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Episode: Steve Coll and Jane Mayer on Obama’s New Non-Interventionist National-Security Team
Date: January 11, 2013
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Steve Coll (often transcribed as "Steve Kahl") and Jane Mayer

Episode Overview

This episode features a nuanced discussion about President Obama’s recent national security appointments: Republican Chuck Hagel as Secretary of Defense, John Kerry as Secretary of State, and John Brennan as CIA Director. Dorothy Wickenden, Steve Coll, and Jane Mayer analyze how these choices signal a shift towards a restrained, non-interventionist U.S. foreign policy, and discuss the implications for America’s military and diplomatic stance post-Arab Spring. The episode explores the ideological backgrounds and controversies surrounding each appointee, with a focus on issues of intervention, intelligence, and responses to global crises.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Obama’s Security Appointments: Status Quo or Change?

• Steve Coll characterizes the appointments as “a resounding vote for the status quo,” with all but Hagel being insiders (02:03).
  • “Kerry... and Brennan... have been working closely with the president... It’s a very conventional sort of managing-the-world team,” adds Coll.
  • Obama “doesn’t have transformational ambitions abroad; he just wants to keep the world at bay so that he can concentrate on... domestic policy.”

2. Chuck Hagel’s Appointment and the Reaction

• Hagel’s nomination has drawn “much more critical” responses from Republican colleagues and neoconservatives than from Democrats (02:48).
• Coll highlights Hagel’s shift from supporting the Iraq War to aligning with realists opposed to humanitarian interventions (02:58).
  • Hagel “has increasingly identified himself with realists who have argued against intervention abroad on humanitarian grounds.”
• On accusations of anti-Semitism: Coll bluntly says, “It is preposterous” (03:56).
  • Describes Hagel as a “restrained combat veteran” who views the use of force as “a very solemn and... careful matter.”
• Jane Mayer adds that Hagel diverges from AIPAC’s views on Israel, supporting a two-state solution and U.S. negotiations with all parties, including Hamas (04:39).
  • She notes the “fascinating campaign” against Hagel by neoconservative groups led by Bill Kristol, characterizing attacks on Hagel as painting him “out of the mainstream and not safe for Israel.”

3. John Brennan and Changes at the CIA

• Coll describes Brennan as an “operations man” overseeing the “secret war machine” primarily led by the CIA and Department of Defense (06:03).
  • Brennan’s approach resembles Hagel’s: “The best way to manage this kind of radicalism is not to inflame it by threatening violence, but to try to isolate it... economic sanctions... diplomatic strategies.”
• Mayer explains the transformation of the CIA post-9/11: Analysts now participate directly in drone targeting, blurring roles between intelligence gathering and military operations (07:52).
  • “The agency itself... has become much more militarized and is working hand in glove with the special operations forces in the Pentagon... They’ve become kind of a seamless killing machine.”

4. Torture, Drones, and Internal Ethics Debates

• Mayer outlines Brennan’s contested record on torture (09:24).
  • As George Tenet’s chief of staff during the post-9/11 years, “he was very closely identified with those programs.”
  • “I've heard that he has portrayed himself as having been an internal critic... But... he went along with the program basically and, you know, certainly didn’t resign during it or over it.”
  • The question of his involvement remains “very sensitive,” and it’s unclear if Senate confirmation will make it public.
• On drone strikes, Mayer notes Brennan is seen as the “initiator and overseer” of the targeted killing program, especially in Yemen (11:04).
  • While Brennan has advocated for internal rules on targeting, “this whole area... has kind of been kept behind closed doors and in the executive branch without checks and balances.”
  • Raises strategic concerns: “Military people... think it could come back to bite us, especially when other countries get drones and the rules are so unclear.”

5. Drone Program: Tactical Success and Strategic Costs

• Coll reflects that drones have “been very effective... in a tactical sense, it’s killed a lot of people and weakened Al Qaeda leadership” (12:38).
  • However, “it has contributed to a broader sort of radicalization and backlash in Pakistani society... it seems to be... a kind of self-justifying and even self-perpetuating program that is also very difficult to judge because it’s so secret.”

