Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: The Battle Over Presidential Records, from Nixon to Trump
Host: Tyler Foggatt
Guest: Jill Lepore (Harvard historian, New Yorker staff writer)
Release Date: June 14, 2023
Overview
This episode explores the fraught history of presidential records in the United States, focusing on Donald Trump’s handling of classified materials after leaving office and placing the ongoing scandal in historical context. Host Tyler Foggatt speaks with historian Jill Lepore about the evolution of presidential records practices, how Trump’s case compares to those of past presidents, the limits of the law, the risks of political prosecution, and the broader stakes for democracy and historical truth.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump and the Presidential Records: Historical Context
- Initial Concern: Lepore began worrying about Trump’s approach to records due to his disregard for government norms.
- “Trump thinks everything is personal property. So I was just worried...if anyone ever wants to find out what he did as president, it seemed to me it would be difficult to do because there was no reason to believe that he would abide by the Presidential Records Act.”
— Jill Lepore [02:19]
- “Trump thinks everything is personal property. So I was just worried...if anyone ever wants to find out what he did as president, it seemed to me it would be difficult to do because there was no reason to believe that he would abide by the Presidential Records Act.”
- Photograph of Boxes: The recent indictment revealed the haphazard storage of records; Lepore finds humor and alarm in the scene.
- “The photograph of the boxes in the glitzy shower beneath the glass chandelier, I mean, it's... cockamamie, right?”
— Jill Lepore [02:19]
- “The photograph of the boxes in the glitzy shower beneath the glass chandelier, I mean, it's... cockamamie, right?”
2. The Law’s Evolution: Private Papers vs. Public Records
- Federal Records Act (1950s): Initially didn’t cover the presidency.
- Presidential Records Act (1978): Passed after Watergate, establishing presidential documents as public property, not personal.
- Supreme Court Exemption: Justices’ papers still considered private.
- “There's no such provision for the Supreme Court. So Supreme Court Justices papers are their personal property still the way it used to be for the president before Nixon.”
— Jill Lepore [03:36]
- “There's no such provision for the Supreme Court. So Supreme Court Justices papers are their personal property still the way it used to be for the president before Nixon.”
3. Pre-Law Era: Destruction, Legacy, and Lack of Enforcement
- Early presidents (like Washington) often destroyed or kept papers for legacy’s sake—with no legal consequences.
- “A lot of them are like, my daughter started the fire in the backyard. Or like, we got two garbage bins... but on the other hand, it wasn’t illegal.”
— Jill Lepore [07:36]
- “A lot of them are like, my daughter started the fire in the backyard. Or like, we got two garbage bins... but on the other hand, it wasn’t illegal.”
- The battle for possession of these papers became an issue once historians wanted to preserve history (late 19th century).
4. Partial Victory for Historians
-
Presidential Records Act increased transparency, but presidents still maneuver around legal requirements.
- “Presidents evade this requirement all the time.... devising new ways to keep records and then arguing that these records don't fall under the provisions... But... before presidents were required to turn their papers over, people were more frank on paper.”
— Jill Lepore [09:06]
- “Presidents evade this requirement all the time.... devising new ways to keep records and then arguing that these records don't fall under the provisions... But... before presidents were required to turn their papers over, people were more frank on paper.”
-
Radical transparency makes officials less candid; more conversations go undocumented.
5. Classified Documents: Symbolic vs. Operational Importance
- In modern times, documents are heavily duplicated—digitally and on paper—reducing the impact on governance.
- “I don't think that Biden needs these documents to know what our attack plan is for Iran... The consequences for the historical record are much less than we might think.”
— Jill Lepore [11:28]
- “I don't think that Biden needs these documents to know what our attack plan is for Iran... The consequences for the historical record are much less than we might think.”
- Still, the integrity of the office and the public’s right to know remain key.
6. Why the Trump Case Is Significant
- Many minimize the scandal by pointing to common classified document mishandling—but Lepore draws a distinction.
- “If the allegations in the indictment are proven, there’s nothing inadvertent about this violation of the Espionage Act.... these documents were... shuffled around and hidden, and people were lied to.” — Jill Lepore [13:48]
- The scale and intent are both different from previous incidents.
7. Legal and Political Consequences
-
Historically, mishandling by lower officials has resulted in prosecution; Trump is unlikely to face prison.
- “Trump's not going to prison over this... I think it's closer to something like the David Petraeus [case]... two years of probation and a $40,000 fine.”
— Jill Lepore [16:40]
- “Trump's not going to prison over this... I think it's closer to something like the David Petraeus [case]... two years of probation and a $40,000 fine.”
-
Multiple indictments against former presidents are destabilizing, but necessary if the law is broken.
