Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Ten Years After “The New Jim Crow”

Date: January 20, 2020
Host: David Remnick with guest Michelle Alexander
Theme: Reflecting on the decade since the publication of The New Jim Crow, its impact, and the ongoing reality of mass incarceration as a system of racial and social control in America.

Episode Overview

This episode marks the tenth anniversary of Michelle Alexander’s groundbreaking book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Host David Remnick interviews Alexander, exploring the book’s origins, its core arguments, and its broader implications for criminal justice reform, racial dynamics, and American democracy. The conversation weaves Alexander's personal journey from civil rights attorney to public intellectual and considers both the ethical and practical facets of dismantling mass incarceration.

Key Topics and Insights

1. Origins of The New Jim Crow

(01:37–03:27)

• Personal Awakening: Alexander describes her shift from understanding the criminal justice system as biased to seeing it as a form of "new racial and social control."
• Quote:

  “I was well aware that there was bias in our criminal justice system... but what I didn’t understand was that a new system of racial and social control had been born again in America, a system eerily reminiscent to those that we had left behind.”
  —Michelle Alexander (01:52)

• Catalyst: A powerful story about representing clients as a civil rights attorney, specifically a young Black man who, after taking a plea for a drug felony, found himself permanently shut out of basic rights and opportunities (e.g., jobs, housing, food assistance).
• Quote:

  “What’s to become of me? I can’t even get food stamps because of my drug felony... Good luck finding one young black man in my neighborhood they haven’t gotten to yet. They’ve gotten to us already.”
  —Anonymous plaintiff, paraphrased by Michelle Alexander (05:36)

2. Systemic Intent and the "New Jim Crow"

(06:38–08:08)

• Conscious Design or Consequence?: Alexander discusses the "Southern strategy"—deliberate political efforts to appeal to racial resentments and reverse civil rights gains.

• Quote:

  “That Southern strategy was in part about turning the clock back on racial progress. So the drug war was in part politically motivated, a backlash to the civil rights movement.”
  —Michelle Alexander (06:50)

• She also notes the influence of both conscious and unconscious biases, as well as media-driven racial stereotypes, in the development of modern mass incarceration.

3. Scope and Mechanics of Mass Incarceration

(08:08–09:35)

• Critique of Focus: Responds to critics (like John Pfaff) arguing that most prisoners are held for violent offenses, not drug charges.
• Expansion Beyond Prisons: Emphasizes mass incarceration as a system that includes probation, parole, and enduring second-class status.
• Quote:

  “Twice as many people on probation or parole today than are locked in prisons or jails. And that is the new Jim Crow.”
  —Michelle Alexander (09:18)

4. Contemporary Criminal Justice Reform Movements

(09:35–10:22)

• Democratic Candidates: Finds the platforms of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders most "encouraging" for their comprehensive approach, preferring "transformation" over mere "reform."
• Quote:

  “For me personally, I’m less interested in the reform of our criminal justice system than its transformation.”
  —Michelle Alexander (10:07)

5. Economic Incentives and Corporate Profiteering

(10:22–11:19)

• Prison Economics: Notes that 70% of prisons are in rural areas, boosting local economies—thus creating major political and economic barriers to reform.
• Beyond Private Prisons: The profit motive extends to industries like private healthcare, electronic monitoring, and more.
• Electronic Monitoring ("e-carceration"): Alexander warns of the rise of "digital prisons”—high-tech forms of surveillance for millions, not just those in jail.
• Quote:

  “It will be cheaper to surveil and control millions of people electronically than through old-fashioned brick and mortar prisons.”
  —Michelle Alexander (11:39)

6. The Trap of Technological "Reform"

(11:51–12:49)

• False Progress: Argues that electronic monitoring is not necessarily humane progress—instead, true reform means investment in education, healthcare, and drug treatment, not “new high-tech means of monitoring, surveillance and control.”
• Quote:

  “Progress would be decriminalizing our communities. Massive investments in education, in drug treatment, in healthcare, in trauma support. Not new high-tech means of monitoring, surveillance and control for larger and larger segments of our population.”
  —Michelle Alexander (12:25)

7. Spiritual and Moral Dimensions of Justice

(12:49–14:22)

• Personal Evolution and Teaching: Alexander now teaches at Union Theological Seminary. She frames mass incarceration as not just legal and political, but a “profound spiritual and moral crisis.”
• Quote:

  “Ultimately these questions—what does it mean to be in right relationship to one another? Who belongs in a community, in a nation? How should we treat the least advantaged? How do we repair harm in a constructive and responsible way?”
  —Michelle Alexander (13:11)

• Upcoming Book: Alexander is working on a new, more personal book focused on the need for a “moral and spiritual revolution,” not just a political one.
• Quote:

  “A moral and spiritual revolution is also required of us now.”
  —Michelle Alexander (14:10)

Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 01:52 | “A new system of racial and social control had been born again in America…” | Michelle Alexander | | 05:36 | “What’s to become of me?... You know I can’t even get food stamps because of my drug felony.” | Plaintiff (via Alexander) | | 06:50 | “The drug war was in part politically motivated, a backlash to the civil rights movement.” | Michelle Alexander | | 09:18 | “Twice as many people on probation or parole today than are locked in prisons or jails.” | Michelle Alexander | | 10:07 | “I’m less interested in the reform of our criminal justice system than its transformation.” | Michelle Alexander | | 11:39 | “It will be cheaper to surveil and control millions of people electronically than through old-fashioned brick and mortar prisons.” | Michelle Alexander | | 12:25 | “Progress would be decriminalizing our communities...not new high-tech means of monitoring...” | Michelle Alexander | | 13:11 | “It’s a profound spiritual and moral crisis as well.” | Michelle Alexander | | 14:10 | “A moral and spiritual revolution is also required of us now.” | Michelle Alexander |

Conclusion

This episode underscores the enduring relevance of The New Jim Crow and the deep entrenchment of mass incarceration policies in American society. Michelle Alexander persuasively frames the issue as both a structural and spiritual crisis, challenging listeners to envision not just reform, but fundamental transformation of systems of control, justice, and community.

For listeners who want to revisit or share key points:

• Origins of Alexander’s awakening to the scope of mass incarceration: (01:37–06:38)
• Discussion of conscious strategy in criminal justice: (06:38–08:08)
• Scope, criticism, and definition of the “new Jim Crow”: (08:08–09:35)
• Criminal justice reform and Democratic candidates: (09:35–10:22)
• Economic drivers and the profit motive in incarceration: (10:22–11:19)
• The rise of “e-carceration” and critique of technological reform: (11:19–12:49)
• Spiritual dimension and Alexander’s personal evolution: (12:49–14:22)