Tensions with Mainland China Explode into Violence on the Streets of Hong Kong

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Tensions with Mainland China Explode into Violence on the Streets of Hong Kong
Date: July 25, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (B)
Guest: Jiayang Fan (C), New Yorker staff writer

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Overview

This episode examines the escalating protests in Hong Kong during the summer of 2019, tracing their origins to a controversial extradition bill and situating them within Hong Kong’s ongoing struggle with interference from Mainland China. Host Dorothy Wickenden is joined by Jiayang Fan to discuss not just the recent outbreak of violence, but also the deeper historical, political, and cultural tensions fueling the city’s unrest. The episode covers protest history, the role of Carrie Lam, Beijing’s motivations, mainland and overseas Chinese perceptions, and the international response.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Origins of the 2019 Hong Kong Protests

• The Spark: The Extradition Bill
  • The protests began over a bill allowing extradition from Hong Kong to Mainland China and other jurisdictions, prompted by a sensational murder case in Taiwan involving Hong Kong residents.
  • Jiayang Fan:

    “The grievances underlying the protests have been simmering for quite some time, even years. But the spark…was this highly unpopular and controversial extradition bill…” (02:46)

• Underlying Grievances
  • Long-standing suspicion and resentment toward Beijing’s ongoing encroachment on Hong Kong’s autonomy, legal system, and freedoms.

2. Beijing’s Interests and the Extradition Bill

• The bill is seen by many as aligning perfectly with Beijing’s agenda to extend its political and legal reach into Hong Kong.
• Jiayang Fan:

  “…Hong Kong has become accustomed to living with the independent judiciary, with freedom of the press. These freedoms in recent years have been increasingly encroached upon by the mainland government.” (04:03)

3. Carrie Lam’s Role and Limitations

• Lam, Hong Kong’s Chief Executive, is described as pragmatic but politically constrained, having been selected by a largely pro-Beijing committee rather than direct election.
• Her miscalculation was expected public acceptance of the bill, given its origins from the Taiwan murder case, but she underestimated the public’s response.
• Jiayang Fan:

  "She wasn't directly elected by the people of Hong Kong. She was ushered into office by a committee of people made up largely of pro-Beijing elites… she's caught in this position where Beijing is possibly too embarrassed to let her go..." (05:17)

4. A Pattern of Protest: Hong Kong’s Recent History

• Major moments of resistance:
  • 2003: Opposition to Article 23 (anti-sedition law)
  • 2012: Student protests against “moral education” promoting mainland values
  • 2014: Umbrella Revolution for electoral reform (lasted 79 days, ended in widespread despair)
  • Each movement centers on defending civil liberties and resisting Beijing’s control.
• Jiayang Fan:

  “…what you see here is not a completely new type of protest, but the gathering of resentment and bitterness and feeling of helplessness over the years really, you know, exploding onto the streets this June.” (07:17)

5. Chinese Viewpoints: Propaganda and Envy

• On the Mainland, state censorship and media distortion shape perceptions of the protests, portraying Hong Kongers as violent and ungrateful.
• Mainlanders see Hong Kong as a privileged, glamorous enclave still dissatisfied with their advantages.
• Jiayang Fan:

  “…when I went on Chinese social media… whenever I type in Hong Kong… what you see are pictures of protesters beating police officers. For Mainlanders, they have a very distorted view…” (09:18)

6. Overseas Chinese Reactions

• Chinese students abroad clash over the protests—sometimes violently, as in Australia—driven by competing allegiances and strong propaganda-induced national identity.
• Jiayang Fan:

  “China has ingeniously conflated national identity with personal identity. So when China, the PRC, has attacked, you, 19-year-old English major at NYU, feel that you might be personally attacked..." (12:15)

7. Beijing, the US, and the Fear of Force

• Chinese officials blame the US (and the Trump administration) for meddling, but such claims are seen as propaganda for domestic consumption.
• Jiayang Fan notes the lasting shadow of Tiananmen Square—the implicit threat of military force.
• Jiayang Fan:

