address to Congress, and come to the conclusion that Trump will be a big government Republican. He's comfortable with the use of government to do the kinds of things that he, he, Donald Trump, wants to do, and beyond that, the things that he doesn't want to do, that he's made very clear he has no intention of doing, like reforming entitlements. Donald Trump said repeatedly that he is opposed to any kind of entitlement reform. He criticized Mitt Romney for picking Paul Ryan precisely because Paul Ryan favored entitlement reform. And there's this great irony now with Republicans controlling the House, the Senate, Senate, and the White House, and there's no serious talk of entitlement reform whatsoever. So if you want to talk about whether the Trump presidency will be a big government Republican presidency or a small government Republican presidency, we may already know the answer to that question in some respects, because he's not going to tackle that issue. One of the things that I ask myself every day is what will Republicans in Congress do with the Trump presidency? Are they going to go along when he is pursuing policies that contradict everything conservatives have argued for, in some cases decades, maybe centuries, depending on who you're listening to? I mean, if Donald Trump really turns protectionist, are conservatives just going to go along? You know, are conservatives going to vote for policies that Trump proposes on trade? You know, that would have Adam Smith rolling over in his grave. I would hope not. And I think we've seen early indications that that's probably not the case. And the same is true on foreign policy. I mean, what if he does pull out of NATO, which is something he had suggested during the campaign because NATO is obsolete? I mean, I would think that conservatives would stand up and howl if that were the case. Certainly we would be, Steve.
- [15:40]
Michael Colori
Another never Trump conservative who's getting noticed these days is David Frum, whose article in the Atlantic is called how to Build an Autocracy. Now, how do you view Trump in these terms? Do you think he is a potential autocrat or an autocrat already?
- [15:55]
Stephen Hayes
Well, I don't think he's an autocrat already. And I think to the extent that you see his political opponents get hysterical about everything that he does, it makes people tune out when he does do something that truly is alarming or say something that we all ought to stop and say, wait, this is, you know, the enemy of the American people comment that he made about the media that I think required, you know, dial 10 on the outrage meter. But not everything he says and not everything he does requires that kind of outrage. And I think in a sense, his political opponents do him favor when there are huge fits or in some cases maybe moderate sized controversies, because Kellyanne Conway had her feet on the sofa of the White House in the Oval Office. But I guess my advice, my friendly advice to my friends on the left would be wait until it happens or wait until it's imminent. Certainly the Russia questions are legitimate questions, but if every utterance is 10 on the outrage meter, people will tune out quickly. And I think those legitimate, those times where somebody like me and somebody like you might agree on what we ought to be concerned about, those will be lost because we've just been in constant outrage mode.
- [17:23]
Michael Colori
Steve, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. You bet.
- [17:25]
Stephen Hayes
Thanks for having me.
- [17:30]
Michael Colori
Stephen Hayes is the editor in Chief of the Weekly Standard, and he's based in Washing. I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial director. I'm Michael Colori, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.
- [17:51]
Lauren Good
And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.
- [18:00]
Michael Colori
At Wired, we're constantly reporting on how.
- [18:03]
Lauren Good
Technology is changing every aspect of our lives.
- [18:06]
Michael Colori
So each week on the show, we get together to talk about one of.
- [18:09]
Lauren Good
The biggest stories in tech.
- [18:10]
Michael Colori
Right. So whether we're talking about privacy, AI, social media, or a major tech figure, we will always explain the Silicon Valley forces behind these stories and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you.
- [18:25]
Lauren Good
Don'T miss an episode.
- [18:31]
Stephen Hayes
From prx.