Ten Years After “The New Jim Crow”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Ten Years After “The New Jim Crow”

Date: January 20, 2020
Host: David Remnick with guest Michelle Alexander
Theme: Reflecting on the decade since the publication of The New Jim Crow, its impact, and the ongoing reality of mass incarceration as a system of racial and social control in America.

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the tenth anniversary of Michelle Alexander’s groundbreaking book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Host David Remnick interviews Alexander, exploring the book’s origins, its core arguments, and its broader implications for criminal justice reform, racial dynamics, and American democracy. The conversation weaves Alexander's personal journey from civil rights attorney to public intellectual and considers both the ethical and practical facets of dismantling mass incarceration.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Origins of The New Jim Crow

(01:37–03:27)

• Personal Awakening: Alexander describes her shift from understanding the criminal justice system as biased to seeing it as a form of "new racial and social control."
• Quote:

  “I was well aware that there was bias in our criminal justice system... but what I didn’t understand was that a new system of racial and social control had been born again in America, a system eerily reminiscent to those that we had left behind.”
  —Michelle Alexander (01:52)

• Catalyst: A powerful story about representing clients as a civil rights attorney, specifically a young Black man who, after taking a plea for a drug felony, found himself permanently shut out of basic rights and opportunities (e.g., jobs, housing, food assistance).
• Quote:

  “What’s to become of me? I can’t even get food stamps because of my drug felony... Good luck finding one young black man in my neighborhood they haven’t gotten to yet. They’ve gotten to us already.”
  —Anonymous plaintiff, paraphrased by Michelle Alexander (05:36)

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2. Systemic Intent and the "New Jim Crow"

(06:38–08:08)

• Conscious Design or Consequence?: Alexander discusses the "Southern strategy"—deliberate political efforts to appeal to racial resentments and reverse civil rights gains.

• Quote:

  “That Southern strategy was in part about turning the clock back on racial progress. So the drug war was in part politically motivated, a backlash to the civil rights movement.”
  —Michelle Alexander (06:50)

• She also notes the influence of both conscious and unconscious biases, as well as media-driven racial stereotypes, in the development of modern mass incarceration.

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3. Scope and Mechanics of Mass Incarceration

(08:08–09:35)

• Critique of Focus: Responds to critics (like John Pfaff) arguing that most prisoners are held for violent offenses, not drug charges.
• Expansion Beyond Prisons: Emphasizes mass incarceration as a system that includes probation, parole, and enduring second-class status.
• Quote:

  “Twice as many people on probation or parole today than are locked in prisons or jails. And that is the new Jim Crow.”
  —Michelle Alexander (09:18)

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4. Contemporary Criminal Justice Reform Movements

(09:35–10:22)

• Democratic Candidates: Finds the platforms of Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders most "encouraging" for their comprehensive approach, preferring "transformation" over mere "reform."
• Quote:

  “For me personally, I’m less interested in the reform of our criminal justice system than its transformation.”
  —Michelle Alexander (10:07)

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5. Economic Incentives and Corporate Profiteering

(10:22–11:19)

• Prison Economics: Notes that 70% of prisons are in rural areas, boosting local economies—thus creating major political and economic barriers to reform.
• Beyond Private Prisons: The profit motive extends to industries like private healthcare, electronic monitoring, and more.
• Electronic Monitoring ("e-carceration"): Alexander warns of the rise of "digital prisons”—high-tech forms of surveillance for millions, not just those in jail.
• Quote:

  “It will be cheaper to surveil and control millions of people electronically than through old-fashioned brick and mortar prisons.”
  —Michelle Alexander (11:39)

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6. The Trap of Technological "Reform"

(11:51–12:49)

• False Progress: Argues that electronic monitoring is not necessarily humane progress—instead, true reform means investment in education, healthcare, and drug treatment, not “new high-tech means of monitoring, surveillance and control.”
• Quote:

  “Progress would be decriminalizing our communities. Massive investments in education, in drug treatment, in healthcare, in trauma support. Not new high-tech means of monitoring, surveillance and control for larger and larger segments of our population.”
  —Michelle Alexander (12:25)

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7. Spiritual and Moral Dimensions of Justice

(12:49–14:22)

• Personal Evolution and Teaching: Alexander now teaches at Union Theological Seminary. She frames mass incarceration as not just legal and political, but a “profound spiritual and moral crisis.”
• Quote:

  “Ultimately these questions—what does it mean to be in right relationship to one another? Who belongs in a community, in a nation? How should we treat the least advantaged? How do we repair harm in a constructive and responsible way?”
  —Michelle Alexander (13:11)

• Upcoming Book: Alexander is working on a new, more personal book focused on the need for a “moral and spiritual revolution,” not just a political one.
• Quote:

  “A moral and spiritual revolution is also required of us now.”
  —Michelle Alexander (14:10)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 01:52 | “A new system of racial and social control had been born again in America…” | Michelle Alexander | | 05:36 | “What’s to become of me?... You know I can’t even get food stamps because of my drug felony.” | Plaintiff (via Alexander) | | 06:50 | “The drug war was in part politically motivated, a backlash to the civil rights movement.” | Michelle Alexander | | 09:18 | “Twice as many people on probation or parole today than are locked in prisons or jails.” | Michelle Alexander | | 10:07 | “I’m less interested in the reform of our criminal justice system than its transformation.” | Michelle Alexander | | 11:39 | “It will be cheaper to surveil and control millions of people electronically than through old-fashioned brick and mortar prisons.” | Michelle Alexander | | 12:25 | “Progress would be decriminalizing our communities...not new high-tech means of monitoring...” | Michelle Alexander | | 13:11 | “It’s a profound spiritual and moral crisis as well.” | Michelle Alexander | | 14:10 | “A moral and spiritual revolution is also required of us now.” | Michelle Alexander |

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Conclusion

This episode underscores the enduring relevance of The New Jim Crow and the deep entrenchment of mass incarceration policies in American society. Michelle Alexander persuasively frames the issue as both a structural and spiritual crisis, challenging listeners to envision not just reform, but fundamental transformation of systems of control, justice, and community.

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For listeners who want to revisit or share key points:

• Origins of Alexander’s awakening to the scope of mass incarceration: (01:37–06:38)
• Discussion of conscious strategy in criminal justice: (06:38–08:08)
• Scope, criticism, and definition of the “new Jim Crow”: (08:08–09:35)
• Criminal justice reform and Democratic candidates: (09:35–10:22)
• Economic drivers and the profit motive in incarceration: (10:22–11:19)
• The rise of “e-carceration” and critique of technological reform: (11:19–12:49)
• Spiritual dimension and Alexander’s personal evolution: (12:49–14:22)

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Dorothy Wickenden. On today's Politics and More podcast, David Remnick talks with Michelle Alexander, whose bestselling book the New Jim Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness was published a decade ago. The book helped make prison reform a part of the national political debate.

[C]

When the New Jim Crow came out a decade ago, you said that you wrote it for the person I was 10 years ago. So take me back to those times, to that Michelle Alexander and the work you were doing for the aclu. What were you finding out?

[D]

So that would have been 20 years ago from today and back. During those years, I was working as a civil rights lawyer, and I was well aware that there was bias in our criminal justice system, and that bias pervaded all of our political, social, and economic systems. That's why I was a civil rights lawyer. But what I didn't understand was that a new system of racial and social control had been born again in America, a system eerily reminiscent to those that we had left behind. In fact, I was heading to work my first day at the ACLU directing the Racial Justice Project, when I happened to notice a sign posted to a telephone pole that said in large, bold print, the drug war is the new Jim Crow. And I remember thinking to myself, yeah, the criminal justice system is racist in a lot of ways, but doesn't help to make comparisons to Jim Crow. People just think you're crazy. And then I hopped on the bus and headed to my new job. So it was really as a result of representing victims of racial profiling and police brutality that I had a series of experiences that began what I've come to call my awakening.

[C]

What was that awakening like? What were you seeing in a very specific way in your work that where the scales were falling from your eyes in a way?

[D]

Well, there were a number of incidents. You know, partly it was beginning to collect data and coming to see how the police were behaving in radically different ways in poor communities of color than they were in middle class, white or suburban communities. I mean, this wasn't a shock to me in any way, but the scale of it was astonishing. You know, seeing rows of black men lined up against walls being frisked and handcuffed and arrested for extremely minor crimes like loitering or vagrancy or possession of tiny amounts of marijuana. But there was one incident in particular, and it involved a young African American man who walked into my office one day and forever changed the way I viewed myself as a civil. Civil rights lawyer and the system I was up against. He walked in my office carrying a stack of papers a couple of inches thick. He had taken detailed notes of his encounters with the police. And at the time, I was interviewing people for a possible class action suit against the Oakland Police Department. And I thought, wow, maybe we have finally found our dream plaintiff. Maybe this is the one we've been looking for. And then he says something that makes me pause, and I said, did you just say you're a drug felon? And we knew we couldn't put someone on the stand if they had a felony record because we'd be exposing them to cross examination about their prior criminal history and turning it into a mini trial about a young man's criminal past rather than the police conduct. And so I'm looking at him saying, okay, you're a drug felon. And he gets very quiet and says, yeah, yeah, I'm a drug felon. But let me tell you what happened. And he starts telling me this long story about how he'd been framed and drugs have been planted on him, and he becomes more and more agitated and upset. And then finally he becomes enraged and he says, what's to become of me? What's to become of me? And he starts explaining that he had just taken the plea because he was afraid of doing the time. And that, you know, they told him that if he just took the plea, he could just walk out, just walk right out with just felony probation. And he said, but what's to become of me? He's like, I can't get a job anywhere because of my felony record. He's like, do you understand I have to sleep in my grandma's basement at night because I can't even get into public housing with a drug felony. He's like, how am I supposed to take care of myself? How am I supposed to take care of myself as a man? He's like, I can't even feed myself. He was like, do you know I can't even get food stamps because of my drug felony. He says, good luck finding one young black man in my neighborhood. They haven't gotten to yet. They've gotten to us already.