6. Clinton vs. Kerry: Approach to Diplomacy

• Coll offers positive remarks on Hillary Clinton’s tenure, praising her openness to new ideas in public diplomacy, particularly with social media, and her willingness to generate public debate (13:30).
  • “She was willing to give ambassadors freedom to make public comments and to generate public controversy in their countries that I don’t think any other Secretary of State has ever authorized.”
• Regarding John Kerry, Coll suggests he is “more of a classicist” and likely to take a traditional troubleshooting approach rather than upending diplomatic norms (15:10).
  • Kerry’s prior successes include mediation in Afghanistan (with Karzai) and diplomatic efforts in Pakistan.

7. Case-by-Case Crisis Handling and U.S. Caution

• The trio agree that Kerry and the broader Obama cabinet will likely approach foreign crises “on a case-by-case basis,” reflecting ongoing U.S. caution about intervention (16:52).
• Coll draws parallels with Bush 41 and early Clinton: “Those were two presidencies where... decision makers... were very cautious about foreign intervention and really willing to watch other people in the world suffer if there were no pressing American interests that justified intervention.”
  • “Libya would not have happened on their watch. There would be no Libyan intervention.” (17:36)
  • On Syria: “We’re already watching the United States make that decision.”

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Steve Coll:

  • “It’s a resounding vote for the status quo... managing-the-world team that arises out of... the President’s sense that he doesn’t have transformational ambitions abroad.” (02:03)
  • Regarding Hagel: “He regards the use of force as a very solemn and... sort of careful matter.” (03:56)
  • On drone strikes: “It’s been very effective in a tactical sense... At the same time, it has contributed to a broader sort of radicalization and backlash...” (12:38)
  • “Libya would not have happened on their watch. There would be no Libyan intervention.” (17:36)

• Jane Mayer:

  • About Hagel’s position on Israel: “Hagel believes... there needs to be a two state solution... that Israel should give up on the idea of sole authority over Jerusalem and share it.” (04:39)
  • On the CIA’s evolution: “They’ve become kind of a seamless killing machine.” (07:52)
  • On Brennan and drones: “He’s widely seen as the initiator and overseer of the use of drones, particularly in Yemen.” (11:04)
  • “The rules are so unclear about who can be killed and Brannon... has rejected the idea that the backlash is much of a problem.” (12:14)

Important Timestamps

• 01:14 – Opening by Dorothy Wickenden; introduces episode focus
• 02:03 – Coll on the status-quo nature of the appointees
• 02:58 – Coll on Hagel’s break with party over Iraq, drift toward realism
• 04:39 – Mayer on Hagel’s nuanced positions regarding Israel & peace process
• 06:03 – Coll and Mayer on Brennan, the militarization of the CIA, and blurred operational lines
• 09:24 – Mayer discusses Brennan’s complicated history with torture and rendition
• 11:04 – Mayer outlines Brennan’s role in the drone program
• 12:38 – Coll assesses the effectiveness and backlash of drone strikes
• 13:30 – Coll reviews Hillary Clinton’s innovations at State
• 15:10 – Coll on John Kerry’s traditional, “classicist” approach to diplomacy
• 16:52 – Projected cautious, case-by-case U.S. approach to international crises
• 17:36 – Coll draws parallels with Bush 41 and Clinton-era interventions (or lack thereof)

Tone & Style

The conversation is measured, contemplative, and laced with the understated wit and erudition typical of The New Yorker’s editorial staff. The panelists maintain a critical, nonpartisan lens, weighing institutional and historical dynamics over personality-driven sound bites.

For listeners wanting a deep-dive into how Obama’s new security team may manage America’s global role—and the philosophical debate between intervention and restraint—this discussion offers crucial background, analytical context, and predictions grounded in history and reporting.