- “It is a terrible thing to live in a country where, when people leave office, they are prosecuted by their political enemies.... But you can't not file criminal charges against someone who has broken the law because it's going to be bad for you politically.”
— Jill Lepore [18:06, 19:51]
- “It is a terrible thing to live in a country where, when people leave office, they are prosecuted by their political enemies.... But you can't not file criminal charges against someone who has broken the law because it's going to be bad for you politically.”
8. What Sets Trump Apart?
-
She recounts a Watergate-era historian study: only Nixon organized a conspiracy to cover up evidence of their own misconduct before Trump.
- “When people call up and say, has this ever happened before Trump? The answer is almost always no. No, this is Trump.”
— Jill Lepore [25:37]
- “When people call up and say, has this ever happened before Trump? The answer is almost always no. No, this is Trump.”
-
Trump’s willful defiance is unique; he and his team fully understood their obligations.
- “There’s a hugely abundant documentary trail that tells us that Trump and his administration entirely understood the necessity of preserving these records... So there’s the willfulness piece that seems quite different.”
— Jill Lepore [26:42]
- “There’s a hugely abundant documentary trail that tells us that Trump and his administration entirely understood the necessity of preserving these records... So there’s the willfulness piece that seems quite different.”
9. Motivation: Bragging Rights and Self-Aggrandizement
- Evidence suggests Trump’s motives are personal—“bragging rights,” maintaining power, and possibly even profiteering.
- “The idea that, in order to feel like a potent man, Trump needs to be able to pull out these classified documents and say, lookie, lookie, what a powerful person I am.”
— Jill Lepore [29:35]
- “The idea that, in order to feel like a potent man, Trump needs to be able to pull out these classified documents and say, lookie, lookie, what a powerful person I am.”
10. The Former President’s Responsibility
-
Most former presidents respect their obligation to keep state secrets, and there's an expectation that they won’t reveal sensitive information.
- “We should assume that no one would ever do that, and we should still assume that.”
— Jill Lepore [32:02]
- “We should assume that no one would ever do that, and we should still assume that.”
-
Lepore’s preferred post-presidency models: John Quincy Adams and Jimmy Carter, for their public service.
11. Controlling the Narrative & The Historical Record
- Trump’s use of NDAs, intimidation of witnesses, and obsessive control is likened to historical document destruction.
- “The ability, obsessive, fussy, and ultimately entirely impotent attempt to control the historical record of this country... is a feature of a really deep insecurity and pathology about the country that we actually live in now.”
— Jill Lepore [34:33]
- “The ability, obsessive, fussy, and ultimately entirely impotent attempt to control the historical record of this country... is a feature of a really deep insecurity and pathology about the country that we actually live in now.”
- Indictments, however painful, are attempts to reaffirm objectivity and truth in the historical record.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“I compulsively delete my email. I can't stand the idea that email exists.”
— Jill Lepore, on document destruction, [07:55] -
“Historians are terrible prophets, and so we should never be asked about what's going to happen.”
— Jill Lepore, on predictions, [17:19] -
“Not everything comes down to what's good politically for your political party. I just find it bizarre that Trump gets away with saying Democrats are doing this for political reasons. It really only hurts the Democrats.”
— Jill Lepore [19:51] -
“None of these guys in the office of the President had headed a conspiracy to cover up evidence of malfeasance that they themselves had actually commissioned. In any case... the answer was no. Like... this is Trump.”
— Jill Lepore [26:12, 25:37] -
“There is a past and it exists. And there are documents that will tell us, and there’s evidence ... that can be deliberated, and there are conclusions ... no matter what you do.”
— Jill Lepore, on the historical record, [36:33]
Important Timestamps
- [02:19] — Trump’s view of presidential records as personal property
- [03:36] — Origin and impact of the Presidential Records Act (1978)
- [07:36] — Historic presidential destruction of personal papers
- [09:06] — Transparency’s impact on candor in government
- [13:48] — Why Trump’s behavior constitutes a unique scandal
- [16:40] — Expected legal outcomes for Trump versus other officials
- [18:06, 19:51] — The dilemma of prosecuting former presidents
- [25:37] — Historic study: does ‘every president do this?’
- [26:42] — The willfulness of Trump’s noncompliance
- [29:35] — Trump’s motives: power and profit
- [32:02] — The assumed responsibility of former presidents
- [34:33] — Controlling the narrative and the fight over the historical record
- [36:33] — The importance of preserving an accurate record, despite attempts at manipulation
Tone and Takeaway
Jill Lepore brings a historian’s precision and skepticism, mixing a wry sense of humor with deep concern for the precedent Trump’s actions set. The conversation unpacks the tension between transparency and candor, the challenge of enforcement, and the broader stakes for law, history, and national stability.
Recommended for: Listeners interested in presidential history, American law and politics, the Trump investigations, and the importance of government transparency.