[C]

How conscious was that? How would you argue that it was a conscious decision to establish a successor, in a sense, to Jim Crow and what came before Jim Crow?

[D]

Well, there were mixed motives. And you know, one of the things that I laid out in the book was the history of the Southern strategy, the deliberate political strategy of divide and conquer, of using get tough racial appeals in order to appeal to poor and working class whites, particularly in the south, who were fearful of, of and resentful of the progress that had been made by African Americans since the civil rights movement. That Southern strategy was in part about turning the clock back on racial progress. So the drug war was in part politically motivated strategy, a backlash to the civil rights movement. But it was also a reflection of conscious and unconscious biases fueled by media, media portrayals of drug users. And those racial stereotypes were resonant with the same stereotypes of slaves and folks during the Jim Crow era.

[C]

Michel, some of the scholars that have been in dialogue with you about your book have taken issue with your focus on the war on drugs and nonviolent drug offenses. John Pfaff, in his book Locked in, says that only about 16% of state prisoners are serving time on drug charges, and very few of them, maybe about 5 or 6% of that group, are both low level and non violent.

[D]

It is true that roughly half of the people who are held in state prisons today have been convicted of offenses that are labeled violent. But one of the main points of the new Jim Crow, what I hoped to, to get across was that the system of mass incarceration is not simply about who is behind bars at any particular moment. It is this much larger system, a system that begins when a young person is swept off the street for a minor non violent drug offense like possession of marijuana, branded a criminal or felon, and then released into a permanent second class status. There are twice as many people on probation or parole today than are locked in prisons or jails. Twice as many. And that is the new Jim Crow.

[C]

All the front runner candidates for the Democratic nomination support some form or another of criminal justice reform. Does anybody seem particularly advanced or to your liking?

[D]

Well, I would have to say that, you know, I have found Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, you know, criminal justice platforms to be very encouraging.

[C]

Why is that?

[D]

Because they're taking a comprehensive approach to criminal justice reform and not simply tinkering with the machine by promising to reduce sentencing, for example. And you know, for me personally, I'm less interested in the reform of our criminal justice system than its transformation.

[C]

And yet one of the things that's standing in the way is the fact that a huge number of prisons, 70% in fact, are located in rural communities and go a long way in bolstering the economies of these communities.

[D]

Yes. You know, the profit motive is significant. And very often people think about the profit motive simply in terms of private prisons making money off of caging human beings. However, as the book Prison Profiteers points out, there is a very large range of corporate interests, private interests that make enormous amount of money off of our prison system. Everything from private health care providers to taser gun manufacturers to companies that are now creating these electronic monitors.

[C]

E carceration, you call it.

[D]

Yes. You know, this is one of the most concerning developments to me. The emergence of this system of e carceration or digital prisons, as many activists now call them, where people are now being forced to wear electronic monitors, GPS tracking devices, and it will be cheaper to surveil and control millions of people electronically than through old fashioned brick and mortar prisons.

[C]

What do you say to people who argue that these technological solutions are somehow more humane than prisons and jails?

[D]

Well, you know, certainly most people, myself included, would rather have an electronic monitor, a GPS tracking device attached to my ankle than to be sitting in a literal cage. However, I find it very difficult to call a system of e carceration and the emergence of digital prisons as progress. Progress would be decriminalizing our communities. Massive investments in education, in drug treatment, in health care, in trauma support. That's what our communities need and deserve. Not new high tech means of monitoring, surveillance and control for larger and larger segments of our population.

[C]

Finally, I hope you don't mind if I ask what seems to be a personal, professional question. Your main teaching post has been at an institution that has religion and faith at its center, the Union Theological Seminary. Does that choice represent a change in your thinking on criminal justice or in your own life?

[D]

As I see it, the crisis of mass incarceration is not simply a legal or political problem to be solved, but it's a profound spiritual and moral crisis as well. And I think ultimately these questions of what does it mean to be in right relationship to one another? Who belongs in a community, in a nation? How should we treat the least advantaged? How do we repair harm in a constructive and responsible way?

[C]

Are these questions at the center of a next book?

[D]

Yeah, they are. I'm working on a book that is very different from the New Jim Crow. It's much more personal and is about my journey, going from a liberal civil rights lawyer who was tinkering with the machine to someone who now believes that much more revolutionary change is required. But it's not simply a political revolution. A moral and spiritual revolution is also required of us now.

[C]

Michelle Alexander, thank you so much.

[D]

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

[C]

That was Michelle Alexander, author of the New Jim Crow, which was Originally published in 2010. The ten year anniversary of the book has just been released.

[B]

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[D]

From prx.