  “…when things become unmanageable, an authoritarian government always steps in and crushes it with violence... that's not the question in their mind. It's just a matter of, you know, for the sake of their image, this might not be the right moment…” (15:34)

8. The Trump Administration’s Ambiguous Stance

• Trump publicly praises President Xi’s restraint, but this may be linked to US-China trade negotiations.
• Fan suggests Trump envies Xi’s unchecked authority.
• Jiayang Fan:

  “...the unilateral nature of Xi’s power must… be so enticing to someone like Trump. I mean, he—this is exactly what he would love to have…” (17:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the emotional resonance of the protests:

  • Jiayang Fan:

    “What the Hong Kong people are doing…they're fighting for a vision of what society should be. So when I see what's going on in Hong Kong, as someone who believes in the rule of law and democracy and independent press, I think they're just fighting for the things that I believe in, but they're risking their lives for it.” (14:38)

• On the Chinese government’s bottom line:

  • Jiayang Fan:

    “…for Beijing, it’s obvious, as with Tiananmen… when things become unmanageable, an authoritarian government always steps in and crushes it with violence.” (15:34)

• On Carrie Lam’s predicament:

  • Jiayang Fan:

    “She’s caught in this position where Beijing is possibly too embarrassed to let her go because she’s already the fourth chief since ’97. But she's no longer useful to Beijing, and the city is completely ungovernable under her administration.” (06:21)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:46] — The extradition bill and its origins
• [05:17] — Carrie Lam’s background and political position
• [07:17] — Major protest moments in Hong Kong since 2003
• [09:18] — How Mainlanders perceive the Hong Kong movement
• [12:15] — Clashes among overseas Chinese students
• [14:38] — Reflections on the ideological meaning of the movement
• [15:34] — The Tiananmen legacy and Beijing’s potential for use of force
• [17:12] — Trump’s attitude towards Xi and Hong Kong

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Tone & Style

The conversation is thoughtful, rooted in deep reporting, and reflective about the larger implications for China, Hong Kong, and democratic values globally. Jiayang Fan provides both personal and analytical insights, and the dialogue balances factual developments with broader cultural observation.

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This summary covers the main themes and in-depth insights offered by the July 25, 2019 episode focused on the Hong Kong protests and their broader significance.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and guests about politics. It's Thursday, July 25th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. Hong Kong has been embroiled in mass protests since June. In the most recent incidents this past Sunday, the local police fired rounds of tear gas and rubber bullets on protesters who had vandalized a Chinese government building after an otherwise peaceful march. That evening, a group of masked men attacked protesters and civilians at a train station, injuring 45 people. On Monday, Carrie Lam, the chief executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, condemned both the protesters and the attacks by the men at the train station. And let me make this clear again, violence is not a solution to any problem. Violence will only breed more violence, and.

[C]

At the end of the day, the.

[B]

Whole of Hong Kong and and the people will suffer as a result of the laws of law and order in Hong Kong. Jiang Fan, a New Yorker staff writer, joins me to discuss the protests and the increasingly rancorous relationship between Hong Kong and China. Xiayang welcome back to the program.

[C]

I'm very happy to be here. There's a lot to discuss, so let's begin.

[B]

Maybe take us back to last month when these protests began. What set them off?

[C]

I think it's important to point out that the grievances underlying the protests have been simmering for quite some time, even years. But the spark in this instance was this highly unpopular and controversial extradition bill which would have allowed Hong Kong's government to send people suspected of crimes to jurisdictions with which Hong Kong does not have an agreement, including China. And it began with a very sensational murder in Taiwan. This young Hong Kong couple traveled from Hong Kong to Taiwan during Valentine's Day in Taiwan. The man murdered his lover and then returned to Hong Kong. Taiwan could not extradite him because Taiwan does not have an extradition agreement with Hong Kong. This provided the impetus and this emotional anchor for Carrie Lam, the Chief Executive, to really fast track the passing of this bill.

[B]

The founder of Hong Kong's Democratic Party told you that this bill aligns with Beijing's interests. How so?

