The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Title: Terrified States of America
Date: February 10, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Ryan Lizza (New Yorker Washington Correspondent)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden is joined by Ryan Lizza to discuss the enduring political legacy of September 11, the use of fear as a political tool, and how Donald Trump’s presidency reorients both America’s counterterrorism stance and traditional checks and balances. The conversation dissects the move from the Bush doctrine through the Obama years and into Trump’s controversial executive order on immigration, and explores the reaction from government institutions, the judiciary, Congress, and the broader constitutional framework.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of the U.S. "War on Terror" Doctrine

• Opening Context:

  • Wickenden frames the discussion with George W. Bush’s 2001 post-9/11 address, noting its impact on American policy and rhetoric around terrorism.
  • Audio excerpt of Bush:

    "These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life... With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends." ([01:44])

• Trump's Continuation & Intensification:

  • Trump’s rhetoric at MacDill Air Force Base is compared, with focus on the use of fear and claims about media underreporting attacks:

    "It's gotten to a point where it's not even being reported. And in many cases, the very, very dishonest press doesn't want to report it." ([02:31])

2. From Bush to Obama to Trump: Policy Shifts

• Ryan Lizza’s Context:
  • Bush and, later, Obama recognized and acted against the excesses post-9/11; Obama sought to "roll back" many Bush-era programs.
  • Trump, conversely, is portrayed as impulsive, lacking legal nuance, and influenced by Islamophobic advisors:

    "If you think about what he said about Muslims, simply bigoted." ([04:07])

  • Role of Steve Bannon:

    "He has surrounded himself with a group of people who have just overthrown the... view that we'd have to do everything in our power not to turn a fight against terrorism into a religious war." ([05:20])

3. Psychology of Fear in U.S. Leadership

• Changing Political Playbook:
  • Lizza observes that while optimism used to be key to winning campaigns, Trump’s most central speeches were notably dark:

    "His convention speech and his inaugural address... were the darkest addresses of his campaign." ([06:09])

  • Analysis reveals actual numbers: post-9/11 terror attacks have been sparse, and most attackers were U.S. citizens or residents, not refugees.

    "That's why, you know, most counterterrorism people you talk to look at what Trump did, and it's like, this is banning people from these seven countries, stopping the refugee program. There's no problem that this is actually solving." ([07:39])

4. Expert and Institutional Warnings

• Inside the Security Community:
  • Even conservative legal experts and former Bush officials are alarmed.

    "The common thread in all of these accounts is... Trump’s remedy here with the executive order is not actually addressing something that is a significant threat." ([08:27])

  • Concern arises over what policies might emerge in the event of another attack:
    • Potential revival of CIA black sites, torture (“enhanced interrogations”), warrantless surveillance, or further legal extremes.

    "Maybe more scary is a domestic warrantless surveillance regime and maybe some loosening of the FISA regime..." ([09:24])

5. Clash with the Judiciary

• Legal Showdown:
  • The Ninth Circuit rejected the administration’s claims regarding executive authority over security and immigration:

    "They basically said that the administration didn't bring any legal arguments to the table..." ([10:09])

  • The administration’s broad claim—that courts have no right to review presidential actions in these spheres—was “laughed at” by judges.
  • Possible legal precedents could limit both current and future presidential powers, especially over immigration.

    "...if this case goes any further, it's going to set into place restrictions on Trump’s powers... that are far worse than anyone imagined." ([11:50])

6. Congressional Response and Republican Dynamics

• GOP Calculations & Deals:

  • Lizza describes how Republican leaders like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell have made pragmatic deals to get their core priorities—Supreme Court justice, tax reform, deregulation—while tolerating Trump’s behavior:

    "There’s a very obvious deal that was struck. If Trump will sign those things, then all of the other things... will be worth it." ([14:17])

  • Contrast drawn between public dissenters (e.g., McCain and Graham on Russia) and silent critics.

• Oversight Examples:

  • Small but notable moves toward congressional oversight, e.g., bipartisan call for disciplinary action against Kellyanne Conway for ethics violations.

    "...a minor example of Congress stepping in and doing a little bit of oversight..." ([16:22])

7. The State of American Democracy and Institutional Resilience

• Constitutional Safeguards:
  • Wickenden asks Lizza to review what constitutional and institutional checks exist:

    "We do have a Constitution... what protections the Constitution offers to curb a president who appears to be intent on creating an autocracy." ([17:35])

  • Lizza references Masha Gessen’s advice not to be “fooled by small signs of normalcy,” yet acknowledges some signs that democracy still functions:

    "When the court issued this stay... the State Department, the Department of Homeland Security, they abided by it. Now, that's a really low bar... but that is a sign that our democracy is not completely on the verge of collapse." ([18:33])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s use of fear:

  "The White House’s absolute obsession and mission to get the American public to focus on terrorism as an existential threat. I find mind-boggling."
  — Ryan Lizza ([06:22])

• On policy and actual risk:

  "Those 12 people who committed those 10 attacks since 9/11 were all either American citizens or permanent residents because, you know, it's very hard to get into the United States."
  — Ryan Lizza ([07:26])

• On the legal showdown:

  "...this is where we get into scary arguments and what happens after a terrorist attack. One of the arguments that the Trump administration made to the court was that the court did not have reviewability."
  — Ryan Lizza ([10:27])

• On constitutional stability:

  "...that is a sign that our democracy is not completely on the verge of collapse."
  — Ryan Lizza ([18:37])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:16] — Introduction and context of post-9/11 America
• [01:44] — Bush’s 2001 ‘War on Terror’ address (audio)
• [02:31] — Trump’s MacDill Air Force Base remarks (audio)
• [03:15] — Discussion starts: Bush, Obama, Trump counterterrorism shifts
• [05:14] — Trump's bigoted rhetoric and the role of Bannon
• [06:09] — The psychology of fear and political strategy in 2017
• [08:01] — Views of security officials, experts, and policy efficacy
• [10:09] — Trump administration versus the judiciary
• [12:24] — Neil Gorsuch’s disapproval of Trump’s attacks on judges
• [14:04] — Congressional alignment and leadership dynamics
• [15:05] — Outliers within the GOP (McCain, Graham)
• [17:05] — Threats to democracy and Masha Gessen’s guidance
• [17:35] — The Constitution’s role in checking presidential power
• [18:47] — Episode closes

Conclusion

This episode presents a sweeping, sober look at how fear has been used across administrations to justify shifts in security policy and presidential power—culminating in what Ryan Lizza and Dorothy Wickenden see as a critical moment of constitutional testing in the Trump era. Their discussion is both historically grounded and attuned to the legal, psychological, and institutional stakes of the moment, emphasizing the enduring tension between security and democracy in America.