[C]

Well, I think for decades now, Beijing recognizes that, that Hong Kong has lived under a different system. And China had hoped, I think, at some point that Hong Kong could become just like another Chinese city, another mainland Chinese city in which the rule of the party is always above the rule of law. But Hong Kong, given its unique history, it's a city that has become accustomed to living with the independent judiciary, with the freedom of the press. And these freedoms in recent years have been increasingly encroached upon by the mainland government. Beijing, I think, probably thinks that this bill is quite convenient in extending Beijing's jurisdiction to Hong Kong, in being able to prosecute dissidents or political activists who were parked in Hong Kong.

[B]

So Carrie Lam and her government did shelve the bill, although it hasn't been killed. Who is she and how much freedom does she have to make political decisions about Hong Kong?

[C]

Carrie Lam is a career civil servant, and she is someone who is not known for her charisma, but has exercised a lot of pragmatism. She knows how to cunningly defer to authority and also to play the political game. In this instance, I think she made a bad miscalculation. She really believed that given the sensational nature of the Taiwan murder that we talked about, she would have a greater backing of the public, or at least they would not revolt against the bill as strongly as they have. Also important to point out that Carrie Lam never really had a mandate. She wasn't directly elected by the people of Hong Kong. She was ushered into office by a committee of people made up largely of pro Beijing elites. So Hong Kong's people have always had doubts about her loyalties. But in order for her to be useful as even a proxy for Mainland China, she has to have the appearance of having the public support of the people. She's caught in this position where Beijing is possibly too embarrassed to let her go because she's already the fourth chief since 97. But she's no longer useful to Beijing, and the city is completely ungovernable under her administration.

[B]

You would think that she could have seen this most recent round of protests coming. I mean, there have been regular protests against Beijing's control. And maybe you could just walk us quickly through the major ones over the last decade or so. They all seem to have to do with how the people of Hong Kong interpret their civil liberties.

[C]

Going back a little bit further to 2003, there was something known as the Anti security law, Article 23. This was a law that was meant to prevent sedition or treason that the government wanted to implement. The people completely rebelled against because it wasn't clear what the parameters of the law would be. And again, if political dissidents and democracy activists would be ensnared in this law, the people took to the streets and they largely prevailed. Then we go to 2012, in which the city government tries to promote moral education for the youngsters. A very, I think, ham handed and clumsy attempt to make Hong Kong people, especially young people, feel like they are a part of the mainland family and that they have to, most importantly, abide by the rules and the mythology of the mainland. And again, people took to the street. And then Most famously in 2014, there was the Umbrella Revolution, which, you know, started as protests about electoral reform. And it drew on for 79 days. It really came to paralyze parts of Hong Kong. It was in national international news. And ultimately it ended, I think, with the sense of overwhelming despair. People were very demoralized. And then we come to the June of this year with extradition bill. And again, what you see here is not a completely new type of protest, but the gathering of resentment and bitterness and feeling of helplessness over the years really, you know, exploding onto the streets. This June.

[B]

How much resentment is there in China about the freedoms that still do exist in Hong Kong?

[C]

So much of what mainlanders see of Hong Kong is filtered through the prism of propaganda. So when I went on Chinese social media for the last few months, for the last two months at least, I've been checking, and whenever I Type in Hong Kong. First of all, you know, some search words like Support Hong Kong or you know, protest against extradition bill have been completely erased. But even when I search the words Hong Kong, what you see are pictures of protesters beating police officers. So for Mainlanders, they have a very distorted view of what's happening in Hong Kong right now. On top of that, you know, Mainlanders have this age old sense that Hong Kongers have it so good and have had it so good for so long. They have much higher quality of life. They have already begun in so many freedoms. They live in this glitzy city, you know, listen to the kind of pop music and go luxury shopping in ways that was unimaginable, you know, 20 years ago. They really envy the health care in Hong Kong. They envied, you know, the education system and the fact that so many Hong Kongers are still taking to the streets. Mainlanders, they think, what are you fighting for? It's so abstract. It does not affect the next meal you eat. It doesn't affect where you sleep.

[D]

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[B]

And what about the millions of Chinese who live and work abroad? Many of them are students who attend Western universities. How do they view all of this?

[C]

So it's very easy for the students abroad when they're reading about Hong Kong to dismiss it as something that's happening really far away from them. But a clash that converged on violence broke out in Australia between pro Hong Kong protesters and mainland students. You had mainland students tearing down the posters and blasting the Chinese national anthem in the faces of these pro Hong Kong students. I think what you're seeing overwhelmingly is this fracturing of allegiances. I mean, I speak as someone who grew up in mainland China until the age of 8 and moved to the States when you were a student and when you were young, you were so ideologically malleable and the communist propaganda machine is so powerful and efficient. I can see how when you see the Hong Kong protests, when you see Western countries condemning what China has done, you may take it as a personal and emotional attack on the place that you've grown up. China has ingeniously conflated national identity with personal identity. So when China, the PRC has attacked you, 19 year old English major at NYU, feel that you might be personally attacked?

[B]

Well, so you may have partly answered my next question, which is I was fascinated to see that China partly blames the Trump administration for the current unrest. And a Chinese spokeswoman said on Tuesday, we can see that US Officials are behind such incidents. Can US Officials honestly tell the world what role they played and what are their aims? We advise the US to withdraw their black hands, but you would think that Chinese would be able to understand that that is propaganda. You know, whatever you might think of Donald Trump.

[C]

Right. I think for the first time, I mean, especially in the age of Twitter, seeing those images of the attacks, I feel personally implicated in a way that I've never felt before. And I'm not from Hong Kong. I've never, you know, really lived there for an extended period of time.

[B]

Implicated in what sense?

[C]

What the Hong Kong people are doing, it's. They're fighting for a vision of what society should be. So when I see what's going on in Hong Kong, as someone who believes in the rule of law and democracy and independent press, I think they're just fighting for the things that I believe in, but they're risking their lives for it. What the Hong Kong people are doing makes you think about what someone like me, a Chinese person, could be doing. And the way that I perhaps have just resigned myself if I were living in China, have resigned myself to this current political system and its reality.

[B]

Well, and you grew up with the memory of Tiananmen Square, and just yesterday, China indicated that it would use military force if necessary, to assert Beijing's control over Hong Kong. So that was a very ominous.

[C]

And to be honest, I think there is this famous recording of Deng Xiaoping, China's paramount leader. You know, through the. Through the 80s and 90s, who, on the question of Hong Kong, he. I don't think. I don't know if he realized that he was on television. He became very impatient with the idea that somehow the PLA troops will remove themselves from Hong Kong. This was in the late 80s, before Hong Kong had returned to mainland rule. He said, of course, Hong Kong is a part of China, and the PLA troops, it is only natural that they have the right to quarter themselves in the city at any time. And any suggestion that this would somehow be up to Hong Kong people and not Beijing is a travesty. And, I mean, there's a recording of this that you can find on YouTube. And I think that is so relevant at this moment, right? Because I think for Beijing, it's obvious, as with Tiananmen, that you mentioned, when things become unmanageable, an authoritarian government always steps in and crushes it with violence. So that's not the question in their mind. It's just a matter of, you know, for the sake of their image, this might not be the right moment. You know, if there are other ways of negotiation that could be better for their image, but that's a card that's always in their pocket and they're willing to play.

[B]

And has Trump said anything to indicate what. What he feels about the demonstrators?

[C]

Trump has praised President Xi Jinping for his very reasonable and responsible handling of the situation, which I wonder, might be a gambit in the trade negotiations that's still ongoing. But I do wonder, you know, given the political situation in the US the unilateral nature of Xi's power must justify, be so enticing to someone like Trump. I mean, he. This is exactly what he would love to have to cut through, you know, the silliness of, you know, the rule of law and really be able to command executive orders.

[B]

Thank you so much, Jiang.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

Xiayang Fan is a staff writer at the New Yorker. This has been the political scene. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker in your podcast app. And find more political analysis and commentary on new yorker.com Feel free to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Our theme music is by Russell Gillespie. This program was produced by Alex barron for new yorker.com with assistance from Kylie Warner. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[C]

America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story.

[D]

From this intersection where the world and America meet.

[C]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

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[C]

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